England National Health Service to stop supplying puberty blockers for children at gender identity clinics

[Argentbear]

Indeed many drugs are dangerous and have side effects. AND, in general those drugs are used ONLY because they work to resolve a more dire medical condition.

The difference with the drugs associated with GAC is that there is no quality evidence that they work. This is the point you seem to continue to miss

There is a huge amount of quality evidence that individuals behind the Cass report chose to ignore.

No, the whistle blowers gave the world a ream of evidence for anyone to read / watch and draw their own conclusions.

No they gave cropped, often anonymous, out of context posts from a public board involving hypothetical situations.

No, the concern is over WPATH's "standard of care" and the GAC that uses WPATH as it's baseline. This is not "anti-trans", it's anti-bad-medicine and anti-bad-science.

I'm sure you've never even looked at the standard of care.

WPATH standard of care

 

[Argentbear]

And yet, country after country in Europe is concluding that none of the evidence you just provided is of high quality. So perhaps you've just offered a sort of gish gallop?

No, Cass rejected studies that didn't come to the conclusion she wanted. She looked at 25 studies, some decades old and rejected more than 150 published studies with the most common reason cited being perceived issues with the sample size of those studies. Yet the studies she used had smaller sample sizes than the majority of the studies she rejected.

 

[Watchmen]

Achille, C., Taggart, T., Eaton, N.R., Osipoff, J., Tafuri, K., Lane, A., & Wilson, T.A. (2020). Longitudinal impact of gender-affirming endocrine intervention on the mental health and well-being of transgender youths

Chew, D., Anderson, J., Williams, K., May, T., & Pang, K. (2018). Hormonal treatment in young people with gender dysphoria: A systematic review.

Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., Schagen, S.E.E., Steensma, T.D., DeVries, A.L.C., & Delemarre-van de Waal, H.A. (2021). Puberty suppression in gender-dysphoric adolescent: A 22 -year follow-up.

de Vries, A.L.C., Steensma, T.D., Doreleijers, T.A.H., & Cohen-Kettenis, P.T. (2021). Puberty suppression in adolescents with gender identity disorder

Edwards-Leeper, L., Leibowitz, S., & Sangganjanavanich, V.F. (2016). Affirmative practice with transgender and gender nonconforming youth

Gallagher, J.S., Missmer, S.A., Hornstein, M.D., Laufer, M.R., Gordon, C.M., & DiVasta, A.D. (2018). Long-term effects of gonadotropin-releasing agonists

Khatchadourian, K., Amed, S., & Metzer, D.L. (2014). Clinical management of youth with gender dysphoria in Vancouver.

Krishna, K.B., Fuqua, J.S., Rogol, A.D., Klein, K.O., Popovic, J., Houk, C.P., … & Lee, P.A. (2019). Use of gonadotropin-releasing ormone analogs in children

Lynn Rew (2020) Review: Puberty blockers for transgender and gender diverse youth—a critical review of the literature

Olson-Kennedy, J., Chan, Y.-M., Garofalo, R., Spack, N., Chen, D., Clark, L., … & Rosenthal, S. (2019). Impact of early medical treatment for transgender youth:

Ruby Grant, Natalie Amos, Ashleigh Lin, Teddy Cook, Adam O. Hill, Ken Pang, Rachel S. Skinner, Marina Carman, Adam Bourne, (2024) Mental health and wellbeing outcomes associated with social, medical, and legal gender affirmation among trans young people in Australia,

Schagen, S.E.E., Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., Delemarre-van de Waal, H.A., & Hannema, S.E. (2016). Efficacy and safety of gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist treatment to suppress puberty in gender dysphoric adolescents.

Schneider, M.A., Spritzer, P.M., Soll, B.M.B., Fontanari, A.M.V., Carneiro, M., Tovar-Moll, F., … & Lobato, M.I.R. (2017). Brain maturation, cognition and voice pattern in a gender dysphoria case under pubertal suppression.

Turban, J.L. (2017). Transgender youth: The building evidence base for early social transition.

Turban, J.L., King, D., Carswell, J.M., & Keuroghlian, A.S. (2020). Pubertal suppression for transgender youth and risk of suicidal ideation.

Vlot, M.C., Klink, D., den Heijer, M., Blankenstein, M.A., Rotteveel, J., & Heijboer, A. (2017). Effect of pubertal suppression and cross-sex hormone therapy on bone turnover markers and bone mineral apparent density (BMAD) in transgender adolescents

Vrouenraets, L.J.J.J., Fredriks, A.M., Hannema, S.E., Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., & DeVries, M.C. (2015). Early medical treatment of children and adolescents with gender dysphoria

Vrouenraets, L.J.J.J., Fredriks, A.M., Hannema, S.E., Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., & DeVries, M.C. (2016). Perceptions of sex, gender, and puberty suppression: A qualitative analysis of transgender youth

all these studies and hundreds of others say you are wrong.

I’m 99.999% certain you didn’t read these. You’re just a champion of Google. So you think America is right and the rest of the world is wrong?

 

[Watchmen]

Achille, C., Taggart, T., Eaton, N.R., Osipoff, J., Tafuri, K., Lane, A., & Wilson, T.A. (2020). Longitudinal impact of gender-affirming endocrine intervention on the mental health and well-being of transgender youths

Chew, D., Anderson, J., Williams, K., May, T., & Pang, K. (2018). Hormonal treatment in young people with gender dysphoria: A systematic review.

Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., Schagen, S.E.E., Steensma, T.D., DeVries, A.L.C., & Delemarre-van de Waal, H.A. (2021). Puberty suppression in gender-dysphoric adolescent: A 22 -year follow-up.

de Vries, A.L.C., Steensma, T.D., Doreleijers, T.A.H., & Cohen-Kettenis, P.T. (2021). Puberty suppression in adolescents with gender identity disorder

Edwards-Leeper, L., Leibowitz, S., & Sangganjanavanich, V.F. (2016). Affirmative practice with transgender and gender nonconforming youth

Gallagher, J.S., Missmer, S.A., Hornstein, M.D., Laufer, M.R., Gordon, C.M., & DiVasta, A.D. (2018). Long-term effects of gonadotropin-releasing agonists

Khatchadourian, K., Amed, S., & Metzer, D.L. (2014). Clinical management of youth with gender dysphoria in Vancouver.

Krishna, K.B., Fuqua, J.S., Rogol, A.D., Klein, K.O., Popovic, J., Houk, C.P., … & Lee, P.A. (2019). Use of gonadotropin-releasing ormone analogs in children

Lynn Rew (2020) Review: Puberty blockers for transgender and gender diverse youth—a critical review of the literature

Olson-Kennedy, J., Chan, Y.-M., Garofalo, R., Spack, N., Chen, D., Clark, L., … & Rosenthal, S. (2019). Impact of early medical treatment for transgender youth:

Ruby Grant, Natalie Amos, Ashleigh Lin, Teddy Cook, Adam O. Hill, Ken Pang, Rachel S. Skinner, Marina Carman, Adam Bourne, (2024) Mental health and wellbeing outcomes associated with social, medical, and legal gender affirmation among trans young people in Australia,

Schagen, S.E.E., Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., Delemarre-van de Waal, H.A., & Hannema, S.E. (2016). Efficacy and safety of gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist treatment to suppress puberty in gender dysphoric adolescents.

Schneider, M.A., Spritzer, P.M., Soll, B.M.B., Fontanari, A.M.V., Carneiro, M., Tovar-Moll, F., … & Lobato, M.I.R. (2017). Brain maturation, cognition and voice pattern in a gender dysphoria case under pubertal suppression.

Turban, J.L. (2017). Transgender youth: The building evidence base for early social transition.

Turban, J.L., King, D., Carswell, J.M., & Keuroghlian, A.S. (2020). Pubertal suppression for transgender youth and risk of suicidal ideation.

Vlot, M.C., Klink, D., den Heijer, M., Blankenstein, M.A., Rotteveel, J., & Heijboer, A. (2017). Effect of pubertal suppression and cross-sex hormone therapy on bone turnover markers and bone mineral apparent density (BMAD) in transgender adolescents

Vrouenraets, L.J.J.J., Fredriks, A.M., Hannema, S.E., Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., & DeVries, M.C. (2015). Early medical treatment of children and adolescents with gender dysphoria

Vrouenraets, L.J.J.J., Fredriks, A.M., Hannema, S.E., Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., & DeVries, M.C. (2016). Perceptions of sex, gender, and puberty suppression: A qualitative analysis of transgender youth

all these studies and hundreds of others say you are wrong.

I just noticed you’re a Quaker. As such, aren’t you borderline anti-science?

 

[icehorse]

No, Cass rejected studies that didn't come to the conclusion she wanted. She looked at 25 studies, some decades old and rejected more than 150 published studies with the most common reason cited being perceived issues with the sample size of those studies. Yet the studies she used had smaller sample sizes than the majority of the studies she rejected.

Again you imply that you know more than the top medical professionals across Europe, hmmm.

 

[McBell]

Researchers at The Integrity Project, from medical and legal experts at the Yale School of Law and Yale School of Medicine, have published a new report this week finding that the Cass Review “obscures key findings, misrepresents its own data, and is rife with misapplications of the scientific method.”​

​

According to McNamara, the Cass Review “levies unsupported assertions about gender identity, gender dysphoria, standard practices, and safety of gender-affirming medical treatments” and “repeats claims that have been disproved by sound evidence.”​

​

The report states that Cass Review contains “serious methodological flaws, including the omission of key findings in the extant body of literature.”​

​

“The Cass Review is an important document for those considering how to remedy the shortage of health services for transgender young people in the UK,” said McNamara. “It is not an authoritative guideline or standard of care, nor is it an accurate restatement of the available medical evidence on the treatment of gender dysphoria."​

​

Yale Report Slams Cass Review: 'Misrepresents Data' on Transgender Youth

The report found that the Cass Review contains “serious methodological flaws, including the omission of key findings.”

www.teenvogue.com

 

[ImmortalFlame]

How would you characterize it? It would appear that advocates of GAC agree that some combination of talk therapy, dangerous, irreversible drugs, and perhaps surgeries are necessary or else patients will be unhappy and perhaps their suicide risk goes up.

Not as a treatment for being trans, but as a treatment for gender dysphoria. They're not the same thing. Stop misrepresenting medicine.

(BTW, I think the evidence for the suicide claim is also weak.)

Well, you are an expert in suicide statistics, after all.

I understand that mental health conditions can be stigmatizing, but we don't pretend they don't exist do we?

We don't call "being trans" a "mental health condition". Would you apply the same logic to being gay?

"Being gay is a mental health condition."
"No, it isn't."
"Now now, I know mental health conditions can be stigmatising, but we can't pretend they don't exist."

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I’m 99.999% certain you didn’t read these. You’re just a champion of Google. So you think America is right and the rest of the world is wrong?

"All the evidence is in! And it says X!"
"Here are dozens of studies that explicitly contradict you and present mountains of evidence against X."
"I bet you didn't even read them! You just Googled that! America bad!"

Great reasoning. Clearly we are dealing with the intellectual cream of the crop in these scientific debates.

I just noticed you’re a Quaker. As such, aren’t you borderline anti-science?

Literal ad hominem.

Good stuff. No doubt I bet your fellow "totally pro-logic, anti fallacy" bedfellows will be incredibly quick to jump on this incredibly obvious, clear and unambiguous example of an ad hominem fallacy in action.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Again you imply that you know more than the top medical professionals across Europe, hmmm.

[Very specific argument about review statistics]
"Oh, so you think you're SOOOO clever, huh??"

I wish I was misrepresenting the level of debate from one side in this particular forum, but this is literally the level of debate going on. One side is clearly and dispassionately forming arguments and presenting facts, studies and evidence, the other side is... this.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

And yet, country after country in Europe is concluding that none of the evidence you just provided is of high quality.

[citation needed]

So perhaps you've just offered a sort of gish gallop?

That's not how a gish gallop works. A gish gallop is when you present a series of specious arguments, not just a series of citations, and a series of citations of scientific studies that all reach a specific conclusion is a perfectly reasonable argument against the argument that "the evidence is in that this specific conclusion is false".

Seriously, if presenting a large number of scientific studies is a "gish gallop", then you literally need to have get the hell out of any debate involving any kind of science.

 

[Argentbear]

Again you imply that you know more than the top medical professionals across Europe, hmmm.

facts remain facts even if you don't like them

 

[Argentbear]

I’m 99.999% certain you didn’t read these. You’re just a champion of Google. So you think America is right and the rest of the world is wrong?

I think hundreds of studies published in peer reviewed journals is pretty damn convincing evidence. Why don't you?

 

[Twilight Hue]

The evidence is in. All these puberty blockers and hormone therapies are actually harmful and make things worse, not better. I applaud the European nations that are following the science and chastise America’s blind wokeism.

Wokeism can be so blind that people will actually call advanced degreed professionals 'quacks' just because they have an opposing opinion on the matter , and are not on board with media drivin popular viewpoints.

 

[Argentbear]

Wokeism can be so blind that people will actually call advanced degreed professionals 'quacks' just because they have an opposing opinion on the matter , and are not on board with media drivin popular viewpoints.

Woke means to be aware of discrimination going on around you

 

[Magic Man]

Indeed many drugs are dangerous and have side effects. AND, in general those drugs are used ONLY because they work to resolve a more dire medical condition.

The difference with the drugs associated with GAC is that there is no quality evidence that they work. This is the point you seem to continue to miss

Don't try to distract here. You don't call other drugs "dangerous and irreversible". You only use that here to demonize these drugs because you're anti-trans.

No, the whistle blowers gave the world a ream of evidence for anyone to read / watch and draw their own conclusions.

No, anti-trans activists produced an extremely slanted collection that only served to dishonestly promote their transphobic agenda.

No, the concern is over WPATH's "standard of care" and the GAC that uses WPATH as it's baseline. This is not "anti-trans", it's anti-bad-medicine and anti-bad-science.

No, the concern is over trans people, which is why the supposed evidence against WPATH is not at all evidence against them, but instead anti-trans propaganda. It is anti-trans, not anti-bad-medicine and anti-bad-science. If it was those things, it wouldn't have to use dishonest tactics to portray a narrative that doesn't exist.

 

[icehorse]

@Magic Man @Argentbear @ImmortalFlame -

I'll end on this note: In general, Europe's healthcare systems are far better than the US's. European countries tend to have not-for-profit, centralized medical authorities, the US does not. The US medical industry lags behind Europe.

In country after country in Europe, GAC is now viewed as being based on WPATH's bad science, the evidence for GAC being effective is all of low quality, and GAC is now being strongly curtailed.

So you're all arguing against top doctors and researchers all across Europe.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

@Magic Man @Argentbear @ImmortalFlame -

I'll end

Oh, good.

 

[Magic Man]

@Magic Man @Argentbear @ImmortalFlame -

I'll end on this note: In general, Europe's healthcare systems are far better than the US's. European countries tend to have not-for-profit, centralized medical authorities, the US does not. The US medical industry lags behind Europe.

In country after country in Europe, GAC is now viewed as being based on WPATH's bad science, the evidence for GAC being effective is all of low quality, and GAC is now being strongly curtailed.

So you're all arguing against top doctors and researchers all across Europe.

I wish you would end on this, but I don't hold out hope for that.

1) GAC involves a lot of different things. The only thing the Cass report suggested didn't have enough evidence yet was puberty blockers and some other drugs. Stop using GAC, when you really mean that one specific thing.

2) WPATH doesn't use bad science. Your propaganda doesn't change that.

3) GAC is not being strongly curtailed, at least not due to science. Here in America, a lot of conservatives are fighting against it, but that's just due to transphobia.

4) No, we're not arguing against top doctors and researchers. We're pointing out what those top doctors and researchers have actually found. You're arguing against them.

 

[BlueIslandGirl]

This is a giant load of crap. It's implying that mental disorders are just completely made up. Which is a load of crap.

PTSD was known about long before 2004. It first appeared in the DSM in around 1980.
Anorexia nervosa and clinical depression have also been around prior to the 2000s.
The rest of the article is just as inaccurate as this claim about PTSD and belongs in the trash.

People really need to stop believing everything they read on X or Twitter or whatever.

You should check out Crazy Like Us: The Globalization of the American Psyche (2011) by Ethan Watters. It describes the PTSD, anorexia and bulimia contagions, along with many others. It's a fascinating read!

 

[Twilight Hue]

Woke means to be aware of discrimination going on around you

No. Woke is an unrealistic obsession over an agenda and usually is emotionally drivin to a point that can be best described as fanatical to the point of hysterics.