Epilepsy = demonic possession!

[oldbadger]

Heck, I haven't even begun to sink my teeth into this topic. Hang tight.

Spirits and Demons?
Although the thread addresses the many physical, neurological and psychological conditions that could explain the miracles of Jesus, we do seem to be moving into the subject of 'Demons Today'.

It's reasonable to assume that all true Christians believe in Demons because if they don't then they don't believe the gospel stories. Fair enough?

I have heard that Muslims believe in Jinn? Are those a kind of Demon?

Lyndon writes that Buddha believed in Demons.

But what surprised (circa 2013) me was the number of atheists who are superstitious. On a mainly atheistic website I asked the question 'do you have any superstitions?' .
Several atheists responded and explained that they 'touched wood' or 'felt strange in certain places' etc etc, and some believed in ghosts. I particularly liked one post where a member reckoned that he could tell a bad person at first glance and believed this to be supernatural guidance.

Other atheists responded with heated posts, exclaiming that such beliefs and tenets are totally unreasonable in any true atheist, and then the thread temperature started to rise!

And so any members who believe that various superstitions exist only in primitive cultures then they are surely out of touch?

Go on! Eat me!

 

[YmirGF]

When you all are talking about "nonsense as demons" what, specifically, do you mean? What, specifically, are demons? How are you supposing people are "believing in" them and what are the specific consequences you think that belief has? In other words, how, specifically, is following this alternative paradigm (perhaps alongside modern ones) a problem?

In theory, demons are malevolent entities that seem to get their jollies by hijacking terrified human animals. Demons are also intrinsically linked to fears, nominally, fear of the unknown. Naming these fears solidifies the fear in the mind of the believer and gives it an extra charge due to the unpredictable nature of the emotions at play. Add to this the marvel of human imagination and one can be saddling themselves with a very serious problem, but it is a problem of ones own creation.

From my view, the problem with holding onto these extreme ideas in light of modern thought is that doing so could cause a schism to form in the mind of the believer. A split between the rational and the irrational. Considering how irrational people can be in normal terms, adding this stress to the mix could likely cause problems depending on the strength of the belief.

What is troubling is that we have virtually no scientifically documented cases of demonic possession. We do have a rather lot of people with very vivid imaginations. What is even more problematic is the average person is not generally aware of just how powerful their own imaginations are.

I can see it for some cases - under some overtly ethnocentric assumptions - but not at all for others. I don't see anything inherently bad labeling that which is adversary to you as a "demon" and then perhaps using anthropomorphisms as a narrative device to explore that adversary, for example. That is a way of believing in demons.

One could do that, but more importantly, how could such a thing possibly be positive. I'm fairly confident saying that ISIS and other religious fanatic see opposing forces as being demonic and that hasn't worked out too well for those who have chosen to suppress them. The problem I see with this, right off the bat, if used against other humans, is that it desensitizes the believer and could allow them to commit all kinds of atrocities as they are battling demons, not humans. That certainly explains the more barbaric unthinkable acts committed by ISIS, for example.

I also don't see anything inherently bad about someone supposing there is an otherworldly factor involved with a medical ailment such that they utilize modern and ancient practices (or even just one or the other - not really my business) to help cope with it. That is also a way of believing in demons.

The problem I see with it is that we have no proof of demons actually existing. You would think there would be thousands of fairly credible reports especially since the dawn of the Information age, but no, zip. Notta. Zilch. Key action word here is credible.

The only cases where I cringe a bit are those where traditional treatments are alleged to be counterproductive and cause harm, whether the patient is giving consensus or not. But even that is questionable given such assessments are, again, overtly ethnocentric. If some culture uses this as part of their customs, who the hell am I to tell them to knock it off?

With primitive culture I might well agree and play the long game instead. Education is a powerful thing, but it takes time to filter through and knock down age old ideas and prejudices. I could not extend that to primitive peoples living in a modern society though. Sorry. No can do.

 

[YmirGF]

Spirits and Demons?
Although the thread addresses the many physical, neurological and psychological conditions that could explain the miracles of Jesus, we do seem to be moving into the subject of 'Demons Today'.

It's reasonable to assume that all true Christians believe in Demons because if they don't then they don't believe the gospel stories. Fair enough?

I have heard that Muslims believe in Jinn? Are those a kind of Demon?

Lyndon writes that Buddha believed in Demons.

But what surprised (circa 2013) me was the number of atheists who are superstitious. On a mainly atheistic website I asked the question 'do you have any superstitions?' .
Several atheists responded and explained that they 'touched wood' or 'felt strange in certain places' etc etc, and some believed in ghosts. I particularly liked one post where a member reckoned that he could tell a bad person at first glance and believed this to be supernatural guidance.

Other atheists responded with heated posts, exclaiming that such beliefs and tenets are totally unreasonable in any true atheist, and then the thread temperature started to rise!

And so any members who believe that various superstitions exist only in primitive cultures then they are surely out of touch?

Go on! Eat me!

Hehe. One must keep in mind that fully half the human population is not all that bright. This would likely take care of a fairly large chunk of people who continue to believe in these unproductive ideas. Superstitions are another kettle of fish, though related, and would derail the thread rather rapidly. I assure you I would not get into a shouting match over belief in demons. I'd say my piece and leave it at that. I don't think my pulse ever goes up much while on RF although there was that one time that MysticSang'ha flounced through in very revealing clothing with her leather boots and a rather nasty looking bullwhip....

 

[oldbadger]

Hi there, I had seizures identical to those recorded in Matthew and what I can tell you is that I myself was and am convinced from the experience within my own body that I was being demon oppressed.

Hello.....
Seizures are as individual as finger prints........... some are very light conscious conditions, others can be very deep uinconscious 20 minute conditions.

Please note that I was conscious during my seizures. Something my mum had been told for years was impossible.

Whoever told your Mum that was a quack, because they can be as you describe.

Questions:
Did your seizures have phases, where different 'things' happened to you? For instance, some folks might experience a light change, or sound, or feeling/pain which might warn them that the seizure has commenced. That's the first phase. Second phase might be a stiffening of the body, or the head shaking and moving upwards. There can be many 'phases' in a seizure...... what were yours?

So that other sufferers whom mainstream medicine have been unable to help, might find healing through our Lord Jesus Christ, the Great and Amazing Physician.

Yours sincerely

So many epileptics die during seizures through falling, swallowing tongue, etc etc that modern medicine cannot gaurantee anything, and so if any folks can peace and harmony in Jesus, spiritual healing or any other religion then that is really great.

 

[YmirGF]

So many epileptics die during seizures through falling, swallowing tongue, etc etc that modern medicine cannot gaurantee anything, and so if any folks can peace and harmony in Jesus, spiritual healing or any other religion then that is really great.

It's so great that that is why doctors and nurses, the world over, burst into yells of "Hallelujah" and "Allahu akbar, baby" every time a patient has a seizure. Then they do a quick round of laying on of hands... yep... Great stuff, indeed.

 

[oldbadger]

Hehe. One must keep in mind that fully half the human population is not all that bright. This would likely take care of a fairly large chunk of people who continue to believe in these unproductive ideas.

Now don't get personal..... I touch wood!
Strangely, higher intellects don't seem to be protected from superstitions etc. And I knew a brilliant chemist who was placed in care after deciding that he was King John and he reckoned that he was good at bashing....... ghosts and demons!

Superstitions are another kettle of fish, though related, and would derail the thread rather rapidly. I assure you I would not get into a shouting match over belief in demons. I'd say my piece and leave it at that.

Wot? You're supposed to whip out a bible and start chanting various rants. I saw Vincent Price do these very same 'things' in 60's films.

I don't think my pulse ever goes up much while on RF although there was that one time that MysticSang'ha flounced through in very revealing clothing with her leather boots and a rather nasty looking bullwhip....

I remember!
If you fancy getting flayed alive by a dominant lady in leather then demons are the leastr of your worries!

 

[oldbadger]

It's so great that that is why doctors and nurses, the world over, burst into yells of "Hallelujah" and "Allahu akbar, baby" every time a patient has a seizure. Then they do a quick round of laying on of hands... yep... Great stuff, indeed.

Stop it!
No..... really! You don't know nuffin!
Many many epileptics are prescribed medications to calm them and cool 'em down.

It just happens to be true that counselling, healing, prayer, etc can achieve the same or better.

You rolling eyed demon.....

 

[JJ50]

Stop it!
No..... really! You don't know nuffin!
Many many epileptics are prescribed medications to calm them and cool 'em down.

It just happens to be true that counselling, healing, prayer, etc can achieve the same or better.

You rolling eyed demon.....

You are joking I take it?

 

[Grandliseur]

According to Matthew 17 v 14-18 it would appear Jesus believed those suffering from epilepsy were possessed by demons!

I have witnessed one demonic possession and the demon getting out of that person; I have had 3 personal experiences with demons and their actions that affected me personally. One of these was actually funny, another was unusual, and the third was a bit too much for me.

I like to see what is being spoken about. Here it is:

18 And Jesus rebuked him; and the demon went out of him: and the boy was cured from that hour.​

Other scriptures on the subject:

Matthew 4:24 And the report of him went forth into all Syria: and they brought unto him all that were sick, holden with divers diseases and torments, possessed with demons, and epileptic, and palsied; and he healed them.
Matthew 9:32-33 . . .people brought him a dumb man possessed of a demon; 33 and after the demon had been expelled the dumb man spoke.. . .

Matthew 8:28-29 . . .there met him two demon-possessed men coming out from among the memorial tombs, unusually fierce, so that nobody had the courage to pass by on that road. 29 And, look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?”
Mark 1:23-26 23 Also, at that immediate time there was in their synagogue a man under the power of an unclean spirit, and he shouted, 24 saying: “What have we to do with you, Jesus you Naz‧a‧rene′? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.” 25 But Jesus rebuked it, saying: “Be silent, and come on out of him!” 26 And the unclean spirit, after throwing him into a convulsion and yelling at the top of its voice, came on out of him.

Matthew 11:18 Correspondingly, John came neither eating nor drinking, yet people say, ‘He has a demon’;​

Job 2:7 . . .Satan went out away from the person of Jehovah and struck Job with a malignant boil from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.​

--------------------------

We have a problem here. The problem is that you as an unbeliever is trying to understand scripture while clearly rejecting some of it.
I have included some scriptures here so that you do not need to click to see what is said.

Let me begin from the bottom. In Job 2:7, we see that satan, this includes his fallen angels who serve him, can induce illnesses in people; though, here he had to get permission to do it. (prior to this verse, also control the weather, and people)

Common man's opinion
In Matthew 11:18, we see how John was accused of being demon possessed. Here then we are introduced to the common man's opinion versus what was true. This shows us that at that time, as even now happens, when people do not understand something, or have a gripe against someone, they accused these then as today of having a demon.

Possession
In Matthew 8:28-29 and Mark 1:23-26, we see that the ones truly possessed by demons were violent, or verbally abusive, (maybe not here); they spoke out to Jesus. In one case, when the demon/s came out of the person there were an epilepsy type reaction. In the case that I personally observed, there was a change from being demonic to becoming normal as if a light switch had been clicked.

Jesus
Jesus was not there to teach medicine or about demons. Thus, we see in Matthew 4:24 and Matthew 9:32-33 that Jesus cured all who came to him, be they ill, or affected by demons. In the case of the one with epilepsy we see that scripture said, 'the boy was cured from that hour. ' In this way, though epileptic like things occurred when demons came out, we are shown that it was an illness. But, again, the common man could not distinguish the difference then, and perhaps not even today. Since satan and the demons can induce illness mental and physical, we have a strange state of not knowing what the cause may be at times. Most mental illness is not demonic in origin in the sense of the person being possessed. Likewise, epilepsy is not demonic possession, but might have aspects that also occur when a demon is forced out of a person.

You should look at a Youtube video about Desmond. Personally, I do not view these videos except when I have to.
This one is on the benign side. Some videos are way beyond this.
Link: >

<

Demons are real, satan is real. If you want more exciting videos, search for demon magic.

 

[JesusBeliever]

Hello.....
Seizures are as individual as finger prints........... some are very light conscious conditions, others can be very deep uinconscious 20 minute conditions.


Whoever told your Mum that was a quack, because they can be as you describe.

That was Mainstream Medical knowledge at the time (40 years ago). I am aware that they've advanced greatly and now acknowledge seizures in which the sufferer is conscious.

Questions:
Did your seizures have phases, where different 'things' happened to you? For instance, some folks might experience a light change, or sound, or feeling/pain which might warn them that the seizure has commenced. That's the first phase. Second phase might be a stiffening of the body, or the head shaking and moving upwards. There can be many 'phases' in a seizure...... what were yours?

You've basically described my experience before losing consciousness and falling and choking on tongue like you describe below.

So many epileptics die during seizures through falling, swallowing tongue, etc etc that modern medicine cannot gaurantee anything, and so if any folks can peace and harmony in Jesus, spiritual healing or any other religion then that is really great.

Yeah, mum said sometimes I would come into her and be a blue/purple color, that is when I managed to reach her. One time I fell and smashed my face on and old typewriter that was on the floor. Didn't feel a thing at the time but the next morning "Ouch". Through those years my mum telling me that Jesus loved me was about the only comfort I had at times. Until I was old enough to call on the Lord myself and be healed.

Thanks for your post.

 

[JJ50]

Why do you even post a religious question when you are of such unbending atheistic conviction? Isn't that stupid!

If all you are going to tell people who answers a religious question, that it is 'garbage' - you seem like an idiot for asking in the first place. I know of people who are not Christian who daily communicate verbally with their deities. So, garbage back to you. Isn't this just great, we can continue repeating this word to each other until we both die of old age.

Having been a 'born again' Christian as a young person, a horrible experience, I will now challenge extremist religious views like those stated as fact that god, angels, Satan and demons exist, when it is only a matter of belief.

 

[Desert Snake]

GARBAGE!

Were you involved in the occult?

 

[Grandliseur]

Having been a 'born again' Christian as a young person, a horrible experience, I will now challenge extremist religious views like those stated as fact that god, angels, Satan and demons exist, when it is only a matter of belief.

Challenge away, but it is not smart to post a religious question and asking for answers and then simply dismiss these answers with atheistic insults. If you want an exchange, respectfully, either engage respectfully, or do not engage at all.

All the dirt throwing only makes any communication undesirable and impossible. I have my not so nice opinion about atheists, but why should this be voiced?! Why not try to let others believe as they do and call them insults in your heart, if you need to.

 

[JesusBeliever]

Having been a 'born again' Christian as a young person, a horrible experience,

Hi, would it help to talk about your experience?

 

[Desert Snake]

Hi, would it help to talk about your experience?

It would help to know if op was in the occult.

 

[JesusBeliever]

It would help to know if op was in the occult.

Did you mean to say occult or did you mean cult??

 

[JJ50]

Hi, would it help to talk about your experience?

The idea that unbelievers would go to the mythical hell and burn in its flames were a feature of my childhood. Any god that would do that for mere unbelief is the worst sort psycho, imo. It was a great relief when I lost my faith at the age of 19 when I left home and married. I am now 67 and haven't missed it.

My husband and I let our children decide for themselves about matters of faith. They are Christians, the eldest girl an Anglican priest, fortunately none of them are Biblical literalists nor do they try to force their faith on others. I have no problem with moderates of any faith, it is extremists I cannot abide.

 

[Desert Snake]

Did you mean to say occult or did you mean cult??

Involved in the occult.

 

[JesusBeliever]

The idea that unbelievers would go to the mythical hell and burn in its flames were a feature of my childhood.

I can relate and do not believe in the traditional interpretation of Hell. I'm what's known as a believer in Universal Reconciliation.

Any god that would do that for mere unbelief is the worst sort psycho, imo.

The Bible itself doesn't even support this. The best example I can give is Romans 11:30-33:

"For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" Romans 11:30-33

My husband and I let our children decide for themselves about matters of faith. They are Christians, the eldest girl an Anglican priest, fortunately none of them are Biblical literalists nor do they try to force their faith on others. I have no problem with moderates of any faith, it is extremists I cannot abide.

I can relate to this too. It was meeting such extremists as an unbeliever as well as a babe believer that drove me to read the Bible in the first place. Now I'd probably be classed as an extremist myself however I always try to use it to uplift people rather than tear people down. Many are of the belief that people won't believe unless they're motivated by fear. I have found the opposite to be true.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Desert Snake]

///

Having been a 'born again' Christian as a young person, a horrible experience, I will now challenge extremist religious views like those stated as fact that god, angels, Satan and demons exist, when it is only a matter of belief.

You posted this thread asking about demonic possession or such, yet you won't even answer the question as to whether you were involved in the occult.

So why ask the fake question? What is the debate? People disagree with you. Get over it.