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Eve more guilty than Adam

tarekabdo12

Active Member
Here's the story from the Quran, it says that both were wrongful and that God forgave them after they showed penitence:

007.013 (God) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
007.014 He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."
007.015 (God) said: "Be thou among those who have respite."
007.016 He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
007.017 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
007.018 (God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee-- Hell will I fill with you all.
007.019 "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."
007.020 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live forever."
007.021 And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
007.022 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
007.023 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
007.024 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood-- for a time."
007.025 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."
007.026 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, - that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!
007.027 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.
007.028 When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "God commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, God never commands what is shameful: Do ye say of God what ye know not?"
007.029 Say: "My Lord hath commanded justice; and that ye set your whole selves (to Him) at every time and place of prayer, and call upon Him, making your devotion sincere as in His sight: such as He created you in the beginning, so shall ye return."
007.030 Some He hath guided: Others have (by their choice) deserved the loss of their way; in that they took the evil ones, in preference to God, for their friends and protectors, and think that they receive guidance.
007.031 O Children of Adam! wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer: eat and drink: But waste not by excess, for God loveth not the wasters.
007.032 Say: Who hath forbidden the beautiful (gifts) of God, which He hath produced for His servants, and the things, clean and pure, (which He hath provided) for sustenance? Say: They are, in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) purely for them on the Day of Judgement. Thus do We explain the signs in detail for those who understand.
007.033 Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to God, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about God of which ye have no knowledge.
007.034 To every people is a term appointed: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation).
007.035 O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you messengers from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you-- those who are righteous and mend (their lives) -- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.
007.036 But those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance,- they are companions of the Fire, to dwell therein (forever).
007.037 Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against God or rejects His Signs? For such, their portion appointed must reach them from the Book (of Decrees): until, when our messengers (of death) arrive and take their souls, they say: "Where are the things that ye used to invoke besides God?" They will reply, "They have left us in the lurch," And they will bear witness against themselves, that they had rejected God.

http://www.jannah.org/qurantrans/quran7.html




 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Clearly they did nothing wrong, and instead did something that is conceivably very okay. But what we are dealing with here, which ought to be clear to anyone who reads the material, is they disobeyed a semi-God. They disobeyed a creator who, unlike Genesis 1, doesn't see all of Creation as Good. Again, nowhere in Gen. 1 is death mentioned. Not even hinted at.

This semi-God has set things up as, 'you cannot disobey me, for if you do, punishment is my version of justice.' In many ways, it doesn't matter what the command was, the point of the story is, you cannot disobey this creator, for if you do the wages of sin are death.

This creator is not The Creator, and the story, I think makes that fairly clear. How anyone would miss that given the material made available to all of us, is beyond me. Yet, here we are for umpteenth thousand time pretending like LORD God is worthy of worship and obedience.

For what? Only Satan knows.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
Considering it was a command coming from their creator and a contradiction coming from some stranger says quite a lot IMO. We don't know the exact amount of time that went by before they sinned, but it's safe to say they established a relationship with God. They had no dealings with the snake other than it telling them God was a liar and they out of their own free will chose to believe it. It's not the fact they didn't need any foresight. They didn't want any. Before they sinned, God was the dictator of what was right and wrong and by sinning, they decided they wanted take that right from God and be their own gods. Afterwards yhey didn't even attempt to repent. Instead, Adam tried to blame God as many people do today. That in itself tells me it was a conscience intention act of disobedience.

This would make complete sense IF they had knowledge of good and evil before they disobeyed.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
This was an experience that God was giving it to Adam and Eve before they went to the earth for the job they were designed for(to choose between good and bad and to build the earth). They had to know that if they listen to the Satan and follow his way and disobey God's orders they'd lose a lot.
I agree.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
This was an experience that God was giving it to Adam and Eve before they went to the earth for the job they were designed for(to choose between good and bad and to build the earth). They had to know that if they listen to the Satan and follow his way and disobey God's orders they'd lose a lot.

Wait what? If they weren't on earth before they got the commandment, where were they? I mean he didn't take dirt from Heaven and formed Adam so where else could he have gotten it?
Perhaps tarekabdo is referring to "earth" as the world outside of the Garden of Eden. That's how I interpreted his comment.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Clearly they did nothing wrong, and instead did something that is conceivably very okay. But what we are dealing with here, which ought to be clear to anyone who reads the material, is they disobeyed a semi-God. They disobeyed a creator who, unlike Genesis 1, doesn't see all of Creation as Good. Again, nowhere in Gen. 1 is death mentioned. Not even hinted at.
This is a very good point and a valid argument for the concept of the Demiurge.
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Adam and Eve story is poetry

It is God's story to us about His creation. One has the option of believing it or not.

I believe it because it fits all of what he has done as described in the bible.

Apart from that, there is nothing but myths of Greek mythology.

Of which has no sound bases.

Blessings, AJ
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
007.020 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live forever." >>>tarekabdo12

That is similar to the story in the bible.

You see, Satan or the devil, or the serpent, wasn't lying but telling the truth, doesn't matter because the issue is that if Adam and Eve had the opportunity to eat of the tree of life they should live forever after they has already eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The plot for the conditions of humanity had to be set up by written statement. Sort of like in the movies where Yul Brynner said "So it is said, so let it be written".

The story is the written statement cirtifying the conditions in which the resultants of Gods creation rested in.

It is not the disobedience of Adam or Eve, but the resultant of mankind having the ability to reason as gods.
That alone is the story given so as even a child could understand who God is and what He expects of all of us.

The expectation is the fight against the desires of the flesh as portrayed by Eve when she looked/lusted after the fruit (Knowledge) of the tree.

Otherwise termed disobedience.

Contrast that with Jesus' total and perfect obedience to the will of God.

The following verse confirms that: Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

What you have there is two distinct Adams.

The 1st Adam in the story in Genesis is the created flesh Adam by which death came.
The 2nd Adam, is the spiritual Adam with life and not death, as the other tree by which all of us can now reach and eat and live forever! Not in the flesh but eternal forever.

Trying to understand the story with human analogies is cheer speculation.

The story has to fit the goals of God as seen through the eyes of God as told.

Being human, we lack spiritual understanding thus causing us to making up whatever our minds limitations can conjure up.

To understand God's view of it all, one must be given heart and soul to His love for us, making Him our God rather than this world.

It is a puzzle indeed, but not without hope. For God gives us understanding when we seek Him.

Blessings, AJ
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
i find the Quran very difficult to read...the thoughts come across as incoherent to me. Is that the arabic language perhaps?
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
i find the Quran very difficult to read...the thoughts come across as incoherent to me. Is that the arabic language perhaps?

One would have to be versed in the bible in order to see the same things in the Quran worded differently.

The beautiful thing about Jesus is that regardless of what anyone believes, He died for us all.

Be it, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew or non believer.

That is the great Mystery foreign to human understanding.

The great love of God.

Who can understand it! Save one who is born of Him.

Blessings, AJ
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
One would have to be versed in the bible in order to see the same things in the Quran worded differently.

The beautiful thing about Jesus is that regardless of what anyone believes, He died for us all.

Be it, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew or non believer.

That is the great Mystery foreign to human understanding.

The great love of God.

Who can understand it! Save one who is born of Him.

Blessings, AJ

This is borderline proseytizing.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
One would have to be versed in the bible in order to see the same things in the Quran worded differently.

The beautiful thing about Jesus is that regardless of what anyone believes, He died for us all.

Be it, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew or non believer.

That is the great Mystery foreign to human understanding.

The great love of God.

Who can understand it! Save one who is born of Him.

Blessings, AJ

If you can´t understand someone dying for people of a different religion than you, don´t make the wrong assumption than such doing would be a mystery for anyone´s humanity but yourself.
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If you can´t understand someone dying for people of a different religion than you, don´t make the wrong assumption than such doing would be a mystery for anyone´s humanity but yourself.

Are you addressing me or someone else? I know what the mystery is, therefore, I see Jesus paying the price for all religious beliefs and for unbelievers too.

I can see the mystery hidden in the word love that the mere mind can not comprehend, for the mind knows only what the flesh experience is, allotting that love can hate, despise, reject or do such things to the disobedient and favor only obedient.

But God is none of those, for God's love favors no one but His own Son.

If we be in the Son, then we are in God's favor, as He loves His own Son.

Blessings, AJ
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Are you addressing me or someone else? I know what the mystery is, therefore, I see Jesus paying the price for all religious beliefs and for unbelievers too.

I can see the mystery hidden in the word love that the mere mind can not comprehend, for the mind knows only what the flesh experience is, allotting that love can hate, despise, reject or do such things to the disobedient and favor only obedient.

But God is none of those, for God's love favors no one but His own Son.

If we be in the Son, then we are in God's favor, as He loves His own Son.

Blessings, AJ

Well, just said that there are a lot of great (and anonymous) people that have sacrificed themslelves for others in history. Including others that may not share the religion or ideal of this sacrificed person.

While I see biblical Jesus as a great role model of inspiring values, there are others that equal him for what I´ve read.

Never seen him asking for worship or prayer in the bible neither. I agree the Jesus figure forgave all, even those that were shouting and booing him when he went to the cross. If his word has any meaning, then they surely will enjoy heaven, after all, those who err "don´t know what they are doing" hence, shouldn´t be liable to eternal pain. He knew that. (providing he existed and was in the way the bible tries to explain)
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well, just said that there are a lot of great (and anonymous) people that have sacrificed themslelves for others in history. Including others that may not share the religion or ideal of this sacrificed person.

While I see biblical Jesus as a great role model of inspiring values, there are others that equal him for what I´ve read.

Never seen him asking for worship or prayer in the bible neither. I agree the Jesus figure forgave all, even those that were shouting and booing him when he went to the cross. If his word has any meaning, then they surely will enjoy heaven, after all, those who err "don´t know what they are doing" hence, shouldn´t be liable to eternal pain. He knew that. (providing he existed and was in the way the bible tries to explain)

Very well so, but none had a distinct mission as to rescue the whole of humanity.

The distinction is that Jesus "as God" via the sacrifice was able to reconcile the whole of mankind back to God, where as none other person in the history of mankind did.

It is God's work in the person of Jesus as a Son, signifying, the Godhead bodily, where no other man was or is.

One has to see the redeeming factor in Jesus, otherwise, there is no redemption any other way.

Jesus is the tree of life that was withheld from both Adam and Eve for the experience of suffering and pain through tribulation as a way to gain knowledge of what is good and evil.

But did not leave us there, for at the time appointed in the term of human history, Jesus was born, and His mission, as God, was to reconcile the world back to God.

When you die, regardless of belief, you will see Jesus as God, for there is only but one God.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Reach out and eat of the tree of life! Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Now, we all know the reference is not to His physical body, but to the knowledge of Him who God has sent as the tree of life.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus not God?

You decide.

Blessings, AJ
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Depends. Vishnu did it more than once if I am not mistaken, saved humanity AND gods alike.

There is only one saving, and that is from eternal annihilation.

God has over time saved His people Israel many a time, but not as like Jesus.

The saving of Israel was instrumental in bring about the offering of Jesus.

A good picture is of Cain and Abel. The bible states that Cain offered the first fruits of the land, while Abel offered the first fruit of his heard.

Jesus, a picture of Cain offered up the first fruit (Israel) God's chosen, while Israel offered up the first fruit of God's chosen Son.

Notice both Cain's and Jesus' are of the fruit of the land, the crop while Israel and Abel both offered a sacrificial lamb? Meaning, the shedding of blood.

You see, it all fits into God's wonderful works in the salvation of mankind.

Salvation of mankind is not a physical event, but a spiritual event.

Blessings, AJ
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
There is only one saving, and that is from eternal annihilation.
Salvation of mankind is not a physical event, but a spiritual event.
Blessings, AJ

If salvation is not a physical event, then how do you explain that great multitude of people coming out of the great tribulation of Rev 7v14 ?

Aren't the living sheep-like people of Matthew 25vs31,32 alive at that time?
They can remain alive and keep on living right into the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.

Only those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6; 10vs26,27; Psalm 92v7
are annihilated or destroyed forever.
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If salvation is not a physical event, then how do you explain that great multitude of people coming out of the great tribulation of Rev 7v14 ?

Aren't the living sheep-like people of Matthew 25vs31,32 alive at that time?
They can remain alive and keep on living right into the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.

Only those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6; 10vs26,27; Psalm 92v7
are annihilated or destroyed forever.

First of all, the book of revelation is about Jesus period.
Ref: Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Jesus at the Last Supper said: Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

What must shortly come to pass is Jesus at war with the worlds forces as depicted in the book of revelation, such that only in the power of God could Jesus overcome them all.
The book of Revelation is a picture of that war.
Ref:Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Let's take the first one "behold a white horse" is a symbol for the power and might of God.
"him had a bow" is Jesus coming with the ten commandments as having conquered them and in full authority over them.

"a crown was given unto him:" Jesus came as a servant subjected under the rule of authorities, the high priests and the Roman government.

No crown before the battle, but one after the battle won is Jesus rightly and correctely labeled "King of the Jews".

He then won over the forces of the world which kept us in bonds to the death penalty.

Jesus as a servant became King to: Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus already took care of all that in the spiritual realm for us as a new creation.
What is left is our own creation of what we do with it.

Sadly, we created our own national and international problems which might very well bring about the conditions mentioned in the book of Revelation.

But the thousand year reign is of Christ. One thousand years is as one day to God.

God in Jesus in one day recreated the new heavens and the new earth.

You will not see it in the physical, for it is all spiritual. we still die.

Jesus comes to us in spirit and we shall live on and not die. Again, don't look at a physical not dying, for it is appointed once for man to die.

but look at the spiritual side of it, for when we are "born again" we are not born again of the flesh, but of the spirit.

If you have Jesus know and know Him as your God and Savior, what is there to fear?

Jesus' Armageddon was on the way to and at the cross as should have been ours.

Blessings, AJ
 
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