Eternal grovelling or nonexistence?

[Enoch07]

What sarcasm? I asked you to be specific; you just wasted another post.

:biglaugh: How can I be specific about what upset me when I am not upset? Thats kinda a crazy question to ask. So who wasted a post again?

 

[Breathe]

This is mainly for the Abrahamic religions. Some believers say hell isn't eternal torture but simply nonexistence. Would you prefer to spend eternity worshipping God or to cease to exist?

You make out like that's all that will be done, as though worshipping God would be a bad thing. That's a rather... narrow view, don't you think?

 

[McBell]

Then switch "grovelling" with "worship." I think the words are interchangeable.

From what I have seen, for many people they are.
Though they do not see it as such.

In fact, I predict that those who are most "insulted" by the comparison are most likely the guilty ones.

Though i will say that for the most part, for the majority here on RF I do not believe they are interchangeable. However, there are a few here on RF...

 

[OmarKhayyam]

You make out like that's all that will be done, as though worshipping God would be a bad thing. That's a rather... narrow view, don't you think?

I don't speak for him but for ME, no. Not narrow at all

Why would I want to defer to to genocidal killer who condones - nay encourages - slavery and rape?

 

[Evandr]

This is mainly for the Abrahamic religions. Some believers say hell isn't eternal torture but simply nonexistence. Would you prefer to spend eternity worshipping God or to cease to exist?

When Lucifer (the son of the morning) was cast out for rebellion along with one third the host of Heaven the realm to which He was cast we know as outer darkness or Hell.

It is safe to say that that happened a very long time ago and Lucifer is still bugging everybody. I don't think that a non-existent state of being would give you the tools to do that.

I believe that Hell is simply the state of mind of those who have gotten themselves locked out from the presence of God and know what they are missing. I can get plenty angry and anguished over loosing a little money because of my own foolishness, I can't even imagine what kind of mental anguish I would suffer knowing that my foolishness and stupidity got me eternally banished from the presence of God.

Another thing - I read earlier in this thread that it is better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. The big problem with that mindless statement is that no one, not even the devil himself, rules in hell, I mean "what is Lucifer going to do to you for disobedience?" - Your already in Hell for crying-out-loud. On the other hand, those who have kept the commandments and gained a state of perfection sufficient to live in the presence of God need not be ruled for everyone would know and be perfectly willing to keep the laws that are necessary to be there in an eternal state of happiness and increase. Although there are eternal laws that need to be followed to maintain eternal glory no one needs to rule in Heaven and no one can rule in Hell.

 

[Breathe]

I don't speak for him but for ME,

In other words, you're butting in.

no. Not narrow at all

Why would I want to defer to to genocidal killer who condones - nay encourages - slavery and rape?

I understand this, I'm playing devil's advocate though

 

[CarlinKnew]

When Lucifer (the son of the morning) was cast out for rebellion along with one third the host of Heaven the realm to which He was cast we know as outer darkness or Hell.

It is safe to say that that happened a very long time ago and Lucifer is still bugging everybody. I don't think that a non-existent state of being would give you the tools to do that.

This may be a topic for a different thread, but you raise an interesting point. For the Christians who don't believe that anyone gets sent to Hell, where does Satan reside? Perhaps just Satan and his close buddies are in Hell, but no humans get sent there?

I believe that Hell is simply the state of mind of those who have gotten themselves locked out from the presence of God and know what they are missing. I can get plenty angry and anguished over loosing a little money because of my own foolishness, I can't even imagine what kind of mental anguish I would suffer knowing that my foolishness and stupidity got me eternally banished from the presence of God.

So you believe Hell is just a state of mind, not a destination of eternal damnation? Or does that state of mind last forever after death?

 

[sojourner]

Do you not consider God to be your master? I don't see the problem here. Wouldn't most Christians gladly grovel before the almighty God?

I see God as my Father. I certainly don't grovel before my father. Most Xians would gladly run into the arms of God's loving embrace.

 

[sojourner]

I don't speak for him but for ME, no. Not narrow at all

Why would I want to defer to to genocidal killer who condones - nay encourages - slavery and rape?

Oh, here we go again! Puhleeeeze don't tell me you're in Zhakir's twisted camp!
This is childish, overtly provocative, and uncalled for. And now you're going to pull the literalistic view and say, "Well, it's right there in black-and-white."
Why don't you just stop it before you embarrass yourself?

 

[McBell]

Oh, here we go again! Puhleeeeze don't tell me you're in Zhakir's twisted camp!
This is childish, overtly provocative, and uncalled for. And now you're going to pull the literalistic view and say, "Well, it's right there in black-and-white."
Why don't you just stop it before you embarrass yourself?

Please explain how a global flood is not genocide?
As far as the slavery part, He has that right.
I am not so sure about the rape thing.
However, he did forget human sacrifice.

 

[sojourner]

Please explain how a global flood is not genocide?
As far as the slavery part, He has that right.
I am not so sure about the rape thing.
However, he did forget human sacrifice.

I guess neither one of you has ever heard of metaphor as a literary device?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This is mainly for the Abrahamic religions. Some believers say hell isn't eternal torture but simply nonexistence. Would you prefer to spend eternity worshipping God or to cease to exist?

Have no preferences personally concerning mere concepts, but am sure the reality of 'Eternal God' whatever it is, will be realized at the appointed time for each deceased soul.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

.

Another thing - I read earlier in this thread that it is better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. The big problem with that mindless statement is that no one, not even the devil himself, rules in hell, I mean "what is Lucifer going to do to you for disobedience?" - Your already in Hell for crying-out-loud. On the other hand, those who have kept the commandments and gained a state of perfection sufficient to live in the presence of God need not be ruled for everyone would know and be perfectly willing to keep the laws that are necessary to be there in an eternal state of happiness and increase. Although there are eternal laws that need to be followed to maintain eternal glory no one needs to rule in Heaven and no one can rule in Hell.

Umm. Curious statement. Not only does the post fail to recognize the quote but it fails to grasp the import. One can only wonder at such ignorance.

However just to belabor the obvious and restate well known: The line is from Milton’s Paradise Lost, Book One. Satan has just been thrown out of heaven and finds himself and his followers in Hell. It is not a pleasant place. But – he is free.
Here at least
We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence: [ 260 ]
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n.

It is this steely defiance this refusal to yield even to superior force that has made Milton’s Satan somewhat sympatric to the modern reader. And it is the point that was being made in my original post. For some of us freedom is more important than comfort. A heavenly existence of endless submission and self-effacing toadying done to some feed some divine and insatiable ego is an odious existence. We will have none of it. And if hell is the result then so be it. We make that choice with full knowledge and no regret.:yes:

We would truly rather be free in hell than a god’s servant in heaven.

That was the point being made and it clearly was beyond the grasp of the poster. So we see once again how belief in this mythology blinds the reasoning ability.:cover:

 

[McBell]

I guess neither one of you has ever heard of metaphor as a literary device?

Sarcasm


Yeah, that must be it.


End Sarcasm

 

[sojourner]

Sarcasm


Yeah, that must be it.


End Sarcasm

Whatevah. We all know he's just here to flame Xy with drivel. I get tired of it.

 

[McBell]

Whatevah. We all know he's just here to flame Xy with drivel. I get tired of it.

I can actually agree with that.
But the denial of what is plainly presented in the Bible only further fuels his flames.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"I guess neither one of you has ever heard of metaphor as a literary device?"

Ah, but I have my good Sir. I have indeed.

But god directing his people to "take wives from among those conquered" is rape.
If you wish to defend your god anyway proceed. But most of us will find that practice rape no matter how much legalese and tribal custom you muster in its defense. Or literary device.

 

[sojourner]

"I guess neither one of you has ever heard of metaphor as a literary device?"

Ah, but I have my good Sir. I have indeed.

But god directing his people to "take wives from among those conquered" is rape.
If you wish to defend your god anyway proceed. But most of us will find that practice rape no matter how much legalese and tribal custom you muster in its defense. Or literary device.

You're gonna find just what you want to find, no matter what I say. but you'll still be wrong. And foolish.

God directing his people to take wives from among those conquered represent an ancient understanding of God, and represents a different cultural context from ours. It also represents, not what God particularly said, but what the author understood God to say.

You don't have to believe in the Bible, particularly, to believe in God, you know.

 

[CarlinKnew]

I see God as my Father. I certainly don't grovel before my father. Most Xians would gladly run into the arms of God's loving embrace.

The Christian God is called "The LORD," a self explanatory title, "lord" being synonymous with "master". He demands worship at the threat of eternal punishment. He's not just a father but a master.

 

[Willamena]

The Christian God is called "The LORD," a self explanatory title, "lord" being synonymous with "master". He demands worship at the threat of eternal punishment. He's not just a father but a master.

A "master" is one for whom respect, honor and worship is given. In other words, a master is "master" from the subject's perspective, not from his own perspective.