• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

eternal universe?

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
"Time" is just the human way of measuring motion. Some kind of motion started Big Bang if you believe in this, so time was there even before the Big Bang. That is: "Time" is eternal and so is the Universe.

Vibrations are everywhere and forever. The universal "source" of creation is electromagnetic which creates everything, dissolves everything and re-create everything.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
energy can be transformed....it cannot be destroyed
(grade school science class)
You are correct to a point...

What you've seemed to left out, is the part that energy has to come from some sorts of MATTERS or PARTICLES.

And matters and most particles have MASSES, which can produce the energy.

The energy don't come from nowhere. This is why modern science view mass and energy.

For instance, the (human) body have mass. At rest, it has potential energy to the work.

But the human body gain energy from a variety of sources, and not just from the muscles alone.

Some of the examples of different sources that I can think of at the top of my head, even through I am not a biologist:
  1. The body required energy, like fuel. This fuel we see as food that we eat and digest. These food can have any of the natural energy sources, for instances, fat/oil, proteins and sugars. We not only use to fuel any work done by the body, but to replenish the energy loss through work.
  2. Boost of energy can come from adrenaline that are secreted from adrenal glands.
  3. Water can not only hydrated our bodies, but also regulate the body temperature, cooling it, to prevent body from
  4. Oxygen is one of the other sources of energy. Exercises like from Tai Chi (Taiji) or yoga stressed the importance of breathing, whether the body is moving or at rest (eg meditation), because strength and energy can be gained through breathing in the air.
All of these energies (from different sources) are distributed or circulated throughout the body, by our blood cells.

So food, water, air, adrenaline, etc, are sources of energy that the body derived from. These energies don't just come out of nothing.

The stars, including our sun, produced energy in the forms of light and heat, through fusing lighter elements (like hydrogen) into heavier elements (like helium).

All the electrical devices that we take for granted, are powered by electricity, but where do electricity come from. Electricity has to be made. With battery powered device, one of the most basic is using chemical reaction of acid and two different plates. But other sources come from solar power (hence from sunlight), from coal (burning of coals), from turbine-powered machine (from wind or water current). The combination of using electricity and something, eg antenna, to produce electromagnetic fields, would require to transmit or receive signals.

What am I getting at, is that I think most energy, required some sort of physical masses, to produce energy. Energy cannot come from nothing.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
You are correct to a point...

What you've seemed to left out, is the part that energy has to come from some sorts of MATTERS or PARTICLES.


.
left nothing out....energy can be transformed

Spirit first.....as Creator....
 

gnostic

The Lost One
left nothing out....energy can be transformed

But energy transformation would still require a physical source, whether that source be as large as a star, or as small as elementary particle (eg quarks, electrons, photon, Higg boson, etc).

There is no evidence to support the existence of spirit, and if spirit is incorporeal than incorporeal cannot in any effect changes to corporeal.

Energy is not incorporeal, because mass can effect energy, and energy can effect mass.

The whole idea of a Creator or Spirit is nothing more than your personal, and quite clearly biased faith.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
But energy transformation would still require a physical source, whether that source be as large as a star, or as small as elementary particle (eg quarks, electrons, photon, Higg boson, etc).

There is no evidence to support the existence of spirit, and if spirit is incorporeal than incorporeal cannot in any effect changes to corporeal.

Energy is not incorporeal, because mass can effect energy, and energy can effect mass.

The whole idea of a Creator or Spirit is nothing more than your personal, and quite clearly biased faith.
crushed into nothing....so to speak....
the singularity was not matter
 

Reflex

Active Member
There is no evidence to support the existence of spirit, and if spirit is incorporeal than incorporeal cannot in any effect changes to corporeal.
How long would the material universe last without it incorporeal underpinnings, what scientists call virtual particles?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
How does mass affecting energy and energy affecting mass mean the energy is not incorporeal?
That just is, energy is not incorporeal.

Without mass there can be no energy. It is mass that produce energy.

And according to every known belief systems, spirits have no masses, therefore spirits cannot produce energy.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
How long would the material universe last without it incorporeal underpinnings, what scientists call virtual particles?
What make you think that virtual particles are incorporeal?

Wikipedia on Virtual Particle said:
Virtual particles do not necessarily carry the same mass as the corresponding real particle, although they always conserve energy and momentum.

Not having the same mass as normal particles, doesn't mean that virtual particles "have no masses".
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
That just is, energy is not incorporeal.

Without mass there can be no energy. It is mass that produce energy.

And according to every known belief systems, spirits have no masses, therefore spirits cannot produce energy.
Incorporeal just means not having a material form or substance....energy per se is not material...how about EM energy...what is not incorporeal about that...particularly in the zpe frequency wavelength beyond Planck length?

So you are wrong...there is energy without mass....zpe....have you not heard of the Casimir Experiment...

And to update you...spirit does not produce energy....spirit is energy.....have you not heard of the concept of spiritual energy? You obviously have limited reading wrt spiritual matters...
 

gnostic

The Lost One
crushed into nothing....so to speak....
the singularity was not matter
You really don't know what you are talking about.

A black hole (or stellar singularity) isn't "nothing", thief.

All objects that entered the black hole's event horizon, will later eventually become part of the dead star. The dead star is still there, but the matter or density is so great, and the gravity is so crushing that all objects are transformed.

If the singularity was "nothing", there would be no gravity.

You are completely misunderstanding singularity.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Incorporeal just means not having a material form or substance....energy per se is not material...how about EM energy...what is not incorporeal about that...particularly in the zpe frequency wavelength beyond Planck length?

So you are wrong...there is energy without mass....zpe....have you not heard of the Casimir Experiment...

And to update you...spirit does not produce energy....spirit is energy.....have you not heard of the concept of spiritual energy? You obviously have limited reading wrt spiritual matters...
I am saying that energy require particles or matters to produce energy. You could say that matters or particles are the CAUSE of energy.

The energy in order to produce LIGHT for instance, you may light a fire (which is combustion of fuel and oxygen), switch on light bulb (which require electricity), or the Sun may provide source for electricity, using solar-power device.

TV, radio, mobile phone, bluetooth devices and wi-fi network, all require specific radio waves in EM spectrum. All of them have antenna, to pick up signals from radio waves (hence receiver). But they need some sort of transmitters to turn signals (voice, audio, video, data) into radio waves before transmitting, again require transmitting antenna.

It doesn't matter what parts of the EM spectrum that you look at, EM don't exist without some of matters to produce those waves.

As to Casimir Experiment. How do you think they have produce the energy to get this (Casimir) effect?

The experiment required two plates placed in a vacuum. Would the experiments work without those plates?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I am saying that energy require particles or matters to produce energy. You could say that matters or particles are the CAUSE of energy.

The energy in order to produce LIGHT for instance, you may light a fire (which is combustion of fuel and oxygen), switch on light bulb (which require electricity), or the Sun may provide source for electricity, using solar-power device.

TV, radio, mobile phone, bluetooth devices and wi-fi network, all require specific radio waves in EM spectrum. All of them have antenna, to pick up signals from radio waves (hence receiver). But they need some sort of transmitters to turn signals (voice, audio, video, data) into radio waves before transmitting, again require transmitting antenna.

It doesn't matter what parts of the EM spectrum that you look at, EM don't exist without some of matters to produce those waves.

As to Casimir Experiment. How do you think they have produce the energy to get this (Casimir) effect?

The experiment required two plates placed in a vacuum. Would the experiments work without those plates?
Nonsense nonsense and more nonsense....

Matter particles are made of energy....when particles and antiparticles come together....they convert to energy according to E = MC^2.....for example in the case of electrons and positrons...the resultant energy is at he wavelength of gamma rays.... When the CERN smash particles together in the LHC..they convert to energy before the additional energy that arises in the zpe allows new exotic particles to come into being as the resonance changes in the zpe.

The space in which particles exist is the zpe...aka quantum vacuum...the virtual particles that bubble up from and return of the zpe in subatomic space are likewise formed in and of the zpe...

Haha....the plates used in the Casimir Experiment is the scientific proof that the vacuum, which prior to this experiment was thought to be a real vacuum, is not actually a real vacuum but is full of zpe...the plates and associated stuff have no other significance except to do that...


The energy that produces the Casimir Effect is vacuum zpe..no matter is involved......zpe is omnipresent through the universe in macro and micro space.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
You really don't know what you are talking about.

A black hole (or stellar singularity) isn't "nothing", thief.

All objects that entered the black hole's event horizon, will later eventually become part of the dead star. The dead star is still there, but the matter or density is so great, and the gravity is so crushing that all objects are transformed.

If the singularity was "nothing", there would be no gravity.

You are completely misunderstanding singularity.
if the gravity of a singularity prevents the escape of light....
that initial 'point' was something else?
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
There is no evidence to support the existence of spirit, and if spirit is incorporeal than incorporeal cannot in any effect changes to corporeal.

Light = electromagnetic energy affects all atoms, right? What then if "light" defines a spirit?
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
All objects that entered the black hole's event horizon, will later eventually become part of the dead star. The dead star is still there, but the matter or density is so great, and the gravity is so crushing that all objects are transformed.

If the singularity was "nothing", there would be no gravity.

You are completely misunderstanding singularity.

Generally I agree on the description of what is going on.

But IMO everyone who are speaking of "singularities" are misunderstanding something. "Black holes" in galaxies are just the electromagnetic poles into which everything disappears into the galactic center from where it all is re-formatted to new stars and everything else.

That is: There is no "gravity" at play as we understand this. It is a fluent circuit of formation with an ingoing and outgoing motion which is electromagnetically governed. The magnetic poles in galaxies describe the electric current and the perpendicular magnetic field constitutes the galactic disc.
 
Top