England National Health Service to stop supplying puberty blockers for children at gender identity clinics

[ImmortalFlame]

In post #150? Yes. Very ironic.

Do you know what irony is?

Actually, don't bother. I know you don't.

 

[Watchmen]

Do you know what irony is?

Of course. Don’t be a troll.

 

[Watchmen]

Achille, C., Taggart, T., Eaton, N.R., Osipoff, J., Tafuri, K., Lane, A., & Wilson, T.A. (2020). Longitudinal impact of gender-affirming endocrine intervention on the mental health and well-being of transgender youths

Chew, D., Anderson, J., Williams, K., May, T., & Pang, K. (2018). Hormonal treatment in young people with gender dysphoria: A systematic review.

Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., Schagen, S.E.E., Steensma, T.D., DeVries, A.L.C., & Delemarre-van de Waal, H.A. (2021). Puberty suppression in gender-dysphoric adolescent: A 22 -year follow-up.

de Vries, A.L.C., Steensma, T.D., Doreleijers, T.A.H., & Cohen-Kettenis, P.T. (2021). Puberty suppression in adolescents with gender identity disorder

Edwards-Leeper, L., Leibowitz, S., & Sangganjanavanich, V.F. (2016). Affirmative practice with transgender and gender nonconforming youth

Gallagher, J.S., Missmer, S.A., Hornstein, M.D., Laufer, M.R., Gordon, C.M., & DiVasta, A.D. (2018). Long-term effects of gonadotropin-releasing agonists

Khatchadourian, K., Amed, S., & Metzer, D.L. (2014). Clinical management of youth with gender dysphoria in Vancouver.

Krishna, K.B., Fuqua, J.S., Rogol, A.D., Klein, K.O., Popovic, J., Houk, C.P., … & Lee, P.A. (2019). Use of gonadotropin-releasing ormone analogs in children

Lynn Rew (2020) Review: Puberty blockers for transgender and gender diverse youth—a critical review of the literature

Olson-Kennedy, J., Chan, Y.-M., Garofalo, R., Spack, N., Chen, D., Clark, L., … & Rosenthal, S. (2019). Impact of early medical treatment for transgender youth:

Ruby Grant, Natalie Amos, Ashleigh Lin, Teddy Cook, Adam O. Hill, Ken Pang, Rachel S. Skinner, Marina Carman, Adam Bourne, (2024) Mental health and wellbeing outcomes associated with social, medical, and legal gender affirmation among trans young people in Australia,

Schagen, S.E.E., Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., Delemarre-van de Waal, H.A., & Hannema, S.E. (2016). Efficacy and safety of gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist treatment to suppress puberty in gender dysphoric adolescents.

Schneider, M.A., Spritzer, P.M., Soll, B.M.B., Fontanari, A.M.V., Carneiro, M., Tovar-Moll, F., … & Lobato, M.I.R. (2017). Brain maturation, cognition and voice pattern in a gender dysphoria case under pubertal suppression.

Turban, J.L. (2017). Transgender youth: The building evidence base for early social transition.

Turban, J.L., King, D., Carswell, J.M., & Keuroghlian, A.S. (2020). Pubertal suppression for transgender youth and risk of suicidal ideation.

Vlot, M.C., Klink, D., den Heijer, M., Blankenstein, M.A., Rotteveel, J., & Heijboer, A. (2017). Effect of pubertal suppression and cross-sex hormone therapy on bone turnover markers and bone mineral apparent density (BMAD) in transgender adolescents

Vrouenraets, L.J.J.J., Fredriks, A.M., Hannema, S.E., Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., & DeVries, M.C. (2015). Early medical treatment of children and adolescents with gender dysphoria

Vrouenraets, L.J.J.J., Fredriks, A.M., Hannema, S.E., Cohen-Kettenis, P.T., & DeVries, M.C. (2016). Perceptions of sex, gender, and puberty suppression: A qualitative analysis of transgender youth

all these studies and hundreds of others say you are wrong.

And here’s an article blasting Turbin’s 2020 article. This comes from the NIH.

Puberty Blockers and Suicidality in Adolescents Suffering from Gender Dysphoria

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Still think I’m wrong?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Of course. Don’t be a troll.

Sure you do, sweetheart.

Adorable.

 

[Watchmen]

Sure you do, sweetheart.

Adorable.

I see that now that I’ve responded substantively, you’ve resorted to name calling. I thought you were some intellectual, logic master genius. How disappointing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You should check out Crazy Like Us: The Globalization of the American Psyche (2011) by Ethan Watters. It describes the PTSD, anorexia and bulimia contagions, along with many others. It's a fascinating read!

So, instead of addressing the content of my response to you, you've decided to double down and advise me to read the book you've cribbed all of this inaccurate information from? A book written by a journalist, no less, rather than an actual qualified psychologist or psychiatrist.

Instead of listening to some guy who doesn't know what he's talking about, I'm going to stick to reading scientific studies and assessments for my scientific information. I've spent a lot of time studying psychology in my life already, which is how I know what you're saying is harmful nonsense.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I see that now that I’ve responded substantively,

So you admit that your earlier responses weren't substantive and you were, in fact, being the troll.

Glad for the concession.

Also, gotta love the fact that you post ONE LETTER TO AN EDITOR (not even a scientific paper) and you smugly declare "Still think I'm wrong?" while ignoring literally dozens of actual scientific papers presented earlier that explicitly contradict your earlier claims.

Love it.

 

[Watchmen]

So you admit that your earlier responses weren't substantive and you were, in fact, being the troll.

Glad for the concession.

Also, gotta love the fact that you post ONE LETTER TO AN EDITOR (not even a scientific paper) and you smugly declare "Still think I'm wrong?" while ignoring literally dozens of actual scientific papers presented earlier that explicitly contradict your earlier claims.

Love it.

You’re the only one trolling.

The letter was by an Oxford professor and peer reviewed. Now you’re just embarrassing yourself.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The letter was by an Oxford professor and peer reviewed. Now you’re just embarrassing yourself.

So one professor. In a letter. About one study. Not a study itself.

Meanwhile, you reject the dozens of actual studies carried out by lots of professors because...?

You're really good at this "rational debate" thing, yeah.

 

[Watchmen]

So one professor. In a letter. Not a study.

Meanwhile, you reject the dozens of actual studies carried out by lots of professors because...?

I’ve already demonstrated two of the articles/studies are weak and don’t support the position of the one who posted them (which wasn’t you, by the way; you just chose to jump in and troll me; you also condescendingly used words like “adorable” and sweetheart;” where I came from, such behavior is inappropriate).

 

[Argentbear]

Since no one here will admit to having actually read any of these, I decided to read one myself. And guess what? It did NOT prove me wrong. To the contrary, it acknowledged no long term data and said results among the adolescents studied were mixed. And note only 13 people participated in this “study.”

Do you have anything better?

actually you said "puberty blockers and hormone therapies are actually harmful and make things worse, not better" and a mystery study you don't actually cite says results were mixed doesn't support that. what results? Mixed how?

But if you want to go over some studies.

Olson-Kennedy, J., Chan, Y.-M., Garofalo, R., Spack, N., Chen, D., Clark, L., … & Rosenthal, S. (2019). Impact of early medical treatment for transgender youth found _ A multi year study of 391 on puberty blockers or gender affirming hormones found youth who had initiated GAH in early puberty had higher scores for appearance congruence, positive affect, and life satisfaction at baseline and lower scores for depression and anxiety at baseline than those who had initiated GAH in later puberty.

how about Lynn Rew (2020) Review: Puberty blockers for transgender and gender diverse youth—a critical review of the literature?
A meta study on 211 studies of application of long term results of puberty blockers on transgender youth. T he studies has a mean sample size 120 . It found: "administered medication during Tanner stages 2 through 4. Positive outcomes were decreased suicidality in adulthood, improved affect and psychological functioning, and improved social life."

de Vries, A.L.C., Steensma, T.D., Doreleijers, T.A.H., & Cohen-Kettenis, P.T. (2021). Puberty suppression in adolescents with gender identity disorder Conducted 5 and 8 year follow up evaluations of 70 youths who between the age of 12 and 16 were on puberty blockers. " Behavioral and emotional problems and depressive symptoms decreased, while general functioning improved significantly during puberty suppression.

 

[Argentbear]

You’re the only one trolling.

The letter was by an Oxford professor and peer reviewed. Now you’re just embarrassing yourself.

letters aren't peer reviewed


Michael Biggs is a sociologist not a psychiatrist or medical doctor. He spent several years posing online as anti trans propagandist “Henry Wimbush”

 

[Watchmen]

letters aren't peer reviewed

That one was. Further evidence you didn’t read it.

 

[Argentbear]

That one was. Further evidence you didn’t read it.

do you know what peer review is?

 

[Watchmen]

do you know what peer review is?

Yep. From the article:

“Editor’s note. This Letter was peer reviewed by three members of the Editorial Board and myself.”

 

[Argentbear]

Yep. From the article:

“Editor’s note. This Letter was peer reviewed by three members of the Editorial Board and myself.”

peer review is done by peers, that is experts in the field of study that are unconnected to the study or the journal considering publication.

 

[icehorse]

peer review is done by peers, that is experts in the field of study that are unconnected to the study or the journal considering publication.

Over the last couple of decades, hundreds of poorly designed studies have been done on the safety and efficacy of GAC protocols. What has been happening for the last several years now is that in western countries with superior, non-political healthcare systems (unlike the U.S.), top doctors and clinicians have found that there is no high quality evidence that GAC is effective, and lots of evidence that it's dangerous.

There is no way that we on this forum can make a convincing argument either way by trotting out a handful of studies. The reasons that these studies provide low quality evidence are often quite subtle. So I'll grant you that you can find pro-GAC studies. What you seem unwilling to address is that top doctors across Europe, having engaged in thorough meta-studies, cannot find any high quality evidence that supports GAC.

I trust these European doctors, they are not slaves to political and/or corporate agendas like most US doctors are.

 

[Argentbear]

Over the last couple of decades, hundreds of poorly designed studies have been done on the safety and efficacy of GAC protocols.

Cite them. Explain just what makes them poorly designed other then your dislike of the results.

What has been happening for the last several years now is that in western countries with superior, non-political healthcare systems (unlike the U.S.), top doctors and clinicians have found that there is no high quality evidence that GAC is effective, and lots of evidence that it's dangerous.

Germany? Italy? the Netherlands?

There is no way that we on this forum can make a convincing argument either way by trotting out a handful of studies. The reasons that these studies provide low quality evidence are often quite subtle.

SO "subtle" you can't actually identify why they are low quality other than not liking the findings

So I'll grant you that you can find pro-GAC studies. What you seem unwilling to address is that top doctors across Europe, having engaged in thorough meta-studies, cannot find any high quality evidence that supports GAC.

Ignoring 90% of research is thorough?

I trust these European doctors, they are not slaves to political and/or corporate agendas like most US doctors are.

Fortunately most physicians put the needs and well being of their patients first.

 

[icehorse]

SO "subtle" you can't actually identify why they are low quality other than not liking the findings

Neither of us could without a boatload of work. Again, I'm trusting the meta-studies done by indpendently minded doctors.

Fortunately most physicians put the needs and well being of their patients first.

The problem in the US is that there is no central medical authority (the ones you're about to list are business groups).

And doctors are forced to rely on protocols developed by others, they do not have time to do their own studies. And in this case, US doctors dealing with GD rely on the protocols developed by WPATH and those protocols are now seen as highly suspect, as is WPATH itself.

So, good doctors, overly busy, being fed bad protocols by WPATH, an advocacy group.

 

[Argentbear]

Neither of us could without a boatload of work. Again, I'm trusting the meta-studies done by indpendently minded doctors.

Yes you keep repeating that hundreds of published peer reviews studies and just bad

Of course the most pragmatic answer is that these studies are not poorly designed they just have findings someone doesn't like.

The problem in the US is that there is no central medical authority (the ones you're about to list are business groups).

And doctors are forced to rely on protocols developed by others, they do not have time to do their own studies. And in this case, US doctors dealing with GD rely on the protocols developed by WPATH and those protocols are now seen as highly suspect, as is WPATH itself.

So, good doctors, overly busy, being fed bad protocols by WPATH, an advocacy group.

here is the WPATH standard of care. please identify these ""highly suspect" protocols