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Evidence for an ancient earth

gnostic

The Lost One
Are you familiar with the uniformitarian assumptions paradox? You are assuming the rate is constant when the rate could be leftover aftershocks from catastrophe.
I know that Indian tectonic plate wasn't pushing into Eurasian plate as that 30 million years ago at the same rate 4500 years ago, or that of 4500 years ago at the sample rate as today.

But the Himalayas certainly didn't grow 8000 metres in 4500 years ago.

What you are claiming is not only scientific impossible, you are completely deluded.


You would be correct unless the biblical God indeed reveals evidence to those open to the evidence.

Sorry, but all God's revelations in the bible don't reveal any evidence, PERIOD.

They all required faith to accept any belief in revelation.

Religions required faiths, not evidences, not fact, not science.

Believing in a serpent in Genesis or donkey in Numbers, can talk in human voices or human language, required blind faith.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
There is nothing in the universe that implies a designer?!

Let's start with:

*Natural law
*Gravity at levels that doesn't cause all to implode or explode
*Math
*Logic
I agreed that maths and logic were Designed...but "designed" by humans.

As polymath257, maths and logic are man-made tools, and with mathematics, it is a language using numbers and equations, which were mean to represent the "real world".

You keep stating "time" are of human-construct, well so are logics and mathematics.

Natural law is an explanation based on human observations of natural phenomena, not supernatural phenomena.

Naturalism is using observation of nature, explaining without resorting to using gods, spirits or any other superstitions.

The belief in creation by God has nothing to do with natural law; it about filling the gap of their ignorance, by using "God did it"; that's not natural law, it is called superstition, and what I would call "wishful thinking".

The "supernatural" as in miracles, creationism, divine intervention, magic, and fables (like that of Genesis' talking serpent or Numbers' donkey).

The whole business of "creating" light from nothing but a few spoken words by God - "Let there be light" is more like witches' incantations of magic spells.

And the whole magic words creating something is not even original idea, because before Genesis was ever written down in the mid-1st millennium BCE, Egyptian gods like Re (Ra), Thoth, Ptah and Isis were thought to create with "thoughts" and "words".

The pyramids of 5th and 6th dynasties at the necropolis of Saqqara, containing utterances or spells inscribed with hieroglyphs on tombs' walls. These spells were to assist the dead rulers with passing judgements and aboard Re's solar boat or entered the Field of Reeds, the Egyptian versions of Christian heaven or the Greek Elysian Fields.

Jesus' raising of Lazarus (John 11) with some spoken words, is also not original. In one version, Isis used spell to resurrect her infant Horus, after he as stung by scorpion, but in another version it was Thoth performing the spell.

There is nothing special or unique about the bible, when it comes to magic and miracles, because other older civilisations have similar myths as that of Genesis or the gospels.
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
How do any of these imply a designer?

Math and logic are *languages* we have created to help us understand things.

Natural laws, by their very nature, cannot be caused (causality is a product of natural laws). Gravity is one natural law.

Nothing in this suggests anything outside of the physical universe.

Of course an inductively observed law follows causation. I've been told since I was a kid that matter and energy may be neither created or destroyed in sum.

So--matter and energy are here but the law says they were never made to be here = Created.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I know that Indian tectonic plate wasn't pushing into Eurasian plate as that 30 million years ago at the same rate 4500 years ago, or that of 4500 years ago at the sample rate as today.

But the Himalayas certainly didn't grow 8000 metres in 4500 years ago.

What you are claiming is not only scientific impossible, you are completely deluded.




Sorry, but all God's revelations in the bible don't reveal any evidence, PERIOD.

They all required faith to accept any belief in revelation.

Religions required faiths, not evidences, not fact, not science.

Believing in a serpent in Genesis or donkey in Numbers, can talk in human voices or human language, required blind faith.

I have a dollar that says you realize even before I tell you that since you know I don't believe the Flood was only 4,500 years ago that you have a straw man argument there.

I have two dollars that says you've forgotten that almost every scientist who has said, "No way something like X could have happened" has been humbled in their lifetime or by the smarter ones who were born later.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I agreed that maths and logic were Designed...but "designed" by humans.

As polymath257, maths and logic are man-made tools, and with mathematics, it is a language using numbers and equations, which were mean to represent the "real world".

You keep stating "time" are of human-construct, well so are logics and mathematics.

Natural law is an explanation based on human observations of natural phenomena, not supernatural phenomena.

Naturalism is using observation of nature, explaining without resorting to using gods, spirits or any other superstitions.

The belief in creation by God has nothing to do with natural law; it about filling the gap of their ignorance, by using "God did it"; that's not natural law, it is called superstition, and what I would call "wishful thinking".

The "supernatural" as in miracles, creationism, divine intervention, magic, and fables (like that of Genesis' talking serpent or Numbers' donkey).

The whole business of "creating" light from nothing but a few spoken words by God - "Let there be light" is more like witches' incantations of magic spells.

And the whole magic words creating something is not even original idea, because before Genesis was ever written down in the mid-1st millennium BCE, Egyptian gods like Re (Ra), Thoth, Ptah and Isis were thought to create with "thoughts" and "words".

The pyramids of 5th and 6th dynasties at the necropolis of Saqqara, containing utterances or spells inscribed with hieroglyphs on tombs' walls. These spells were to assist the dead rulers with passing judgements and aboard Re's solar boat or entered the Field of Reeds, the Egyptian versions of Christian heaven or the Greek Elysian Fields.

Jesus' raising of Lazarus (John 11) with some spoken words, is also not original. In one version, Isis used spell to resurrect her infant Horus, after he as stung by scorpion, but in another version it was Thoth performing the spell.

There is nothing special or unique about the bible, when it comes to magic and miracles, because other older civilisations have similar myths as that of Genesis or the gospels.

My belief in Creation is rooted in logic, and my understanding your tired canard that "the universe is eternal" defies conservation of matter and energy (and common sense and Occam's razor) as well as invokes problems of infinite regression.

Oh, and also, the way in which skeptics rage and rage and won't even allow for the possibility of Creation is definitely proof, too--that what the Bible says about the nature of skeptics is always proved correct.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I hope gnostic doesn't mind but I can't resist commenting on this.

"the universe is eternal" defies conservation of matter and energy
False, as it's a reflection of it as there's no need to assume that it was any lesser or greater at any point along the way.

and common sense
Not really-- belief in an unseen deity (or is it "deities"?) takes a lot more unsubstantiated faith than thinking that all may go back into infinity.

and Occam's razor
Again, false, as the concept if "infinity" is actually very simple to imagine and understand.

as well as invokes problems of infinite regression.
There is no problem with that as it's actually quite easy to understand "infinity", plus it is used in numerous mathematical equations, so there definitely is logic that is intrinsic with it. So, how does your concept of a creator-deity work out mathematically if it's so logical?

Oh, and also, the way in which skeptics rage and rage and won't even allow for the possibility of Creation is definitely proof,
Most "skeptics" are not atheists but are agnostics. Those of us in the latter category do not jump to conclusions that there is or is not a deity or deities like most theists do. We rely on objectively-derived evidence, but theists don't, plus the Bible, the Qur'an, the Upanishads, etc. are not objective sources.

Thus my position is that whatever caused this universe/multiverse I'll call "God" and pretty much just leave it at that-- too many questions, not enough answers.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Of course an inductively observed law follows causation. I've been told since I was a kid that matter and energy may be neither created or destroyed in sum.

So--matter and energy are here but the law says they were never made to be here = Created.

Your understanding of conservation laws is faulty. The actual conservation law says that the total amount of energy (with mass included via relativity) is the same at any two times. So, if that total has a value E at one time, then it will have the same value, E, at any other time.

So, whenever there was time, there was energy (including mass).

How you get they were created out of that, I have no idea.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Are you familiar with the uniformitarian assumptions paradox? You are assuming the rate is constant when the rate could be leftover aftershocks from catastrophe.

If there was a large meteor strike millions of years ago, did the plates uniformly push at the same rates that year as they did last year?

Even plate theory requires some assumptions and has some problems inherent within.

You misunderstand the uniformitarian hypothesis.

It is NOT that all rates have been constant. Instead, it is that the same fundamental laws operated in the past as now. So, conservation of mass and energy was just as true in the past as it is now. The law of gravity is the same now as in the past. The same laws of chemistry work in the past as now.

This is NOT to say that the *conditions* were the same in the past. In fact, we know from the evidence that they have changed over time. But the same *basic* laws were at work then as they are now.

Also, such an assumption is required to even discuss properties of the past in any reasonable way.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I have a dollar that says you realize even before I tell you that since you know I don't believe the Flood was only 4,500 years ago that you have a straw man argument there.
It isn't a straw man argument, because it is possible to calculate the probable date of the Flood, with the numbers (years) provided by the Old Testament, based on the Masoretic Text.

If I remember correctly (so correct me if I am wrong), I seemed to recall you've claimed to be Jew, but you clearly believe in Jesus.

So are you a Messianic Jew?

If you are a Messianic Jew, is it not correct that you accept the Masoretic Text over the Septuagint, regarding to the Old Testament? I don't know much about the Messianic Jews, don't know about about their practices, customs and which particular bible they follow.

If you are not a Messianic Jew, then what church do you belong to, and what translation of the bible your church you follow?

I am asking these questions, because the Septuagint give different date to the Flood than the MT, by about 1000 years.

And don't think you follow the Samaritan Torah.

Whether you follow the Masoretic Text, Septuagint or the Samaritan Torah, with each one one them, it is possible to predict or estimate the date of Flood, through careful reading of whichever copy of the bible you have at hand, and with a basic calculator, to be able to calculate backward from the Fall of Jerusalem (1 & 2 Kings) and forward from Adam to Jacob (Genesis).

1 Kings 6:1 would give you a clue to when Moses and Israelites left Egypt and when Moses received the Ten Commandments (ie 480 years).

And in Exodus 12:40-41 would give you idea (430 years) from time of Moses leaving Israel, and when Abraham got his insight to his covenant. The MT and Septuagint differed slightly in this passage (12:40-41).

From Adam to Abraham's it is possible to determine at least 4 different dates as to when the Flood began.

4 different versions because of the Masoretic Text (1656 AM), Samaritan Torah (1307 AM), and two versions of the Septuagint. There is a 14-year differences between the Septuagint manuscripts (Codex Alexandrinus with 2262 AM, and Codex Vaticanus, 2242 AM).

CV (Codex Vaticanus) calculated Methuselah surviving the Flood by 14 years. How can Methuselah survive the Flood without ever boarding the Ark?

And these 3 different texts, exhibited different times between Flood and birth of Abraham. According to the Masoretic Text, only 292 years has passed when Abraham was born. Over a thousand years for the Septuagint, and 942 years between Flood and Abraham.

When I posted my website online - Dark Mirrors of Heaven - I did such calculations of timelines on both Genesis (Timeline of the Patriarchs) and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. I have actually done a spreadsheet containing the generations of Genesis patriarchs of not only Septuagint, Masoretic Text and Samaritan Torah, but also the Syrian Pesh1tta and Latin Vulgate bible.

The MT and Vulgate actually matched in the Genesis.

Whether you accept or don't accept 4340 years (MT calculations) the timeline to the Flood is calculate-able. I wrote "4500 years" to round it off, but more precisely it is 4340 years ago.

And was using 4500 years for my calculation of the height of Mount Everest was, back then. 18 metres are not much different as from today's height.

If you think Everest and Himalayas grew at rate of 100s of metres each year, then you are the one not thinking logically at all.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
My belief in Creation is rooted in logic, and my understanding your tired canard that "the universe is eternal" defies conservation of matter and energy (and common sense and Occam's razor) as well as invokes problems of infinite regression.

No, it does not defy the conservation of mass and energy. If anything, a creation event for those is what would violate that law.

Common sense tends to be a very poor indicator for truth when dealing with the big questions. Humans are decent at intuition on scales appropriate for humans, but are very poor when more extreme conditions occur.

Infinite regression isn't an issue logically. It is perfectly consistent if understood properly.

Oh, and also, the way in which skeptics rage and rage and won't even allow for the possibility of Creation is definitely proof, too--that what the Bible says about the nature of skeptics is always proved correct.

A possibility of creation? Sure, no problem?

How about creation by an uneducated high school student in a multi-dimensional race of beings that creates universes as pieces of art? Is that a possibility? I would say it is, but that it is highly unlikely. It is, however, far more likely than your Biblical deity.
 

Viraja

Jaya Jagannatha!
Hello,

Is this thread about scientific evidence for the presence of another earth, just like our earth in this universe, perhaps filled with people, or is it about the age of our earth being 4 billion years?

The OP speaks of many scientific terms but going by the heading I am unclear of the message...

The reason I am asking is because co-incidentally, about 6 months ago, I dreamt of visiting/being in an altogether new earth that is FAR away in a different galaxy from our earth...

Not that just because I dreamt (silly me!) there should be a new earth, but it elicits my curiosity nevertheless...

As some messages in this thread seem to suggest that this thread could be about a new earth, I am inclined to ask...

Sorry if I sound dumb.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I hope gnostic doesn't mind but I can't resist commenting on this.
No, I don't mind at all...by all mean, go ahead.

Besides, my fingers could use some rest. :D


My belief in Creation is rooted in logic, and my understanding your tired canard that "the universe is eternal" defies conservation of matter and energy (and common sense and Occam's razor) as well as invokes problems of infinite regression.

Now, who is doing the straw man argument.

You are repeating the same stupid straw man, over and over again.

My acceptance stop at the beginning of the Recombination epoch of the Big Bang model, because NOTHING BEFORE the Recombination epoch is "observable".

The universe is only became "observable" during the Recombination epoch. This is when electrons bonded with ionised hydrogen and helium atoms for the first time, causing the universe to become "transparent" and "observable". The bonding of electrons to atoms with no electrons, resulted in atoms becoming electrically neutral and stable atoms.

So in plain English and basic chemistry,
  1. one electron and one proton equal to one stable hydrogen atom,
  2. and two electrons and two protons equal to one stable helium atom.
Because the atoms became stable and neutral, photons were free to travel, instead of being reabsorbed by the ionised atoms, when the universe before the Recombination epoch, was in plasma state.

These photons are the earliest observable light (photons) detectable by radio telescopes, and special-equipped space telescopes (eg COBE, WMAP and the Planck spacecraft) that can monitor the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR).

Before the Recombination epoch, the universe was opaque, a veil preventing us viewing the older universe, very much like the Event Horizon.

You do understand what the "Event Horizon" is, don't you?

The event horizon prevent outside observer from viewing beyond the line.

If you can't see beyond the Recombination epoch, then how could you definitively know that the universe is eternal, or the oscillating universe model, or that the multiverse are true?

The event horizon of before Recombination epoch act as barriers preventing any cosmologists to provide conclusive evidences of what the universe was like before the CMBR.

Until you can pierce beyond the Recombination epoch, your claim of infinite or eternal universe is just baseless speculation.

I have not accept all of the Big Bang model because something is blacking our view, so we are not able to determine if the older BB epochs are true.

And it is Thame with eternal universe and multiverse. If it isn't observable, detectable and measurable, then it is either theoretical, hypothetical or just plain pseudoscience.

And Creationism and Intelligent Design fall under the trashcan labeled as "pseudoscience", because it is nothing more than wishful superstitions.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Is this thread about scientific evidence for the presence of another earth, just like our earth in this universe, perhaps filled with people, or is it about the age of our earth being 4 billion years?

The OP speaks of many scientific terms but going by the heading I am unclear of the message...

Welcome, Viraja.

You need not apologise for asking questions.

Actually, asking questions is the wisest thing to do do, if you don't know the answers.

The problem is when people don't know, but they start making things up, as if they considered their views to be fact, when they really don't know.

As to your questions regarding to the thread, on behalf of everyone here, we are sorry for confusing you.

Threads on debate forums, members have the tendencies to go off-topic.

You will just have to bear with it, because arguments will often change direction, especially when thread like this has almost a thousand replies.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
It isn't a straw man argument, because it is possible to calculate the probable date of the Flood, with the numbers (years) provided by the Old Testament, based on the Masoretic Text.

If I remember correctly (so correct me if I am wrong), I seemed to recall you've claimed to be Jew, but you clearly believe in Jesus.

So are you a Messianic Jew?

If you are a Messianic Jew, is it not correct that you accept the Masoretic Text over the Septuagint, regarding to the Old Testament? I don't know much about the Messianic Jews, don't know about about their practices, customs and which particular bible they follow.

If you are not a Messianic Jew, then what church do you belong to, and what translation of the bible your church you follow?

I am asking these questions, because the Septuagint give different date to the Flood than the MT, by about 1000 years.

And don't think you follow the Samaritan Torah.

Whether you follow the Masoretic Text, Septuagint or the Samaritan Torah, with each one one them, it is possible to predict or estimate the date of Flood, through careful reading of whichever copy of the bible you have at hand, and with a basic calculator, to be able to calculate backward from the Fall of Jerusalem (1 & 2 Kings) and forward from Adam to Jacob (Genesis).

1 Kings 6:1 would give you a clue to when Moses and Israelites left Egypt and when Moses received the Ten Commandments (ie 480 years).

And in Exodus 12:40-41 would give you idea (430 years) from time of Moses leaving Israel, and when Abraham got his insight to his covenant. The MT and Septuagint differed slightly in this passage (12:40-41).

From Adam to Abraham's it is possible to determine at least 4 different dates as to when the Flood began.

4 different versions because of the Masoretic Text (1656 AM), Samaritan Torah (1307 AM), and two versions of the Septuagint. There is a 14-year differences between the Septuagint manuscripts (Codex Alexandrinus with 2262 AM, and Codex Vaticanus, 2242 AM).

CV (Codex Vaticanus) calculated Methuselah surviving the Flood by 14 years. How can Methuselah survive the Flood without ever boarding the Ark?

And these 3 different texts, exhibited different times between Flood and birth of Abraham. According to the Masoretic Text, only 292 years has passed when Abraham was born. Over a thousand years for the Septuagint, and 942 years between Flood and Abraham.

When I posted my website online - Dark Mirrors of Heaven - I did such calculations of timelines on both Genesis (Timeline of the Patriarchs) and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. I have actually done a spreadsheet containing the generations of Genesis patriarchs of not only Septuagint, Masoretic Text and Samaritan Torah, but also the Syrian Pesh1tta and Latin Vulgate bible.

The MT and Vulgate actually matched in the Genesis.

Whether you accept or don't accept 4340 years (MT calculations) the timeline to the Flood is calculate-able. I wrote "4500 years" to round it off, but more precisely it is 4340 years ago.

And was using 4500 years for my calculation of the height of Mount Everest was, back then. 18 metres are not much different as from today's height.

If you think Everest and Himalayas grew at rate of 100s of metres each year, then you are the one not thinking logically at all.

As a Jewish person with some Hebrew and Greek training both, I would say you are needlessly repeating yourself, since you are doing a straight linear derivation of genealogies without having addressed my comments that lineages have notable descendants who are not always one generation removed.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
No, I don't mind at all...by all mean, go ahead.

Besides, my fingers could use some rest. :D




Now, who is doing the straw man argument.

You are repeating the same stupid straw man, over and over again.

My acceptance stop at the beginning of the Recombination epoch of the Big Bang model, because NOTHING BEFORE the Recombination epoch is "observable".

The universe is only became "observable" during the Recombination epoch. This is when electrons bonded with ionised hydrogen and helium atoms for the first time, causing the universe to become "transparent" and "observable". The bonding of electrons to atoms with no electrons, resulted in atoms becoming electrically neutral and stable atoms.

So in plain English and basic chemistry,
  1. one electron and one proton equal to one stable hydrogen atom,
  2. and two electrons and two protons equal to one stable helium atom.
Because the atoms became stable and neutral, photons were free to travel, instead of being reabsorbed by the ionised atoms, when the universe before the Recombination epoch, was in plasma state.

These photons are the earliest observable light (photons) detectable by radio telescopes, and special-equipped space telescopes (eg COBE, WMAP and the Planck spacecraft) that can monitor the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR).

Before the Recombination epoch, the universe was opaque, a veil preventing us viewing the older universe, very much like the Event Horizon.

You do understand what the "Event Horizon" is, don't you?

The event horizon prevent outside observer from viewing beyond the line.

If you can't see beyond the Recombination epoch, then how could you definitively know that the universe is eternal, or the oscillating universe model, or that the multiverse are true?

The event horizon of before Recombination epoch act as barriers preventing any cosmologists to provide conclusive evidences of what the universe was like before the CMBR.

Until you can pierce beyond the Recombination epoch, your claim of infinite or eternal universe is just baseless speculation.

I have not accept all of the Big Bang model because something is blacking our view, so we are not able to determine if the older BB epochs are true.

And it is Thame with eternal universe and multiverse. If it isn't observable, detectable and measurable, then it is either theoretical, hypothetical or just plain pseudoscience.

And Creationism and Intelligent Design fall under the trashcan labeled as "pseudoscience", because it is nothing more than wishful superstitions.

All you wrote equals "we don't know how everything got here before the singularity expanded or why there was a singularity at all".

So what is more likely, that the universe with its incredible order and precision is random in origin or designed?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
All you wrote equals "we don't know how everything got here before the singularity expanded or why there was a singularity at all".

So what is more likely, that the universe with its incredible order and precision is random in origin or designed?
Three physicists in the 1920s predicted in their respective hypotheses that the universe was expanding:

  1. Alexander Friedmann, Russian theoretical physicist, in 1922
  2. Howard Percy Robertson, American physicist, in 1925-26
  3. Georges Lemaître, Belgian theoretical physicist, in 1927
All three put up papers on the expanding universe model, before it was called the "Big Bang" in 1948. All three had independently used Albert Einstein's General Theory of Relativity (1916) as framework to build the model on the expanding universe.

Robertson not only predicted this concept in 1925, but had also predicted that the "redshift" of astronomical bodies, such as the galaxies, are moving from one moving away from each other, indicated by the redshift in the spectrum and the universe expanding.

This prediction about the Robertson's redshift was later confirmed by American astronomer, Edwin Hubble in 1929, when he observed the redshift of two galaxies. This was very first evidence for the expanding universe model.

Although we have 2 physicists predicting the same model earlier than Lemaître, the Belgian priest and theoretical physicist, was the one who earned the title of the Father of the Big Bang theory.

The concept that the galaxies are moving away from each other and the universe is expanding, does indicate singularity. It does indicate the universe was smaller, denser, hotter.

All evidences showed this.

What you don't seem to grasp is that the we don't have technology today, to observe and detect the earlier epochs than the Recombination epoch.

As you know, or you should know, the Big Bang cosmology indicate the universe is about 13.798 ± 0.037 billion years, this last estimate by the Planck space program.

This Recombination epoch, which I have repeatedly brought up, it is the time when matters, the hydrogen and helium became stable matters, when it combined electrons to these originally ionised atoms. This bonding of electrons released photons, the earliest light we could detect and measure, in the form of Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation CMBR), another thing that I keep bringing up.

The best estimate age of the universe may be 13.798 billion years old, but this Recombination epoch didn't start until the universe was about 377,000 years old, and this process didn't stop until the formation of large structures, the earliest stars.

The CMBR was predicted by Ralph Alpher and Robert Herman under the leading scientist George Gamow, in 1948, but this CMBR was accidentally discovered until 1964 by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson.

NASA's WMAP and ESA's Planck space telescope have indications that the universe is still expanding, and that it is accelerating in expansion. Currently the astrophysicists think the expansion is caused by dark energy, though it has never been directly detected. But what else could cause the universe to accelerate in expansion. If the dark energy don't exist, then astronomers should see the gravity would cause the universe to contract. But the evidences point to continually expand.

It still early days, science may develop the technology to directly detect and measure dark energy and dark matters.

But did you know that since Galileo but before 1919, astronomers thought the universe comprised only of the Milky Way?

All the nearby galaxies that they could observed with the earlier telescopes (pre-1919 telescopes), they thought those blobs of the Andromeda Galaxy and Triangulum Galaxy were nebulae, not galaxies.

It wasn't until they had finished constructing the Hooker Telescope, and Edwin Hubble used it and looked through this telescope, that he discovered those nebulae were actually galaxies.

Do you understand why I keep giving you a history lesson on astronomy and astrophysics?

It showed that physical cosmology, a lot predictions were made by scientists, and it took time, years, to confirm some predictions with observable evidences, while other predictions remain hypothetical and theoretical.

We have only been able to "observe" right up to the Recombination epoch, and have not been able to see anything earlier than this, but so far the only cosmological models getting their predictions right, is the Big Bang model.

The other models (eternal universe model, oscillating universe model (sometimes called the "Big Bounce"), the various multiverse models, etc) are still in their respective hypothetical and theoretical stages.

You have not shown any evidence that the universe. You believe it is, but you haven't been able to prove it.

Like I have said, there are many predictions in the cosmology business, and really not that much confirm. The technology is still in the catching-up with concepts.

Astrophysics and cosmology is ongoing learning and discovery process. We don't know everything, and we certainly don't know if the universe is eternal or has a beginning.

I favoured -
  1. the "wait and see" approach,
  2. and the "I don't accept anything until it can be observed, detected and measured" approach.
Your approach is "I don't care if we cannot observe it, I believe what I believe to be fact". Your unjustifiable and unverifiable concept is just that, BilliardsBall, "baseless speculation" based on wishes that "your opinion is true".

Sorry, but I need more than your words, your wishes, your hubris.

And your belief in the universe being designed by Intelligent Designer or ultimate Consciousness is just more of your unsubstantiated opinion...pseudoscience.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
So what is more likely, that the universe with its incredible order and precision is random in origin or designed?
Since our universe appears to have expanded from singularity, then what the "pecking-order" at that point of expansion would largely determine the order as the expansion continued. However, if there are other universes, which most cosmologists think now is likely, the singularities would not likely to be the same, therefore their "order" would be different.

Or, to put it a different way, the "laws of physics" are likely different between universes, and they even may differ somewhat in different regions of one universe, including ours.

Ever had a m.r.i.? That machine actually defies our basic laws of physics because the inventor changed the "order"-- just don't ask me how he did it. Right now, some scientists are working on making computers that operate on quantum mechanic principles, which again would change the "order".

In my last two examples, humans changed the order, but the reality is that back 13+ billion years ago, whatever pattern emerged from the singularity, even if by chance alone, would establish what the overall order would eventually be.

Of course, this does not prove nor disprove if there's a creator-god(s).
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Since our universe appears to have expanded from singularity, then what the "pecking-order" at that point of expansion would largely determine the order as the expansion continued. However, if there are other universes, which most cosmologists think now is likely, the singularities would not likely to be the same, therefore their "order" would be different.

Or, to put it a different way, the "laws of physics" are likely different between universes, and they even may differ somewhat in different regions of one universe, including ours.

Ever had a m.r.i.? That machine actually defies our basic laws of physics because the inventor changed the "order"-- just don't ask me how he did it. Right now, some scientists are working on making computers that operate on quantum mechanic principles, which again would change the "order".

In my last two examples, humans changed the order, but the reality is that back 13+ billion years ago, whatever pattern emerged from the singularity, even if by chance alone, would establish what the overall order would eventually be.

Of course, this does not prove nor disprove if there's a creator-god(s).

Mathematically, the multiverse models are possible, but so far there are no definitive (and verifiable) evidences for this possibility.

I understand the concept, the basic, but I cannot fathom the maths involved, it's too complex for me.

Until there are (definitive evidences), I would say the multiverse models are still at theoretical stage.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
One possibility which no one talk about these days, because most physicists are focusing on the Big Bang and the multiverse cosmologies, is the oscillating cosmological model, or the cyclical model.

This model is sometimes referred to the Big Bounce.

This is where the universe go from Bang to Crunch, then Bang again and Crunch. This is one possibility where the universe is eternal, but it go through a series of death and rebirth, a series of expansions and contractions.

But since we cannot view anything but the current universe at the Recombination epoch, then there is no way to tell, if the older manifest of universe exist before this current one.

The Big Bounce is theoretically possible, but not evidentially so.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Since our universe appears to have expanded from singularity, then what the "pecking-order" at that point of expansion would largely determine the order as the expansion continued. However, if there are other universes, which most cosmologists think now is likely, the singularities would not likely to be the same, therefore their "order" would be different.

Or, to put it a different way, the "laws of physics" are likely different between universes, and they even may differ somewhat in different regions of one universe, including ours.

Ever had a m.r.i.? That machine actually defies our basic laws of physics because the inventor changed the "order"-- just don't ask me how he did it. Right now, some scientists are working on making computers that operate on quantum mechanic principles, which again would change the "order".

In my last two examples, humans changed the order, but the reality is that back 13+ billion years ago, whatever pattern emerged from the singularity, even if by chance alone, would establish what the overall order would eventually be.

Of course, this does not prove nor disprove if there's a creator-god(s).

What does not prove or disprove a Creator God? The fact that you have no answer for the question of infinite regression you've begged? The fact that the further we go in science, the more astounded we are at a mindless, mechanistic creation that reveals quantum mechanics?
 
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