Epilepsy = demonic possession!

[Etritonakin]

The psychic research was eventually shut down because it produced nothing, but it's actually pretty scary how accurately that movie does reflect reality, including the part of trying to train people to kill by thought, and even lacing the water with LSD and giving it to unsuspecting troops (it wasn't a party though). Of course it's exaggerated to fill a comical purpose, but the government is that nutty, that sadistic, that batty, and that cruel.

I suppose the rationale is that they (most if not all governments) should research everything -because someone else will.
Knowledge and participation are very different, however, and it is advisable in many cases to let others get into risky behavior and learn from their mistakes.

As for producing nothing..... It's not like they would skip around and cry aloud if it did produce something.

 

[JJ50]

///


You posted this thread asking about demonic possession or such, yet you won't even answer the question as to whether you were involved in the occult.

So why ask the fake question? What is the debate? People disagree with you. Get over it.

Occult?

 

[idav]

Well I won't rain any anyones' parade.

Hehe. One must keep in mind that fully half the human population is not all that bright. This would likely take care of a fairly large chunk of people who continue to believe in these unproductive ideas. Superstitions are another kettle of fish, though related, and would derail the thread rather rapidly. I assure you I would not get into a shouting match over belief in demons. I'd say my piece and leave it at that. I don't think my pulse ever goes up much while on RF although there was that one time that MysticSang'ha flounced through in very revealing clothing with her leather boots and a rather nasty looking bullwhip....

You missed the part that eight out of ten Americans know angels exist.

 

[Desert Snake]

Occult?

Yes, demonic activity can follow involvement in the occult.

 

[YmirGF]

You missed the part that eight out of ten Americans know angels exist.

I assure you that I didn't miss anything. I can't think of a single person I have known who thought that angels existed. Wait, there was one weirdo that had mental problems that I knew when I was in my late teens. Okay, 1 person in my entire lifetime. Then again, I live in uber-left-wing atheist land.

 

[idav]

I assure you that I didn't miss anything. I can't think of a single person I have known who thought that angels existed. Wait, there was one weirdo that had mental problems that I knew when I was in my late teens. Okay, 1 person in my entire lifetime. Then again, I live in uber-left-wing atheist land.

I meant the "know" part but I think you get the picture.

 

[JJ50]

Yes, demonic activity can follow involvement in the occult.

An assertion without any evidence to support it. A lot of the things in the Bible could be described as dabbling in the occult, like the exorcism hocus pocus. I see no difference in that guy, Jesus, playing that game, and what witch doctors get up to!

 

[oldbadger]

You are joking I take it?

No......
I can assure you that psychotherapy, counselling, healing, religion can have a tremendous effect upon some hysteria and some epileptic patients.

 

[JJ50]

No......
I can assure you that psychotherapy, counselling, healing, religion can have a tremendous effect upon some hysteria and some epileptic patients.

Religion is more likely to have a bad affect on people.

 

[Quintessence]

From my view, the problem with holding onto these extreme ideas in light of modern thought is that doing so could cause a schism to form in the mind of the believer. A split between the rational and the irrational. Considering how irrational people can be in normal terms, adding this stress to the mix could likely cause problems depending on the strength of the belief.

What about the benefits? In my experience, any particular set of ideas can have a wide variety of impacts depending on context and situation. Why look only at the problematic manifestations? At a minimum, anthropomorphizing things we consider evil can be a more comfortable way of addressing things we find challenging. For example, when maladies strike we are often looking for someone or something to blame. Not being able to assign blame can cause us a fair amount of distress. Giving the guilty party a name - even if it's some otherworldly entity that to many "does not exist" or some such - can help a person navigate the emotional turnmoil of the event in a way that dry, scientific explanations cannot for many people. I tend to see demonization as a component of myth making - something we do to help relate to the world meaningfully. For good and for ill, really.

What is troubling is that we have virtually no scientifically documented cases of demonic possession.

I find it weird that this would be an expectation. There isn't supposed to be scientific documentation - the weaving of demonic mythos isn't a scientific endeavor. It's a story we weave, and stories have power. You put it a bit differently, though...

We do have a rather lot of people with very vivid imaginations. What is even more problematic is the average person is not generally aware of just how powerful their own imaginations are.

Or how they can use that as a tool through things like myth making to benefit themselves and their lives.

I'm fairly confident saying that ISIS and other religious fanatic see opposing forces as being demonic and that hasn't worked out too well for those who have chosen to suppress them.

Just wanted to make a quick note about this - I think there are some really important differences between the process of demonizing something in the otherworlds versus demonizing something in the apparent world. Really, really important differences. I was under the impression we were not discussing demonization of things in the apparent world, so I'm going to stick to that assumption. I can certainly speak to both points, but the results of demonizing things in the apparent world are a very different beast than deflecting that into the otherworlds (also, everybody demonizes things in the apparent world - this very thread is an exercise in demonizing people who believe in demons, ironically enough).

 

[oldbadger]

Religion is more likely to have a bad affect on people.

On you. Religion could have a bad effect upon you.

But for an hysterical or epileptic person who absolutely puts their heart and faith into a religion, healer, counsellor, therapist then the effects can be extremely beneficial.

I have intimate knowledge of this particular subject based upon one person who suffered Grande and Petit Mal as well as extreme Hysteria. When I say extreme I mean more extreme than any case that Freud ever filmed, and he filmed some extreme cases!

This can even extend beyond the placebo effect. Strangely (to me) even total skeptics who have been told that they are on placebo medication can benefit from it.

This is probably how Yeshua BarYosef caused astonishing effects upon folks in the G-Mark stories. Have you ever heard of Charismatic Stun? I reckon that's what he could do.

 

[JJ50]

On you. Religion could have a bad effect upon you.

But for an hysterical or epileptic person who absolutely puts their heart and faith into a religion, healer, counsellor, therapist then the effects can be extremely beneficial.

I have intimate knowledge of this particular subject based upon one person who suffered Grande and Petit Mal as well as extreme Hysteria. When I say extreme I mean more extreme than any case that Freud ever filmed, and he filmed some extreme cases!

This can even extend beyond the placebo effect. Strangely (to me) even total skeptics who have been told that they are on placebo medication can benefit from it.

This is probably how Yeshua BarYosef caused astonishing effects upon folks in the G-Mark stories. Have you ever heard of Charismatic Stun? I reckon that's what he could do.

Epilepsy is a PHYSICAL condition not a mental one, and medication to control the seizures is what is required.

 

[oldbadger]

Epilepsy is a PHYSICAL condition not a mental one, and medication to control the seizures is what is required.

.... Many epileptics are prescribed with calming, slowing, placating medications as well as drugs like epilim, epanutim etc.
Look up ospalot, zarontim, mogadon as well.
In fact a calmed patient can be seizure free.
Ergo, religion, healing, counselling, therapy can have major benefits.

 

[JesusBeliever]

Epilepsy is a PHYSICAL condition not a mental one

That's not actually correct. I'm pretty sure if you google it you'll find it's classified as a neurological disorder.

 

[YmirGF]

Thank you again for a thoughtful response, @Quintessence
It is appreciated.

What about the benefits? In my experience, any particular set of ideas can have a wide variety of impacts depending on context and situation. Why look only at the problematic manifestations? At a minimum, anthropomorphizing things we consider evil can be a more comfortable way of addressing things we find challenging. For example, when maladies strike we are often looking for someone or something to blame. Not being able to assign blame can cause us a fair amount of distress. Giving the guilty party a name - even if it's some otherworldly entity that to many "does not exist" or some such - can help a person navigate the emotional turnmoil of the event in a way that dry, scientific explanations cannot for many people. I tend to see demonization as a component of myth making - something we do to help relate to the world meaningfully. For good and for ill, really.

I have no real problem with myth-making as long as one understands, and remembers at all times, that they are feeding a myth. A myth should never be confused with reality as that is why we call them myths or creative story-telling. Though I do not flatly reject your assertion that there could be temporary benefits in offloading emotional torment onto nefarious other-worldly beings, it is my belief that due to the nature of the notions of demons, those beliefs can result in unexpected consequences down the road.

Personally, if someone came to me and quietly told me they had decided that an other-worldly entity was the cause of such and such a calamity I would immediately assume that that unfortunate person had taken leave of their senses and was in danger of losing their grip on reality. Yes, you can put me into the Zero Tolerance camp on that one.

At the same time, I would be gauging their level of intelligence. It's just something I do. If I deemed the person to be below normal intelligence I'd likely conclude that that was the real cause of their decision to look to an other-worldly component... as there is no satisfactory reason to come to such a conclusion.

On the blame issue, I'd likely point out that there doesn't need to be someone or something to blame and even if that doesn't sit well that is no reason to entertain the indefensible.

I find it weird that this would be an expectation. There isn't supposed to be scientific documentation - the weaving of demonic mythos isn't a scientific endeavor. It's a story we weave, and stories have power. You put it a bit differently, though...

I did laugh at this one. Sorry. There isn't supposed to be any documented cases? Out of 7 billion living people we have no reasonably suspicious cases? No cases where the medical community is standing slack-jawed and fumbling with their clipboards? Okay.

Or how they can use that as a tool through things like myth making to benefit themselves and their lives.

I see it more as short term gain for long term pain myself. Living a lie can be amusing, even gratifying, but it will eventually come out and then what? Create new myths to shore up the psychological defenses?

Just wanted to make a quick note about this - I think there are some really important differences between the process of demonizing something in the

otherworlds versus demonizing something in the apparent world. Really, really important differences. I was under the impression we were not discussing demonization of things in the apparent world, so I'm going to stick to that assumption. I can certainly speak to both points, but the results of demonizing things in the apparent world are a very different beast than deflecting that into the otherworlds (also, everybody demonizes things in the apparent world - this very thread is an exercise in demonizing people who believe in demons, ironically enough).

Hehe. True, but demonizing and belief in demons are two very, very different things. Demonizing a political opponent is not quite the same thing as pointing as a person undergoing a seizure and screaming, "DEMON!" With demonizing, most people of normal intelligence understand the rhetoric and that it is hyperbole. It's rarely meant literally. Even Chavez standing at the podium at the UN saying he could still smell the sulfur in the air after George Bush had given his speech was most likely just theatrics. I doubt many thought he literally meant it. People who claim demons on the other hand, in general, do mean it - fervently and literally. It is rare that the term is meant symbolically or metaphorically.

 

[JJ50]

That's not actually correct. I'm pretty sure if you google it you'll find it's classified as a neurological disorder.

You seem to be rather confused as to what neurological actually means. Epilepsy is not a mental disorder.

 

[YmirGF]

You seem to be rather confused as to what neurological actually means. Epilepsy is not a mental disorder.

Though it may or may not have neurological components, hence the confusion perhaps... but yes, it is not a mental disorder.

 

[Skwim]

From Harvard Health Publications: Harvard Medical School

"There was a time when epilepsy was not clearly distinguished from psychiatric disorders. Researchers eventually clarified the origins of epilepsy in the brain. Still, epileptic seizures are a brain malfunction, and so are major depression, anxiety disorders, and psychoses. While epilepsy is no longer considered a psychiatric disorder, its psychiatric dimension is important for treatment and research, reports the May issue of the Harvard Mental Health Letter."
source

.​

 

[Quintessence]

I have no real problem with myth-making as long as one understands, and remembers at all times, that they are feeding a myth. A myth should never be confused with reality as that is why we call them myths or creative story-telling.

Just so long as we also remember that not everyone defines "reality" as the apparent world alone. To translate that into my language, I would say you mean "don't confuse your planes of reality with each other."

Though I do not flatly reject your assertion that there could be temporary benefits in offloading emotional torment onto nefarious other-worldly beings, it is my belief that due to the nature of the notions of demons, those beliefs can result in unexpected consequences down the road.

Yeah, that's true. This also seems to be the case in general, though, so I'm not sure this is a black mark on this sort of thing specifically. Regardless, life would be terribly boring if nothing unexpected ever happened.

Personally, if someone came to me and quietly told me they had decided that an other-worldly entity was the cause of such and such a calamity I would immediately assume that that unfortunate person had taken leave of their senses and was in danger of losing their grip on reality. Yes, you can put me into the Zero Tolerance camp on that one.

Honestly, my reaction to such talk doesn't tend to be much better on the face of it, but I like to stop, pause, and listen; see where they are coming from and all that. If demonic possession is part of their worldview, it is as their reality. Then, working within that paradigm may be more helpful to them than attempting something foreign that they can't relate to or possibly even understand. Or not. I don't see these as black-and-white, either-or things.

I did laugh at this one. Sorry. There isn't supposed to be any documented cases? Out of 7 billion living people we have no reasonably suspicious cases? No cases where the medical community is standing slack-jawed and fumbling with their clipboards? Okay.

Maybe I should clarify? Or maybe I don't quite understand what it is you were intending to get across there? I thought the general observation of "don't expect something that isn't science to be scientific" was fairly straightforward.

I see it more as short term gain for long term pain myself. Living a lie can be amusing, even gratifying, but it will eventually come out and then what? Create new myths to shore up the psychological defenses?

I realize I have no business asking, but is that a conclusion that comes out of personal experience? The perspective is understandable for those who had a rough time with a paradigm shift. I haven't had such misfortune strike, perhaps because I tend to bear in mind I'm a dumb, hairless mammal who doesn't know $#@% one way or another. Keeps one from getting too settled in anything, really.

 

[Sanzbir]

According to Matthew 17 v 14-18 it would appear Jesus believed those suffering from epilepsy were possessed by demons!

Strictly speaking it would mean that those who witnessed Jesus curing an "epileptic" child attributed the symptoms to demons. (Though personally I'm not going to speculate on what the actual mental problems the child suffered based on the few details recorded, not nearly certain enough to claim it epilepsy)

Or did you not notice it's not written from a first-person perspective??