eternal universe?

[paarsurrey]

From what?

From non-existence:
[6:2]All praise belongs to Allah Who created the heavens and the earth and brought into being every kind of darkness and light; yet those who disbelieve set up equals to their Lord.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=6

Regards

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Cool experiment! However I don't see "spirit" here. I see what happens when a substance is vibrating at a frequency that creates zones of high activity/movement/bounce, and zones of a minimum of such, and smaller, free particles are placed on it. That it follows patterns on a square piece of metal of (approximately) uniform density at particular frequencies is no surprise at all. As you could see, there were imperfections in the symmetry of the pattern at points - owing to parts of the metal not being perfectly uniform, or the signal not being perfectly distributed throughout the test platform. What I'm trying to say is - this is not magic in any way, shape or form.

Put another way - I could keep track, over time, of the relative times I took my dog out to do its business each day. If I then selected a framework within which to graph the points of data with regard to time, and I stacked this data into segments that allowed me to average all the points together, you'd begin to see a "mysterious" thing! There would be a definitive pattern to the plot - a symmetry and flow to the fluctuation of the points. Whether or not the dog crapped, or only urinated, etc. Patterns would develop. Does this mean my dog crapping and pissing itself silly is activity that has a "spirit" behind it? I mean... maybe it does, I don't know. That'd be a pretty lame job for a supernatural entity though, in my opinion.

I don't see walking your dog in anyway analogous to the experiment...or spirit? The reality represented by the concept of spirit are the vibrations that are responsible for creation, preservation, and destruction...analogous to the vibrations that move the particles in the experiment.. Spirit is omnipresent meaning it throughout all space, macro and micro....and experiments like the Casimir Effect show that this space is full of vibrations that can move matter... In fact these vibrations, called zero point energy or quantum vacuum fluctuations, extend way higher in frequency than any known technology can measure...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

All you have to do is define spirit as vibration and you're home free.
.

So how do you define spirit.....solid matter?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

From non-existence:
[6:2]All praise belongs to Allah Who created the heavens and the earth and brought into being every kind of darkness and light; yet those who disbelieve set up equals to their Lord.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=6

Regards

Ok...are you saying that the sum total of matter and energy of the universe was created by Allah from nothing?

 

[Skwim]

So how do you define spirit.....solid matter?

I'll go along with the dictionary definitions.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I'll go along with the dictionary definitions.

Fine if that satisfies an agnostic...I sought the actual reality represented by the concept....and found it is real and it is a vibration.. aummmm.....

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I don't see walking your dog in anyway analogous to the experiment...or spirit?

Plotting a set of points that describe my dog doing its business and seeing a pattern form in the FREQUENCIES of activity is actually very analogous to the experiment. In the experiment, the points of activity and non-activity were being "plotted" by the grains of salt.

And as far as walking my dog not being analogous to "spirit" - well... that was EXACTLY my point.

 

[Thief]

Then we can calculate the maximal speed of spirits in vacuum.

Ciao

- viole

I have considered.....indeed!
what if spirit is held to that one limit....unable to exceed the speed of light?

new topic?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Plotting a set of points that describe my dog doing its business and seeing a pattern form in the FREQUENCIES of activity is actually very analogous to the experiment. In the experiment, the points of activity and non-activity were being "plotted" by the grains of salt.

And as far as walking my dog not being analogous to "spirit" - well... that was EXACTLY my point.

But the experiment shows that it is the energy of the vibrations that creates....and the frequency that determines the pattern of creation.....that is not the same as walking your dog and seeing a pattern... Now if you are implying that it is the cosmic vibrations of the omnipresent quantum vacuum that is causing you to walk that pattern...then that is another matter and more in line with the experiment...

 

[gnostic]

Vibrations, fields, waves, energies, light. These are all or almost all measurable.

Spirits are not. And there are no evidences to support the existences of spirits...not unless you mean "spirits" as alcohol drinks.

And there no evidences to link spirits with light, energies or vibrations, etc.

Spirits are nothing more than superstition or superstitious belief.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Vibrations, fields, waves, energies, light. These are all or almost all measurable.

Spirits are not. And there are no evidences to support the existences of spirits...not unless you mean "spirits" as alcohol drinks.

And there no evidences to link spirits with light, energies or vibrations, etc.

Spirits are nothing more than superstition or superstitious belief.

It is just a matter of semantics....the reality represented by the concept of spirit is an immaterial omnipresent energy.... There is a scientifically verified immaterial omnipresent energy called the zero point energy of the quantum vacuum.... Therefore it follows that the zpe could be the same reality represented by spirit.. Now zpe/spiritual energy can interact with and move matter....so this is a creative and or destructive force wrt form...

 

[gnostic]

It is just a matter of semantics....the reality represented by the concept of spirit is an immaterial omnipresent energy.... There is a scientifically verified immaterial omnipresent energy called the zero point energy of the quantum vacuum.... Therefore it follows that the zpe could be the same reality represented by spirit.. Now zpe/spiritual energy can interact with and move matter....so this is a creative and or destructive force wrt form...

You have provided claim after claim about zpe and energy (of any sort), but nothing to tie them to spirits.

Unless you can provide conclusive evidences for the existence of any spirit, you are just making empty association.

Any Tom, Dick and Harry can make claims that you have made, but they could not possibly verify that sort of claims, and apparently neither can you.

Can you provide peer-reviewed and verifiable scientific papers, which actually CONNECT this spirit of yours to zero-point-energy?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You have provided claim after claim about zpe and energy (of any sort), but nothing to tie them to spirits.

Unless you can provide conclusive evidences for the existence of any spirit, you are just making empty association.

Any Tom, Dick and Harry can make claims that you have made, but they could not possibly verify that sort of claims, and apparently neither can you.

Can you provide peer-reviewed and verifiable scientific papers, which actually CONNECT this spirit of yours to zero-point-energy?

But I am equating zpe with spirit....all that you are saying is that the reality represented by the concept of zpe is not the same reality represented by the concept of spirit....prove it?

 

[gnostic]

But I am equating zpe with spirit....all that you are saying is that zpe is not spirit.

No, ben. You are making a claim that spirit "exist", not me. So the burden of proof falls on you, ben.

I have no a single scientific paper that connect zpe and spirit together. You show me a source or two, in which actual scientists say zpe is spirit.

You are making claim about spirit, so you prove it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No, ben. You are making a claim that spirit "exist", not me. So the burden of proof falls on you, ben.

I have no a single scientific paper that connect zpe and spirit together. You show me a source or two, in which actual scientists say zpe is spirit.

You are making claim about spirit, so you prove it.

Science does not do religion....so they have nothing to say!

 

[gnostic]

Science does not do religion....

I have never say it did.

But the reverse is also true: religion does not do science.

But you are the one who is making claim that scientific model of zero-point-energy is spirit. For you to make such a claim, then you are the one who has the burden of proof.

So unless you can prove this zpe-spirit connection with some peer-review papers, then you indeed have nothing.

I know for a fact, that no peer-reviews (to date) on ZPE have ever mentioned "spirit". Their silence on "spirit" is actually quite deafening, but the real question is that are you man enough to admit this connection is nothing more than your opinion or that you are in error.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I have never say it did.

But the reverse is also true: religion does not do science.

But you are the one who is making claim that scientific model of zero-point-energy is spirit. For you to make such a claim, then you are the one who has the burden of proof.

So unless you can prove this zpe-spirit connection with some peer-review papers, then you indeed have nothing.

I know for a fact, that no peer-reviews (to date) on ZPE have ever mentioned "spirit". Their silence on "spirit" is actually quite deafening, but the real question is that are you man enough to admit this connection is nothing more than your opinion or that you are in error.

There is no science case for spirit and there is no theological/religiousl case for zpe....but since I study both science and religion....I can and do make the case on a forum such as this... It would not be done in a purely science setting or a theological/religious setting...

 

[gnostic]

There is no science case for spirit and there is no theological/religiousl case for zpe....but since I study both science and religion....I can and do make the case on a forum such as this... It would not be done in a purely science setting or a theological/religious setting...

That come very close to admission that you cannot prove or verify the connection of the two.

Then it is simply your sheer arrogance that you think they are one and the same, and that you think you know more about both science and religion, but clearly you are failing both.

This zpe=spirit is therefore you pseudoscience invention.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That come very close to admission that you cannot prove or verify the connection of the two.

Then it is simply your sheer arrogance that you think they are one and the same, and that you think you know more about both science and religion, but clearly you are failing both.

There is no connection between the two except in name...for reality wise they are one and the same....'a rose by any other name would smell as sweet'...

 

[gnostic]

There is no connection between the two except in name...for reality wise they are one and the same....'a rose by any other name would smell as sweet'...

Except spirit is nothing more than either superstition or myth, or it is a superstitious delusion.

Energy is either (A) measurable, therefore verifiable (evidence), or (B) it is capable of being solve mathematically, therefore provable (proof).

Spirit is neither of these two.

And when you try to mix science and religion together, as you (and thief) do, you get psuedoscience mumbo-jumbo.