Entitlements?

[Alceste]

Good luck getting an answer to that. They seem to prefer to repeat tired facts that seem to support their biases.

"Well, I didn't have a phone or TV, so these poor people can do without one."

OK, and when they get rid of their TV and phone, and they still can't afford shelter, or food on a regular basis, then what?

Yes, that has been my point. When young people come to terms with the fact they may never be able to earn enough to buy property, what are they supposed to do with their wages? Everybody I know either got into a home at the very beginning of the current boom by buying in their VERY early 20s using downpayments donated by their parents, or they live in a rented house with a bunch of fully employed room-mates, or they live with their parents.

So, I work full time and live in a multi-generational (read: paid for) household. I've got quite a bit of ready cash, but it will never be enough to buy or rent a home unless or until the housing market crashes. Meanwhile, politicians and the bankers who own them are desperate to keep housing prices artificially inflated by liquidating public assets to fund bank bail-outs and overpriced mortgage guarantees. So what if I eat out once in a while? What difference is that going to make to the big picture? None. My income can not buy or rent a home. So what should I be doing with it? Why not spend a tiny fraction of it on toys with which I can amuse myself while watching capitalism eat itself?

 

[Reverend Rick]

If the federal state fails at letting others enjoy the benefits of their exists and gain access to a fair and reasonable livelihood, than those others shouldn't be indebted to something that has not served them.

The Federal Government has not done a damn thing for me except make me fight in a war I did not agree with.

I have sent them millions in my life time, seriously. I know, bridges and roads and such. But I guess the people YOU talk about don't use those roads and bridges I paid for.

 

[Alceste]

The Federal Government has not done a damn thing for me except make me fight in a war I did not agree with.

I have sent them millions in my life time, seriously. I know, bridges and roads and such. But I guess the people YOU talk about don't use those roads and bridges I paid for.

What you don't seem to get is that we ALL pay whatever we can afford in tax. It isn't only you paying taxes. Your demographic might be happy with the status quo but the rest of us expect something in exchange for our contribution.

 

[Reverend Rick]

My father has a home that is paid for, guess what? His taxes and insurance are more than his house payment was when he had a mortage.

Yes, people made money on real estate in the past. A whole lot more folks got sick or laid off and lost their homes through no fault of their own.

I can tell you, real estate is over rated as an investment. You cannot move until you sell. You have to fix things and maintain the home. Many folks are under water.

If I was young, I would buy a used motor home and travel around. Actually, I may do that, live like the Greeks. Ride around and pay no taxes.

 

[Alceste]

My father has a home that is paid for, guess what? His taxes and insurance are more than his house payment was when he had a mortage.

Yes, people made money on real estate in the past. A whole lot more folks got sick or laid off and lost their homes through no fault of their own.

I can tell you, real estate is over rated as an investment. You cannot move until you sell. You have to fix things and maintain the home. Many folks are under water.

If I was young, I would buy a used motor home and travel around. Actually, I may do that, live like the Greeks. Ride around and pay no taxes.

Sounds like fun, but unlike the boomers, we have to work to live. Parking an RV in the city anywhere other than the driveway of your house is almost impossible, and most employers would have something to say about how a couple who lives in an unserviced RV would smell.

 

[Alceste]

 

[Revoltingest]

My father has a home that is paid for, guess what? His taxes and insurance are more than his house payment was when he had a mortage.

Yes, people made money on real estate in the past. A whole lot more folks got sick or laid off and lost their homes through no fault of their own.

I can tell you, real estate is over rated as an investment. You cannot move until you sell. You have to fix things and maintain the home. Many folks are under water.

If I was young, I would buy a used motor home and travel around. Actually, I may do that, live like the Greeks. Ride around and pay no taxes.

I've met a number of people who sold the house, got rid of the excess stuff, & live in an RV.
No real estate taxes, no riding out hurricanes or snow storms, & no difficulty getting around.
Ain't none of'm going back. Let the young buy homes & work their butts off for the piddly appreciation they might see.

 

[Kathryn]

We did. The UK was much worse. There is no hope at all for our generation there. Here it has been possible to live on one income (mine) while my partner starts a business that has a chance of generating a reasonable livelihood. Property prices are pretty outrageous across the board in Canada still though. If we both work full time it still will not be enough, and we would have to live in a city.

It's cute how you think everybody moving is going to solve the problem of new buyers being priced out of the market across the board, though. Typical baby boomer thinking. "It was easy for me, so there is probably a really simple solution".

Hey, sister, I got news for you. NOTHING has been easy for me.

 

[Kathryn]

Anybody who bought a house - or issued a mortgage - at the top of that spike is an idiot, as is anybody who expects a home purchased after 2000 to increase in value. OTOH, where are we (the generation who started needing permanent, independent shelter around 2000) supposed to live?

Sometimes I wonder if maybe economic collapse would be the best thing for us. Sure it would wipe out the assets of our parents generation, but either a major public program of low-cost housing, a massive private market correction or a massive spike in wages must happen if our generation is to have access to affordable housing. There's no support in the boomer generation for "entitlements" such as affordable housing programs and no prospect of increasing average wages (they have been declining since about 1970) because the boomers' pensions are utterly dependent on private profits which can only be maximized in a global labour market, so that leaves only one possibility.

WHAT pensions???? You know people with pensions? I personally don't know more than a handful of people (and they're old as Methuselah) who actually have any sort of pension (excluding career military and teachers).

I bought a house two years ago and it's increased in value. Not massively - but it SHOULDN'T increase dramatically in two years. It's held it's own quite nicely though, and actually gone up a bit because of some judicious improvements we've made.

But then - I don't live in an area where values are decreasing - and that's intentional on my part.

(Oh, did I mention that we sold our former house at a profit as well, two years ago? But...I digress...)

 

[Alceste]

Hey, sister, I got news for you. NOTHING has been easy for me.

Same question for you then: How old were you when you bought your first house? What did it cost? What was your job?

There's "easy", then there's "RELATIVELY easy". The graph I posted shows that anyone who got on the property ladder more than 10 years ago had a very easy time compared to anybody who needs a home now.

 

[Alceste]

WHAT pensions???? You know people with pensions? I personally don't know more than a handful of people (and they're old as Methuselah) who actually have any sort of pension (excluding career military and teachers).

I bought a house two years ago and it's increased in value. Not massively - but it SHOULDN'T increase dramatically in two years. It's held it's own quite nicely though, and actually gone up a bit because of some judicious improvements we've made.

But then - I don't live in an area where values are decreasing - and that's intentional on my part.

(Oh, did I mention that we sold our former house at a profit as well, two years ago? But...I digress...)

In Canada most of the boomers still have pensions, although they will need to work much longer than their parents did in order to stretch them out until the end of their lives. The boomers' kids have no pensions - all their capital is already sunk into student loans, mortgages and / or the credit card trouble that results from trying to eat while maintaining a massive debt load on a very low wage. I don't like to think about what is going to happen to the boomers' kids kids, but I chose not to have any myself because I can see which way the wind is blowing.

 

[Kathryn]

Sounds like fun, but unlike the boomers, we have to work to live.

Honestly, what the hell are you talking about? Rick is still busting his ***, and so is Revoltingest, and so are my husband and I - and we're all "boomers." I know very few people my age who are retired - in fact, I honestly cannot think of a single one!

Not that I'm complaining - I enjoy working hard, as I have for DECADES, and so does my husband. That is, we love the BENEFITS of hard work, which we have enjoyed, through our own efforts and precious few entitlements, as we've built successful careers. Note the word BUILT.

Just what do you think was handed to us? My dad was in the Air Force, and my mom stayed home to raise us three kids while we were small. We had one car, which we had for literally 14 years - I remember clearly that the vinyl seats split at one point and my mom put shower floor stickers on them to hold them together. At one point, we lived in a house in which you could see the GROUND thru the floorboards. We raised rabbits and chickens to supplement our diet. I shared a room with my brother till I was in my teens. When I was in my late teens, my dad started his own business. This meant that he couldn't pay for my college, so I worked full time and went to school -didn't take out any student loans.

I didn't buy my first house till I was in my thirties - we rented till then. We put $25,000 down on a $70,000 house - 1300 square feet for six people.

I drove the same car the entire time my kids were growing up - I had over 260,000 miles on it when I finally "upgraded" to a 6 year old car.

I didn't have a new car till THIS YEAR (I'm 49). I couldn't imagine the luxury of having a brand new car, and wouldn't have one now except that the interest rate and rebates were so low, and our USED CAR MARKET WAS SO DEPLETED BY THE "STIMULUS PLAN" - that for the first time in my life, it made more sense to buy a brand new car (only because I could put $8000 down on it). Actually, I still feel almost guilty about it.

At one point in my adult life, I actually lived in a STORAGE BUILDING for about 6 months - shared a twin bed with my husband. No A/C - in Texas - in the summertime. We had a microwave oven though - woohoo! And of course, no TV. In fact, growing up we didn't have a TV. We had one phone in the house. We hung our clothes out on the line to dry - to save money.

As a young mother, I used cloth diapers with my four kids - not because I was going green, but because I simply couldn't afford disposable diapers. Note - when you use cloth diapers, you have to use your hands to scrape the poop off into the toilet, and then you rinse the cloth diaper in the toilet and wring it out with your hands before you put it in the bin with the bleach water.

Thank God for Goodwill - that's where I took my kids for their back to school shopping every year - their entire childhood.

Now - I'm not complaining, not at all. I'm just balancing your take on boomers with a dose of reality. I've had a fantastic, adventurous life and I wouldn't change a minute of it.

My husband though, has me beat - hands down. He's the hardest working person I have ever met. His father was killed in the oilfield when my husband was 6 years old. Back in the day, there simply was no recourse for his mom - he had a ten thousand dollar life insurance policy and that was it. My mother in law went back to school at night and got a teaching degree so that she could raise her two young sons without relying on her dirt poor parents. They lived in one of the smallest houses I've ever seen.

My husband has worked since he was about 14. Started working in the oilfield when he was 18. He paid his own way thru college with no student loans - it took him three years to get an associate's degree in oil and gas. For 30 years, he's gotten up at 3 am and regularly worked 14 or more hours a day - in some of the worst places on this earth, in every sort of weather imaginable. When he wasn't working on a rig in some god forsaken country like Gabon, Nigeria, or Equatorial Guinea, he was building fences, hauling hay, building barns, etc.

Now - after thirty years of busting his ***, he makes great money. He's earned every penny. Our debt to income ratio is now under 15 percent, and we've got a comfortable home, and a nice nest egg built up as we plan for retirement. WE have earned and saved this money - by sacrificing and working our ***** off, for DECADES. And we're still working - and my husband will be for at least 8 more years, though he is graciously supporting my dream to quit the corporate grind in 2012.

When he retires, he will have worked an average of 70 plus hours a week, for about 45 years. I'm behind him - I've only worked an average of 55 hours a week for the past 20 years, because I stayed home to raise my four kids.

65+ years of work and taxes. Now, tell me again how we don't have to work to live?

 

[Kathryn]

My kids are doing great. My oldest daughter (29) worked till she had two children with her husband, who is a career military officer (who went into the military as an enlisted airman but finished his degree, applied for Officer Candidate School, and earned his commission). She homeschools their four children, one of which is adopted. She began working full time at age 17 and did so till she had her second child. She is very active in her community - in fact, today she and the kids volunteered all day at a local food bank. She and her husband have been happily married for 8 years. She is the most like me when it comes to politics - fiercely independent and involved in social causes.

My youngest daughter (27) is career military herself, married to a terrific guy for the past 7 years. They have three beautiful little girls who have never spent a day in daycare because both parents sacrifice in order to stagger their work hours so they don't have someone else raising their kids. My daughter also has two successful side ventures - photography and some modeling. Politically, she is an independent and a strong feminist.

All seven of my grandchildren are well behaved, smart, curious, vibrant and sweet natured, so all four parents must be doing something really right.

My oldest son (25) is in the Army, and will probably make it a career, though right now he's not sure. Anyway, he's been in the military since he was 18 and he loves it - he's living in Korea now and engaged to a beautiful Korean girl who has a good job at an art museum. They are both bilingual and feel comfortable in either Korea or the US, so I'm not sure where they'll end up. They have no kids - which makes sense, since they're not yet married. I would classify him as leaning to the left politically.

My youngest son (23) has had the roughest transition, and is still floundering in a sense. But even in his floundering, he's doing well enough to support himself. He's a manager at a restaurant chain, and lives with a roommate in an apartment. He's dating a girl I really like. He's just starting out in his life, but he owns his car free and clear and has low expenses overall. Politically, he's all over the board, or rather, not on a board at all - he's living la vida loca.

Each of my kids moved out around 18 - 19 years old, and never moved back in. I have never let them borrow money from me, and I haven't subsidized their lives either, though I am generous when it comes to doing things like helping them decorate, or paying for a class, or spontaneously taking them to the grocery store and stocking up their pantry. But I don't just give them money, or co sign on loans, or allow them to move back home if things get a little tough (I WILL help them prioritize and regroup though).

Not one of my kids has any credit card debt. Their vehicles are all paid for. They budget well, so they all are able to travel and work in some really good vacations - with their own money. They have hobbies, interests, and very full and interesting lives. Three of the four place a strong emphasis on their personal faith.

So - I say all that to point out that I'm not complaining about this generation - I'm just put out with goobers of any age who are apparently enthralled with the "nouveau" class warfare and victimhood mentalities which encourage a sense of entitlement and jealousy.

 

[Alceste]

Honestly, what the hell are you talking about? Rick is still busting his ***, and so is Revoltingest, and so are my husband and I - and we're all "boomers." I know very few people my age who are retired - in fact, I honestly cannot think of a single one!

But you could sell your houses, buy RVs and spend the rest of your days fishing. My generation can not, because we don't have houses to sell. In general, due to low wages and the high cost of living, we live paycheck to paycheck. That requires a steady influx of paychecks. Come to think of it, you ARE quitting your job - long before retirement - because you (like us) suddenly have to work much harder for less in return. Given the circumstances, it's kind of ironic that you are simultaneously quitting your job to follow your dreams and boasting about your superior work ethic.

Not that I'm complaining - I enjoy working hard, as I have for DECADES, and so does my husband. That is, we love the BENEFITS of hard work, which we have enjoyed, through our own efforts and precious few entitlements, as we've built successful careers. Note the word BUILT.

I'm not complaining either - I am used to living paycheck to paycheck, like the rest of my generation. I enjoy the benefits of my paychecks. Although the prospect of home ownership boomers tend to take for granted is totally out of the question for most of my generation - at least my paychecks guarantee us a steady supply of food and entertainment and the occasional camping trip. And, like your husband, we are very fortunate that - by working all the time - I can provide for my partner while he follows his own creative dreams. To be honest, our situations aren't that different, except that you live in a house of your own, could afford to have children and might one day be able to retire. We live in somebody else's house, can not afford to have children and are resigned to the likelihood that we will need to work right up until the day we die.

Just what do you think was handed to us?

A half price house.

My dad was in the Air Force, and my mom stayed home to raise us three kids while we were small. We had one car, which we had for literally 14 years - I remember clearly that the vinyl seats split at one point and my mom put shower floor stickers on them to hold them together. At one point, we lived in a house in which you could see the GROUND thru the floorboards. We raised rabbits and chickens to supplement our diet. I shared a room with my brother till I was in my teens. When I was in my late teens, my dad started his own business. This meant that he couldn't pay for my college, so I worked full time and went to school -didn't take out any student loans.

I didn't buy my first house till I was in my thirties - we rented till then. We put $25,000 down on a $70,000 house - 1300 square feet for six people.

I drove the same car the entire time my kids were growing up - I had over 260,000 miles on it when I finally "upgraded" to a 6 year old car.

I didn't have a new car till THIS YEAR (I'm 49). I couldn't imagine the luxury of having a brand new car, and wouldn't have one now except that the interest rate and rebates were so low, and our USED CAR MARKET WAS SO DEPLETED BY THE "STIMULUS PLAN" - that for the first time in my life, it made more sense to buy a brand new car (only because I could put $8000 down on it). Actually, I still feel almost guilty about it.

At one point in my adult life, I actually lived in a STORAGE BUILDING for about 6 months - shared a twin bed with my husband. No A/C - in Texas - in the summertime. We had a microwave oven though - woohoo! And of course, no TV. In fact, growing up we didn't have a TV. We had one phone in the house. We hung our clothes out on the line to dry - to save money.

As a young mother, I used cloth diapers with my four kids - not because I was going green, but because I simply couldn't afford disposable diapers. Note - when you use cloth diapers, you have to use your hands to scrape the poop off into the toilet, and then you rinse the cloth diaper in the toilet and wring it out with your hands before you put it in the bin with the bleach water.

Thank God for Goodwill - that's where I took my kids for their back to school shopping every year - their entire childhood.

Now - I'm not complaining, not at all. I'm just balancing your take on boomers with a dose of reality. I've had a fantastic, adventurous life and I wouldn't change a minute of it.

My husband though, has me beat - hands down. He's the hardest working person I have ever met. His father was killed in the oilfield when my husband was 6 years old. Back in the day, there simply was no recourse for his mom - he had a ten thousand dollar life insurance policy and that was it. My mother in law went back to school at night and got a teaching degree so that she could raise her two young sons without relying on her dirt poor parents. They lived in one of the smallest houses I've ever seen.

My husband has worked since he was about 14. Started working in the oilfield when he was 18. He paid his own way thru college with no student loans - it took him three years to get an associate's degree in oil and gas. For 30 years, he's gotten up at 3 am and regularly worked 14 or more hours a day - in some of the worst places on this earth, in every sort of weather imaginable. When he wasn't working on a rig in some god forsaken country like Gabon, Nigeria, or Equatorial Guinea, he was building fences, hauling hay, building barns, etc.

Now - after thirty years of busting his ***, he makes great money. He's earned every penny. Our debt to income ratio is now under 15 percent, and we've got a comfortable home, and a nice nest egg built up as we plan for retirement. WE have earned and saved this money - by sacrificing and working our ***** off, for DECADES. And we're still working - and my husband will be for at least 8 more years, though he is graciously supporting my dream to quit the corporate grind in 2012.

When he retires, he will have worked an average of 70 plus hours a week, for about 45 years. I'm behind him - I've only worked an average of 55 hours a week for the past 20 years, because I stayed home to raise my four kids.

65+ years of work and taxes. Now, tell me again how we don't have to work to live?

Are you sure you're not complaining? Because it sounds a bit like you're complaining. You not only had kids, but STAYED HOME to raise them (which means you must have had a home then too). You are retiring at 49 with a nice big house and a bunch of retirement savings. Life's pretty rough for those "hard working" baby boomers isn't it!

For the past few months I have worked all day, every single day, at times juggling four part time, low-wage jobs (because there is nothing else available here), teaching music on the side and playing in three bands - gigs every Friday and Saturday night, plus festivals in the summer. I haven't had a vacation longer than a day off work in over 2 years. My 90 year old grandma who grew up with access only to goods that her immediate family grew or made themselves tells me I work too hard whenever she catches me on the way out the door. I'm not somebody who needs to hear a lecture from somebody who is about to quit her job at 49 about hard work, but thanks anyway.

 

[Alceste]

My kids are doing great. My oldest daughter (29) worked till she had two children with her husband, who is a career military officer (who went into the military as an enlisted airman but finished his degree, applied for Officer Candidate School, and earned his commission). She homeschools their four children, one of which is adopted. She began working full time at age 17 and did so till she had her second child. She is very active in her community - in fact, today she and the kids volunteered all day at a local food bank. She and her husband have been happily married for 8 years. She is the most like me when it comes to politics - fiercely independent and involved in social causes.

My youngest daughter (27) is career military herself, married to a terrific guy for the past 7 years. They have three beautiful little girls who have never spent a day in daycare because both parents sacrifice in order to stagger their work hours so they don't have someone else raising their kids. My daughter also has two successful side ventures - photography and some modeling. Politically, she is an independent and a strong feminist.

All seven of my grandchildren are well behaved, smart, curious, vibrant and sweet natured, so all four parents must be doing something really right.

My oldest son (25) is in the Army, and will probably make it a career, though right now he's not sure. Anyway, he's been in the military since he was 18 and he loves it - he's living in Korea now and engaged to a beautiful Korean girl who has a good job at an art museum. They are both bilingual and feel comfortable in either Korea or the US, so I'm not sure where they'll end up. They have no kids - which makes sense, since they're not yet married. I would classify him as leaning to the left politically.

My youngest son (23) has had the roughest transition, and is still floundering in a sense. But even in his floundering, he's doing well enough to support himself. He's a manager at a restaurant chain, and lives with a roommate in an apartment. He's dating a girl I really like. He's just starting out in his life, but he owns his car free and clear and has low expenses overall. Politically, he's all over the board, or rather, not on a board at all - he's living la vida loca.

Each of my kids moved out around 18 - 19 years old, and never moved back in. I have never let them borrow money from me, and I haven't subsidized their lives either, though I am generous when it comes to doing things like helping them decorate, or paying for a class, or spontaneously taking them to the grocery store and stocking up their pantry. But I don't just give them money, or co sign on loans, or allow them to move back home if things get a little tough (I WILL help them prioritize and regroup though).

Not one of my kids has any credit card debt. Their vehicles are all paid for. They budget well, so they all are able to travel and work in some really good vacations - with their own money. They have hobbies, interests, and very full and interesting lives. Three of the four place a strong emphasis on their personal faith.

So - I say all that to point out that I'm not complaining about this generation - I'm just put out with goobers of any age who are apparently enthralled with the "nouveau" class warfare and victimhood mentalities which encourage a sense of entitlement and jealousy.

Unsurprisingly, my parents brag about me too. My car is paid for and I have no credit card debt, mortgage or student loans. I have a great boyfriend, I've been all around the world, speak 3 languages, play 8 instruments, got fantastic grades in school, yada yada yada.

As interesting as the minutae of your kids' relationships and political views might be, how many of them own their own house? When did they buy it? If it was prior to the bubble that started in about 2000 (refer to the chart) their circumstances have nothing to do with the point I'm making.

 

[Kathryn]

But you could sell your houses, buy RVs and spend the rest of your days fishing.

Uhhh, no we couldn't. Our life expectancy is about 35 more years. There's no way that what we have now would cover even the most basic expenses for that amount of time.

My generation can not, because we don't have houses to sell.

I didn't have a house with much equity in it in my thirties either. So what? I lived in a 1300 square foot house at that time - six of us did, in fact.

In general, due to low wages and the high cost of living, we live paycheck to paycheck. That requires a steady influx of paychecks.

Yeah, I did too when I was your age. And my life STILL requires a steady influx of paychecks, and will for another decade or so.

Come to think of it, you ARE quitting your job - long before retirement - because you (like us) suddenly have to work much harder for less in return.

Alceste - I am fifty years old. I am blessed to be able to quit my full time job because in the past three years, my husband has nearly tripled his income. All his decades of hard work have finally paid off.

If this hadn't happened (and rather unexpectedly, I might add), we'd both be putting our noses to the grindstone for at least 15 more years.

Given the circumstances, it's kind of ironic that you are simultaneously quitting your job to follow your dreams and boasting about your superior work ethic.

I'll repeat - I'm fifty years old. I've worked more than full time for over two decades, and prior to that, I stayed home to raise four kids till they were in school (eleven years of VERY hard work, as I've described).

I don't think I have a SUPERIOR work ethic - I have a GOOD work ethic and I've made some good decisions and choices over my lifetime.

When you're fifty, I sincerely hope you can say the same - in fact, I hope you are more successful than I am and make better decisions.

Although the prospect of home ownership boomers tend to take for granted is totally out of the question for most of my generation - at least my paychecks guarantee us a steady supply of food and entertainment and the occasional camping trip.

As I've alluded to earlier - maybe you just don't live in an area conducive to home ownership. My oldest daughter and her husband could definitely buy a home in Louisiana if they chose to - in a metropolitan area - for a reasonable price.

To be honest, our situations aren't that different, except that you live in a house of your own, could afford to have children and might one day be able to retire. We live in somebody else's house, can not afford to have children and are resigned to the likelihood that we will need to work right up until the day we die.

Alceste - I couldn't afford to have kids either, I don't guess. At least, I couldn't afford to buy disposable diapers, or day care, or a second car, or cable TV, or a bedroom for each child, or new clothes for myself. You may not believe this, but I literally could not afford to buy a SINGLE SOFT DRINK for five years. What that means is that we literally did not go out to eat for five years. We didn't buy sodas, we didn't buy chips, we didn't see a movie, we didn't go camping, we didn't buy CDs, we didn't buy new furniture (we bought nearly everything we owned at Goodwill).

As for you not being able to retire - I think you're being a bit melodramatic, or at the least, you're painting yourself into a corner by your own choices of locale, careers, lifestyles, etc.

Are you sure you're not complaining? Because it sounds a bit like you're complaining.

Yes, I'm sure I'm not complaining. I guess what I described sounds awful to you, and that's why you think I'm complaining. Actually, I was literally never aware of my own financial "tightness." Not in the sense that it got to me, anyway. It just was what it was, and I dealt with it. Every day, I woke up to those gorgeous children, in a house crowded with love - who's complaining?

I was simply painting a very realistic picture for you in case you had some sort of pollyanna idea about my life.

You not only had kids, but STAYED HOME to raise them (which means you must have had a home then too).

I lived in an apartment for a long time. Then military quarters (more apartment living.) We rented homes off and on - very humble, small homes. We moved alot due to the military (my husband was enlisted for most of the time we were married.) When he got his commission (at age 31) we moved to Germany and lived in military quarters (apartments) again - on the fourth floor and no elevator - but I was in HEAVEN!

I stayed home with my kids for eleven years and then RETURNED to full time work outside the home.

You are retiring at 49 with a nice big house and a bunch of retirement savings. Life's pretty rough for those "hard working" baby boomers isn't it!

First of all, I'm not retiring. I will continue to earn money - I just won't be working 8-5 for someone else - I'll be working for myself. But you already know that, since I've told you that several times.

Also, we have four - FOUR - elderly parents who need more and more of our time and support. So this is a good decision for us as a family - as a whole family. My mother has had a major stroke. My dad has cancer. My mother in law has a bad heart and multiple health problems, as does my father in law. I will be spending a considerable amount of my time helping them. To everything there is a season.

As for the retirement savings - I don't believe I've shared that information with you.

My house is 2500 square feet and includes my husband's office. It's nice but it's not a luxurious mansion. But so what if it was? We've worked very hard for many decades to afford to live in this house. We've only had it TWO YEARS, Alceste.

For the past few months I have worked all day, every single day, at times juggling four part time, low-wage jobs (because there is nothing else available here), teaching music on the side and playing in three bands - gigs every Friday and Saturday night, plus festivals in the summer.

Great. Sounds like that's what you're going to have to do if you want to continue living in that area.

Are you complaining? Because it sounds like you are.

I haven't had a vacation longer than a day off work in over 2 years.

See my comment about not eating out for literally five years. Do you think we went on any vacations during that time? If you're not sure, I'll tell you - no. By the way - even if you have time off when you have no money and four kids - it doesn't feel much like a vacation, I can assure you.

My 90 year old grandma who grew up with access only to goods that her immediate family grew or made themselves tells me I work too hard whenever she catches me on the way out the door.

Yeah, my grandmother, who worked in the cotton fields starting at age 6, always said the same thing to me too. That's how grandmothers are.

I'm not somebody who needs to hear a lecture from somebody who is about to quit her job at 49 about hard work, but thanks anyway.

Oh, you're just jealous.

My point was that my husband and I have worked VERY HARD for DECADES to finally afford our comfortable lifestyle. My husband is STILL getting up at 3 am and putting in 15 hour days - but as of this past year, now he only has to do it two weeks out of every month.

All those decades of hard work have finally paid off. Now when he's home for two weeks out of each month, we can play.

Life is good. It was good before - but it's better now. And part of that satisfaction comes from knowing how hard and how long we've worked to get here.

 

[Kathryn]

As interesting as the minutae of your kids' relationships and political views might be, how many of them own their own house? When did they buy it? If it was prior to the bubble that started in about 2000 (refer to the chart) their circumstances have nothing to do with the point I'm making.

Alceste, my kids are all in their twenties. They don't expect to own a house anytime soon. So what? I didn't own a house in my twenties either. I didn't expect to. When I did buy a house, it was a TINY house and my payments were lower than rent would be - because I had saved up a down payment for several years.

I did this by washing diapers out in the toilet and not eating out for five years.

 

[Alceste]

Uhhh, no we couldn't. Our life expectancy is about 35 more years. There's no way that what we have now would cover even the most basic expenses for that amount of time.



I didn't have a house with much equity in it in my thirties either. So what? I lived in a 1300 square foot house at that time - six of us did, in fact.



Yeah, I did too when I was your age. And my life STILL requires a steady influx of paychecks, and will for another decade or so.



Alceste - I am fifty years old. I am blessed to be able to quit my full time job because in the past three years, my husband has nearly tripled his income. All his decades of hard work have finally paid off.

If this hadn't happened (and rather unexpectedly, I might add), we'd both be putting our noses to the grindstone for at least 15 more years.



I'll repeat - I'm fifty years old. I've worked more than full time for over two decades, and prior to that, I stayed home to raise four kids till they were in school (eleven years of VERY hard work, as I've described).

I don't think I have a SUPERIOR work ethic - I have a GOOD work ethic and I've made some good decisions and choices over my lifetime.

When you're fifty, I sincerely hope you can say the same - in fact, I hope you are more successful than I am and make better decisions.



As I've alluded to earlier - maybe you just don't live in an area conducive to home ownership. My oldest daughter and her husband could definitely buy a home in Louisiana if they chose to - in a metropolitan area - for a reasonable price.



Alceste - I couldn't afford to have kids either, I don't guess. At least, I couldn't afford to buy disposable diapers, or day care, or a second car, or cable TV, or a bedroom for each child, or new clothes for myself. You may not believe this, but I literally could not afford to buy a SINGLE SOFT DRINK for five years. What that means is that we literally did not go out to eat for five years. We didn't buy sodas, we didn't buy chips, we didn't see a movie, we didn't go camping, we didn't buy CDs, we didn't buy new furniture (we bought nearly everything we owned at Goodwill).

As for you not being able to retire - I think you're being a bit melodramatic, or at the least, you're painting yourself into a corner by your own choices of locale, careers, lifestyles, etc.



Yes, I'm sure I'm not complaining. I guess what I described sounds awful to you, and that's why you think I'm complaining. Actually, I was literally never aware of my own financial "tightness." Not in the sense that it got to me, anyway. It just was what it was, and I dealt with it. Every day, I woke up to those gorgeous children, in a house crowded with love - who's complaining?

I was simply painting a very realistic picture for you in case you had some sort of pollyanna idea about my life.



I lived in an apartment for a long time. Then military quarters (more apartment living.) We rented homes off and on - very humble, small homes. We moved alot due to the military (my husband was enlisted for most of the time we were married.) When he got his commission (at age 31) we moved to Germany and lived in military quarters (apartments) again - on the fourth floor and no elevator - but I was in HEAVEN!

I stayed home with my kids for eleven years and then RETURNED to full time work outside the home.



First of all, I'm not retiring. I will continue to earn money - I just won't be working 8-5 for someone else - I'll be working for myself. But you already know that, since I've told you that several times.

Also, we have four - FOUR - elderly parents who need more and more of our time and support. So this is a good decision for us as a family - as a whole family. My mother has had a major stroke. My dad has cancer. My mother in law has a bad heart and multiple health problems, as does my father in law. I will be spending a considerable amount of my time helping them. To everything there is a season.

As for the retirement savings - I don't believe I've shared that information with you.

My house is 2500 square feet and includes my husband's office. It's nice but it's not a luxurious mansion. But so what if it was? We've worked very hard for many decades to afford to live in this house. We've only had it TWO YEARS, Alceste.



Great. Sounds like that's what you're going to have to do if you want to continue living in that area.

Are you complaining? Because it sounds like you are.



See my comment about not eating out for literally five years. Do you think we went on any vacations during that time? If you're not sure, I'll tell you - no. By the way - even if you have time off when you have no money and four kids - it doesn't feel much like a vacation, I can assure you.



Yeah, my grandmother, who worked in the cotton fields starting at age 6, always said the same thing to me too. That's how grandmothers are.



Oh, you're just jealous.

My point was that my husband and I have worked VERY HARD for DECADES to finally afford our comfortable lifestyle. My husband is STILL getting up at 3 am and putting in 15 hour days - but as of this past year, now he only has to do it two weeks out of every month.

All those decades of hard work have finally paid off. Now when he's home for two weeks out of each month, we can play.

Life is good. It was good before - but it's better now. And part of that satisfaction comes from knowing how hard and how long we've worked to get here.

It is nice that we are getting to know each other a little better, but I am talking specifically about home ownership. Let me repost this graph, because it really says more about the big picture than the two of us going back and forth about the minutae of our respective accomplishments ever could:

Where did you jump in when you bought your first home? Where would I be jumping in if there was any hope at all (or any purpose) of jumping in now, before the market corrects itself? Everything you describe, all that hard work, even if it were true that I don't work as hard now as you did at my age (which is a frankly ridiculous assertion from my POV), and even if I worked much harder now than you did back then (which is impossible, given the fact there are only 24 hours in a day) STILL would not be enough to put me in a house. Not even a tiny little crappy house. You were working flat out and barely scraping by, according to your own account. I would have to work almost twice as hard now as you worked back then to have what you had: a place to live and the opportunity to have kids.

Now do you get it?

 

[Alceste]

Alceste, my kids are all in their twenties. They don't expect to own a house anytime soon. So what? I didn't own a house in my twenties either. I didn't expect to. When I did buy a house, it was a TINY house and my payments were lower than rent would be - because I had saved up a down payment for several years.

I did this by washing diapers out in the toilet and not eating out for five years.

OK, so none of your kids owns a house or expects to be able to buy a house any time soon. So their individual merits and accomplishments are not at all relevant, since they are in exactly the same situation as I am, except I'm older and they have kids.

 

[Kathryn]

Where did you jump in when you bought your first home? Where would I be jumping in if there was any hope at all (or any purpose) of jumping in now, before the market corrects itself? Everything you describe, all that hard work, even if it were true that I don't work as hard now as you did at my age (which is a frankly ridiculous assertion from my POV), and even if I worked much harder now than you did back then - barely scraping by according to your own account - STILL would not be enough to put me in a house. Not even a tiny little crappy house.

Now do you get it?

Alceste, I understand what you're saying - I'm just not buying your generalizations.

So much of this depends on WHERE you are trying to build your life. I can assure you that you could build a career, and buy a home in your thirties, in some other areas of North America - but you voluntarily choose to live in an area that has a very high cost of living and housing.

When I bought my first house - it cost about $75,000 and our income yearly was about $35,000.

My daughter and her husband make about $60,000 a year and they would be able to buy a comparable home around here for about $130,000 - and they'd be able to afford it - without my daughter even working.

Same general area (Ark La Tex) and similar jobs - just two decades apart.

This area has largely corrected itself when it comes to the housing market. It was inflated for awhile, but not extravagantly.

We had to hold off selling our other house for two years, because the market was so volatile and crazy. We ended up selling it for a profit, but that was because it was a near total redo, and we spent our money wisely on renovations.

We've made significant improvements in our current home, and just got the appraisal on it and we're right on target with our investment.

I'm feeling pretty good about the housing market myself. But then - I live in Texas.