England National Health Service to stop supplying puberty blockers for children at gender identity clinics

[Saint Frankenstein]

Do you have examples of factual errors made in the link provided?

Er, they basically have dismissed the entire concept of mental illness by saying it's just made up by the DSM.

"But Gender Dysphoria itself is not real. It has no clinical or evidentiary basis. It is a false construct, created ex nihilo and first published in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM), 5th edition, in October 2013. We psychologists should not be involved in any of it."

^See?

This person is a total *******. I'm a transsexual and can tell you for a fact it's real.

 

[icehorse]

Er, they basically have dismissed the entire concept of mental illness by saying it's just made up by the DSM.

"But Gender Dysphoria itself is not real. It has no clinical or evidentiary basis. It is a false construct, created ex nihilo and first published in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM), 5th edition, in October 2013. We psychologists should not be involved in any of it."

^See?

This person is a total *******. I'm a transsexual and can tell you for a fact it's real.

But as has been described earlier in this thread, GD is not the same as transsexualism, correct?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But as has been described earlier in this thread, GD is not the same as transsexualism, correct?

It's the main symptom of transsexualism. It's the distress with our physical sex that drives us to transition, so our bodies and perception of self as a man or woman are more in alignment.

 

[Argentbear]

Gen

Yeah , in actuality it's kind of rare, but it does happen. Just not as much as a few extremely vocal people are saying nowadays.

Gender dysphoria is an anxiety disorder that individuals who are trans can have.

 

[Argentbear]

I provided several examples earlier, but again: not establishing informed consent, and doing ad hoc experiments on patients.

and is either of these things actually happening?

And again, direct evidence, from internal WPATH communications, back up these claims, and can be found in the recently published "WPATH files".

Right-wing activist Michael Shellenberger released what he " “the WPATH Files” – a series of heavily decontextualised screenshots of chats from the internal forums of the WPATH – the World Professional Association for Transgender Health.

The report is hosted on the website of Environmental Progress as an analysis by Mia Hughes, where the screenshots are preceded by over 35,000 words of what can only be politely described as an editorial rant from Shellenberger. ... the actual screenshots are medical professions discussing edge cases in gender-affirming healthcare concerning fertility, libido, and fatality risks – as is common in ALL fields of medicine.
(and edge case in medicine is a hypothetical of something, that should not be considered when forming an opinion about it)

the screenshots are just normal risk-assessment conversations between doctors that is not unique to gender-affirming healthcare.
Journalist Erin Reed performed a thorough fact check of the document, and found 216 instances of “factual inaccuracies, erroneous citations, misinterpretations of what is leaked, and purposeful omissions contradicting the author’s central editorialized claims.

 

[Argentbear]

Do you have examples of factual errors made in the link provided?

we can start with the simple fact that who ever wrote this doesn't know what gender dysphoria actually is.

 

[Argentbear]

But as has been described earlier in this thread, GD is not the same as transsexualism, correct?

you asked for examples of false information and you got it

 

[icehorse]

we can start with the simple fact that who ever wrote this doesn't know what gender dysphoria actually is.

In what way?

the screenshots are just normal risk-assessment conversations between doctors that is not unique to gender-affirming healthcare.
Journalist Erin Reed performed a thorough fact check of the document, and found 216 instances of “factual inaccuracies, erroneous citations, misinterpretations of what is leaked, and purposeful omissions contradicting the author’s central editorialized claims.

And yet WPATH officials have not pushed back...

 

[McBell]

Yes, and all of these organizations rely on WPATH, and recently the world has been given strong evidence that WPATH does bad science and bad medicine. Again, skim through the WPATH files.

WPATH’s credibility has already been challenged, most recently by the Cass Review which found that WPATH guidelines lacked developmental rigour. The Cass Review said that the WPATH Standards of Care version 8 (SOC8) overstated the strength of the evidence in making its recommendations.​

​

Never one to be bogged down by reality, WPATH blocked researchers from publishing their findings, and went on to release updated standards of care in support of child medical transitions. The development comes after a deluge of evidence earlier this year revealed that WPATH and its members knowingly pushed irreversible and unproven interventions onto minors without being able to obtain meaningful consent.​

​

the list goes on and on about how sketchy the self proclaimed, self regulated WPATH organization is (not)...

So your reliance on a sketchy organizations reports does not hold as much water as you would like to believe.

 

[icehorse]

So your reliance on a sketchy organizations reports does not hold as much water as you would like to believe.

I don't think you've quite got the right idea here. These documents were released by a whistle blower.

 

[Argentbear]

I don't think you've quite got the right idea here. These documents were released by a whistle blower.

whistleblowing on what? Cropped, often anonymous, out of context posts from a public board involving hypothetical situations?

 

[Magic Man]

How would you characterize it? It would appear that advocates of GAC agree that some combination of talk therapy, dangerous, irreversible drugs, and perhaps surgeries are necessary or else patients will be unhappy and perhaps their suicide risk goes up. (BTW, I think the evidence for the suicide claim is also weak.) I understand that mental health conditions can be stigmatizing, but we don't pretend they don't exist do we?

Hey, we're doing this again, huh? All drugs are dangerous, and a good number have irreversible effects. Stop using loaded language. If you can't form an argument without dishonestly appealing to emotion, then don't make an argument.

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, and all of these organizations rely on WPATH, and recently the world has been given strong evidence that WPATH does bad science and bad medicine. Again, skim through the WPATH files.

No, the world was given edited, bad supposed evidence of wrong-doing by WPATH. In reality it was just a hit piece by multiple anti-trans activists who did the same thing James O'Keefe did for a long time. The only people who take those "files" seriously are people like you who are already on the anti-trans wagon.

 

[Magic Man]

I provided several examples earlier, but again: not establishing informed consent, and doing ad hoc experiments on patients.

And again, direct evidence, from internal WPATH communications, back up these claims, and can be found in the recently published "WPATH files".

No, they do not. The discussion they were having was them expressing frustration that patients would come in and want certain things without fully understanding the things they wanted. The doctors were the ones who really wanted to inform the patients so they could fully understand and know exactly what they were getting into. They weren't trying to perform procedures by deviously not establishing informed consent. And they were at all performing ad hoc experiments on patients.

 

[Magic Man]

In what way?


And yet WPATH officials have not pushed back...

Because that would just give the impression that there's any reason to take the "WPATH files" at all seriously. Ignoring obviously ridiculous anti-trans propaganda is a better way to go.

 

[McBell]

I don't think you've quite got the right idea here.

That is entirely possible.

These documents were released by a whistle blower.

Hmmmm.

 

[Watchmen]

The evidence is in. All these puberty blockers and hormone therapies are actually harmful and make things worse, not better. I applaud the European nations that are following the science and chastise America’s blind wokeism.

 

[icehorse]

Hey, we're doing this again, huh? All drugs are dangerous, and a good number have irreversible effects. Stop using loaded language. If you can't form an argument without dishonestly appealing to emotion, then don't make an argument.

Indeed many drugs are dangerous and have side effects. AND, in general those drugs are used ONLY because they work to resolve a more dire medical condition.

The difference with the drugs associated with GAC is that there is no quality evidence that they work. This is the point you seem to continue to miss

No, the world was given edited, bad supposed evidence of wrong-doing by WPATH. In reality it was just a hit piece by multiple anti-trans activists

No, the whistle blowers gave the world a ream of evidence for anyone to read / watch and draw their own conclusions.

Because that would just give the impression that there's any reason to take the "WPATH files" at all seriously. Ignoring obviously ridiculous anti-trans propaganda is a better way to go.

No, the concern is over WPATH's "standard of care" and the GAC that uses WPATH as it's baseline. This is not "anti-trans", it's anti-bad-medicine and anti-bad-science.

 

[Argentbear]

The evidence is in. All these puberty blockers and hormone therapies are actually harmful and make things worse, not better. I applaud the European nations that are following the science and chastise America’s blind wokeism.

Achille, C., Taggart, T., Eaton, N.R., Osipoff, J., Tafuri, K., Lane, A., & Wilson, T.A. (2020). Longitudinal impact of gender-affirming endocrine intervention on the mental health and well-being of transgender youths

Chew, D., Anderson, J., Williams, K., May, T., & Pang, K. (2018). Hormonal treatment in young people with gender dysphoria: A systematic review.

Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., Schagen, S.E.E., Steensma, T.D., DeVries, A.L.C., & Delemarre-van de Waal, H.A. (2021). Puberty suppression in gender-dysphoric adolescent: A 22 -year follow-up.

de Vries, A.L.C., Steensma, T.D., Doreleijers, T.A.H., & Cohen-Kettenis, P.T. (2021). Puberty suppression in adolescents with gender identity disorder

Edwards-Leeper, L., Leibowitz, S., & Sangganjanavanich, V.F. (2016). Affirmative practice with transgender and gender nonconforming youth

Gallagher, J.S., Missmer, S.A., Hornstein, M.D., Laufer, M.R., Gordon, C.M., & DiVasta, A.D. (2018). Long-term effects of gonadotropin-releasing agonists

Khatchadourian, K., Amed, S., & Metzer, D.L. (2014). Clinical management of youth with gender dysphoria in Vancouver.

Krishna, K.B., Fuqua, J.S., Rogol, A.D., Klein, K.O., Popovic, J., Houk, C.P., … & Lee, P.A. (2019). Use of gonadotropin-releasing ormone analogs in children

Lynn Rew (2020) Review: Puberty blockers for transgender and gender diverse youth—a critical review of the literature

Olson-Kennedy, J., Chan, Y.-M., Garofalo, R., Spack, N., Chen, D., Clark, L., … & Rosenthal, S. (2019). Impact of early medical treatment for transgender youth:

Ruby Grant, Natalie Amos, Ashleigh Lin, Teddy Cook, Adam O. Hill, Ken Pang, Rachel S. Skinner, Marina Carman, Adam Bourne, (2024) Mental health and wellbeing outcomes associated with social, medical, and legal gender affirmation among trans young people in Australia,

Schagen, S.E.E., Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., Delemarre-van de Waal, H.A., & Hannema, S.E. (2016). Efficacy and safety of gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist treatment to suppress puberty in gender dysphoric adolescents.

Schneider, M.A., Spritzer, P.M., Soll, B.M.B., Fontanari, A.M.V., Carneiro, M., Tovar-Moll, F., … & Lobato, M.I.R. (2017). Brain maturation, cognition and voice pattern in a gender dysphoria case under pubertal suppression.

Turban, J.L. (2017). Transgender youth: The building evidence base for early social transition.

Turban, J.L., King, D., Carswell, J.M., & Keuroghlian, A.S. (2020). Pubertal suppression for transgender youth and risk of suicidal ideation.

Vlot, M.C., Klink, D., den Heijer, M., Blankenstein, M.A., Rotteveel, J., & Heijboer, A. (2017). Effect of pubertal suppression and cross-sex hormone therapy on bone turnover markers and bone mineral apparent density (BMAD) in transgender adolescents

Vrouenraets, L.J.J.J., Fredriks, A.M., Hannema, S.E., Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., & DeVries, M.C. (2015). Early medical treatment of children and adolescents with gender dysphoria

Vrouenraets, L.J.J.J., Fredriks, A.M., Hannema, S.E., Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., & DeVries, M.C. (2016). Perceptions of sex, gender, and puberty suppression: A qualitative analysis of transgender youth

all these studies and hundreds of others say you are wrong.

 

[icehorse]

all these studies and hundreds of others say you are wrong.

And yet, country after country in Europe is concluding that none of the evidence you just provided is of high quality. So perhaps you've just offered a sort of gish gallop?