Enlightenment... are you enlighten ?

[Onkara]

Can you sometimes be "enlightened " on some things but not on others?

Also cant say "I have zero idea" be enightenment too?

Love

Dallas

Hello Dallas
My impression is that the OP is taking on the topic of spritual enlightehment, seen more in the Dharma religions. Enlightenment is a state of being and so would not depend on anything, it is liberation from reincarnation. I know what you mean, we often say "enlighten me on a topic", in which case I think you can feel you know something well enough to say "I have been enlightened" on that thing but perhaps not another topic

From a dharma perspective having no idea can also be enlightenment too.

Best wishes, Onkarah.

 

[DallasApple]

dear dallas, enlightenment is a spiritual state of being.....

you can of course use it differently if you like

I understand and I guess Im mixing it up too much.

But I think either way it has to be 'relational" to other beings around us to be enlightnened..Or at least thats how it seems to me.

Thats how I guess Im relating it to encounters or "bumping up against" others around us..

I guess what Im saying is what good is enlightenment if you are all alone.Wouldnt that be a waste?

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

And thank you Dear..

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Hello Dallas
My impression is that the OP is taking on the topic of spritual enlightehment, seen more in the Dharma religions. Enlightenment is a state of being and so would not depend on anything, it is liberation from reincarnation. I know what you mean, we often say "enlighten me on a topic", in which case I think you can feel you know something well enough to say "I have been enlightened" on that thing but perhaps not another topic

From a dharma perspective having no idea can also be enlightenment too.

Best wishes, Onkarah.

Hi to you too..

Love

Dallas

 

[Mr Cheese]

I understand and I guess Im mixing it up too much.

But I think either way it has to be 'relational" to other beings around us to be enlightnened..Or at least thats how it seems to me.

Thats how I guess Im relating it to encounters or "bumping up against" others around us..

I guess what Im saying is what good is enlightenment if you are all alone.Wouldnt that be a waste?

Love

Dallas

by its very nature....
enlightenment in its "highest level" would be akin to being everything...

kind of sci fi...but part of it would be, being all things in existence..at the same time......

this is actually how faster than light drives work in some sci fi movies and books...

so, you would not be alone, as you would BE everything.... (and paradoxically nothing as well)

 

[DallasApple]

by its very nature....
enlightenment in its "highest level" would be akin to being everything...

kind of sci fi...but part of it would be, being all things in existence..at the same time......

this is actually how faster than light drives work in some sci fi movies and books...

so, you would not be alone, as you would BE everything.... (and paradoxically nothing as well)

Could it be that as you mentioned earlier everyone is enlightened..

But maybe some deny it?Or "ignore" it?

Could it be that you are at risk "accepting" it? Or acknowleding it?

Putting the ligth out?

Someone asked if you are "born enlightened"..I think so ..or that its possible..At least on some level that gets snuffed out or denied as we age???Then we get it back if we are open?

But then again Dear Cheese..I have absolutely no idea what Im talking about...

Oh well..this converastion has been "enlightening" ..:yes:

Love

Dallas

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Everyone can reach a certain level of enlightenment, but reaching full enlightenment could take many lifetimes, if that is one's goal. Even reaching a certain level of enlightenment is better then to remain entirely unawakened

"Better to hear one word of the dharma and understand it, then to live one hundred years and not know dharma. Better to live one day following the dharma, then to live a hundred without it"- Dhammapada

 

[DallasApple]

Everyone can reach a certain level of enlightenment, but reaching full enlightenment could take many lifetimes, if that is one's goal. Even reaching a certain level of enlightenment is better then to remain entirely unawakened

"Better to hear one word of the dharma and understand it, then to live one hundred years and not know dharma. Better to live one day following the dharma, then to live a hundred without it"- Dhammapada

Jesus was enlightened.

Also one of my favorite wise sayign is from a cartoon movie..Kung Fu Panda..

The old turtle master said..'yesterday is history..tomorrow is a mystery..today is a gift thats why its called "present"...

Thats "enligthenment"

Love

Dallas

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Jesus was enlightened.

Also one of my favorite wise sayign is from a cartoon movie..Kung Fu Panda..

The old turtle master said..'yesterday is history..tomorrow is a mystery..today is a gift thats why its called "present"...

Thats "enligthenment"

Love

Dallas

I don't deny Jesus might have been enlightened. He was a Bodhisattva at least, which according to Mahayana's definition, because Theravada see it differently, is one who lives their life for others rather then for themselves. Jesus was the epitome of that virtue.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Could it be that as you mentioned earlier everyone is enlightened..

But maybe some deny it?Or "ignore" it?

Could it be that you are at risk "accepting" it? Or acknowleding it?

Putting the ligth out?

Someone asked if you are "born enlightened"..I think so ..or that its possible..At least on some level that gets snuffed out or denied as we age???Then we get it back if we are open?

But then again Dear Cheese..I have absolutely no idea what Im talking about...

Oh well..this converastion has been "enlightening" ..:yes:

Love

Dallas

this has been a conundrum for many..for millenia

in the end we find several key ideas....

the world is broken and needs repair, this is called Tikkun Olam in Hebrew and is the basis for mystical Judaism. Modern Hermeticism (think occultists, alchemists etc) relying heavily on Judaism (horrifying for many modern pagans that their entire religious or spiritual practises are essentially watered down christian or Jewish spiritual practises)also tends to have this view.

We find this further in the ideas of the likes of CGJung, with his ideas of "indivuation" which is a process of reintergrating the self..although this is less cut and dry as "things are broken and need fixing"

This idea would of course tie into the conventional christian idea of the fall of man and the story of Eden. Adam and Eve broke things, by participating in original sin.

....

The other idea we find in some spiritual "schools" is that everythign is perfect, we simply aren't aware of this. We can see this in the idea of king Arthur who was not killed, but fell asleep.... "The dreamer is still asleep"; legend goes he will arise from his slumber to save Britain in a time of need.

This arguemnt is then that we do not need to repair anything, we simply need to be who we truly are.

.....

Both views ultimatly of course speak of an original or perfect state of being, or enlightenment. Arguably we can see both views are then, exactly the same. However the acts required to "repair' versus "awaken" can often be seen to be exactly opposite or antagonistic toward each other. For example in Judaic spiritual endevors we can say the universe is composed of two forces, vessels and light. Light gives, vessels receive...thus any act of take is considered to be a short circuit. In repairing, often the interaction of give and receive can become muddled, muddied and short circuited....

this would be one example of a major difference between mysticism and magic (of course this is a gross simplification)

whatever the story though....

are we born enlightend?

It really depends on your perspective....
ultimatly any perspective is just a means to understand something... it is NOT the thing itself.

.............

I became water
and saw myself
a mirage
became an ocean
saw myself a speck
of foam
gained Awareness
saw that all is but
forgetfulness
woke up
and found myself
asleep.

--Binavi Badakhshani

 

[Twilight Hue]

How does one knows, if he's enlighten ?.

How does one know if not enlightened?

can everybody attain enlightenment at some point in time ?

Sure. Why not.

 

[DallasApple]

this has been a conundrum for many..for millenia

in the end we find several key ideas....

the world is broken and needs repair, this is called Tikkun Olam in Hebrew and is the basis for mystical Judaism. Modern Hermeticism (think occultists, alchemists etc) relying heavily on Judaism (horrifying for many modern pagans that their entire religious or spiritual practises are essentially watered down christian or Jewish spiritual practises)also tends to have this view.

We find this further in the ideas of the likes of CGJung, with his ideas of "indivuation" which is a process of reintergrating the self..although this is less cut and dry as "things are broken and need fixing"

This idea would of course tie into the conventional christian idea of the fall of man and the story of Eden. Adam and Eve broke things, by participating in original sin.

....

The other idea we find in some spiritual "schools" is that everythign is perfect, we simply aren't aware of this. We can see this in the idea of king Arthur who was not killed, but fell asleep.... "The dreamer is still asleep"; legend goes he will arise from his slumber to save Britain in a time of need.

This arguemnt is then that we do not need to repair anything, we simply need to be who we truly are.

.....

Both views ultimatly of course speak of an original or perfect state of being, or enlightenment. Arguably we can see both views are then, exactly the same. However the acts required to "repair' versus "awaken" can often be seen to be exactly opposite or antagonistic toward each other. For example in Judaic spiritual endevors we can say the universe is composed of two forces, vessels and light. Light gives, vessels receive...thus any act of take is considered to be a short circuit. In repairing, often the interaction of give and receive can become muddled, muddied and short circuited....

this would be one example of a major difference between mysticism and magic (of course this is a gross simplification)

whatever the story though....

are we born enlightend?

It really depends on your perspective....
ultimatly any perspective is just a means to understand something... it is NOT the thing itself.

.............

I became water
and saw myself
a mirage
became an ocean
saw myself a speck
of foam
gained Awareness
saw that all is but
forgetfulness
woke up
and found myself
asleep.

--Binavi Badakhshani

Maybe this sounds stupid but maybe we are born a canvas for enlightenment?A "blank" slate" and we are guided to enlightment or to closed up tight and blind by the grown up infants around us?

Because I will tell you one thing..I have been "enlightened" by the look in the eyes of a 2 year old or a 3 month old..or a 5 year old child 10 to 1 in my life than by a 40 or 50 or so on year old.

Except my grandmother who is 96 now..It seems (IMHO) she circled back around.and her wisdonm and light in her eyes that are physically blind is back to the wisdom of a child..

I cant explain it..But sometimes I wish I was a child again so I would be able to see "clearly" ..But my grandmother who looks like "yoda"..I feel sorry for even though she went back to delight in the basic nature of connection ..only she is so old she has lost the physical stuff I feel sad for her.

Young in the mind seems to be with the physically young..and the enlightnened old..I guess I want to be young in the mind and physically..

Thats not very enlightened for me to say that..But thats what I wish..for myself and everyone..

Love

Dallas

 

[Mr Cheese]

Maybe this sounds stupid but maybe we are born a canvas for enlightenment?A "blank" slate" and we are guided to enlightment or to closed up tight and blind by the grown up infants around us?

Because I will tell you one thing..I have been "enlightened" by the look in the eyes of a 2 year old or a 3 month old..or a 5 year old child 10 to 1 in my life than by a 40 or 50 or so on year old.

Except my grandmother who is 96 now..It seems (IMHO) she circled back around.and her wisdonm and light in her eyes that are physically blind is back to the wisdom of a child..

I cant explain it..But sometimes I wish I was a child again so I would be able to see "clearly" ..But my grandmother who looks like "yoda"..I feel sorry for even though she went back to delight in the basic nature of connection ..only she is so old she has lost the physical stuff I feel sad for her.

Young in the mind seems to be with the physically young..and the enlightnened old..I guess I want to be young in the mind and physically..

Thats not very enlightened for me to say that..But thats what I wish..for myself and everyone..

Love

Dallas

the idea of a tabula rasa or blank slate is very valid...

but then do we need to "repair" or "awaken" in order to fill than void?

In Zen this is the difference between polishing a mirror (the self) and not having a mirror at all

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Being enlightened doesn't call for mindlessness, it calls for mindfulness

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Strictly speaking, you cannot become enlightened, because you are already enlightened. Being enlightened means realizing that you already are enlightened. Imagine looking for your long-lost sibling your entire life and then finding out that he/she was actually your best friend.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Being enlightened doesn't call for mindlessness, it calls for mindfulness

The lover sacrifices himself –for him death and removal are no different from staying

–Rumi


:sarcastic by being truly mindful... you are everything
which is also being nothing....

“We shall read about how to learn this prayer in the book called the Philokalia. It contains the complete and detailed sci­ence of unceasing interior prayer, expounded by twenty-five holy fathers. So sublime and profitable is this book that, it is revered as the chief and primary guide to the contemplative spiritual life and, as Saint Nikiphoros expresses, ‘it leads to salvation with­out labor and fasts.’”


“Is it then more sublime and holy than the Bible?” I asked.


“No, it is not more sublime nor is it holier than the Bible, but it does contain lucid explanations of what the Bible holds mysti­cally and what cannot be easily grasped by our short-sighted mind. I will give you an example of this. The sun is the greatest, most bril­liant, and most excellent luminary of the heavens, but you cannot contemplate it and examine it with the naked eye. You need a piece of treated artificial glass and although it is a million times smaller and duller than the sun, with the glass you can examine this magnificent emperor of the heavenly luminaries, admire it and attract its fiery rays. In the same way Sacred Scripture is a brilliant sun and the Philokalia is the necessary piece of glass which facilitates our access to that most sublime luminary. Listen now and I will read by what means unceasing interior prayer is to be learned.”


The elder opened the Philokalia, searched for an instruction of Saint Symeon the New Theologian and began: “Sit in silence and alone. Bend your head. Close your eyes. Breathe ever more quietly. With the imagination look inside your heart. Carry your intellect, that is your thought, out of your head and into your heart. As you breathe say quietly with your lips or in your intellect alone: ‘Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me.’… Try to drive away your thoughts. Keep restful patience and repeat this process very frequently.”

–The Pilgrim’s Tale

“Those who seek to enter the Orchard should know that it is a very harmful, dangerous space to visit. Therefore, first make certain that in your daily life you pursue peace and harmony in all of your relationships; that you do not create an atmosphere of terror in your home; that you do not be too demanding and exacting in your relating with members of your family, not concerning even a major issue, and certainly not a minor one; and God forbid do not flare up in rage at them. And do not ever chastise your children with anger.

Also steer clear of conceit and self-aggrandizing behavior, especially when it comes to doing the sacred work. For it is in the course of performing the sacred work that we become most prone to conceit and feelings of superiority. And when you make love to your partner first prepare your mind and heart so that you do not make love solely for your own pleasure to the neglect of the needs of your partner. And at night when you go to sleep, liberate your mind from all the tumult of your thoughts and concerns of this world, so that your soul can ascend with ease to the upper worlds and be clear enough to receive the continuous flux of divine wisdom that emanates from there. Finally, as you seek to learn how to enter the Orchard, seek also to learn how to leave the Orchard and return. For the mystery lies not only in the entering, but as much in the leaving.”

–From the 16th-century Rabbi Chayyim Vital in his introduction to Etz Chayyim

The spirit of the human being loves purity, but his mind disturbs it. His reason loves the silence but his desires drive it away. If he were able always to neutralise his desires, his mind would naturally become pure. The six desires (those of the five senses and the imagination) would not develop and the three poisons (greed, anger and stupidity) would be taken away and disappear.
The reason why people are unable to achieve this is that their minds are not purified and their desires are not neutralised. If someone is able to neutralise his desires and looks at his reason, these desires are no longer his; if he looks down at his body, it is no longer his; if he looks further away to the outward things, they are things that do not concern him.]

When he understands these three things, they will appear only a void to him. This beholding of the void will awaken the idea of nothingness. Without such nothingness, there is no void. When the idea of empty space has disappeared, also that of nothingness will disappear, and when the idea of nothingness has disappeared, then, clearly, the state of permanent silence will follow. In that state of rest and independent of place, how would desire be able to develop? And if desire no longer develops, there is true silence and rest. This true silence becomes a permanent property, and in this state, everything is comprehended as to its essence; yes, this true and permanent property becomes the ruler of human nature. In such a continuous representation and permanent silence, there is permanent purity and rest.

He who has this absolute purity, will gradually come into the true Dao. And once he has arrived there, he will be called master of Dao. Although he is called master of Dao, he does not really think that he has become master of anything. Because he is accomplishing the transformation of all things, he is called master of Dao. He who is able to understand this, is also able to pass on the holy Dao to others.

--‘Book of Purity’ by Ko Juan (AD 222-272)

 

[Mr Cheese]

Strictly speaking, you cannot become enlightened, because you are already enlightened. Being enlightened means realizing that you already are enlightened. Imagine looking for your long-lost sibling your entire life and then finding out that he/she was actually your best friend.

“Thou must love God as not-God, not-Spirit, not-person, not-image,
but as He is, a sheer, pure, absolute One, sundered from all two-ness,
and in whom we must eternally sink from nothingness to nothingness.”

- Meister Eckhart

 

[Twilight Hue]

Enlightenment. Someone somewhere will grasp it and once someone does, and exclaims verbally this is IT! *Poof*....gone.

 

[DallasApple]

That feels like a back pack full of rocks..maybe Im to emotinal but I can not carry that.

Im definately not "enlightened".

Love

Dallas

 

[Twilight Hue]

That feels like a back pack full of rocks..maybe Im to emotinal but I can not carry that.

Im definately not "enlightened".

Love

Dallas

Nope. Neither am "I".