Evidence -- making it useful

[CG Didymus]

OK. No messenger so far has fulfilled the messianic prophecy (peace on earth). So there is so far no way to consider someone a Messenger (hence no evidence). Ofcourse you can have faith despite this fact but this faith is without evidence.

The best that Baha'is can do is say their guy offered some of the rulers of the world the chance for peace. All they had to do was accept him as being sent from God.

Surprise, surprise, they all rejected him, accept the Queen of England or something like that. But the Christian prophecies from Revelation have Jesus coming back and destroying the evil kings and rulers of the Earth. I just don't see where it's prophesied that the Messiah will get rejected again. And Baha'is haven't shown me anywhere from any religion where that was predicted. Then there is this...

The Messenger needs to be studied.

Lots of us have studied or been in a religion based on the teachings of one of the other people Baha'is claim were messengers/manifestation of God.

the given Message

And what did we learn in those other religions? The message from those people, like Krishna, like Buddha and Jesus. Was the message anything like what the Baha'is say? Not to me.

So, I wonder, have the Baha'is really studied the messages of these other people that they claim were messengers? Then where the Baha'i Faith completely fails for me is when the make four people from the Jewish Bible messengers. The worst for me is when they claim Adam was a messenger. What then was his message? I don't think they know.

All that they care about is that they need to show that there was a series of "divine" men sent from their God. But like with so much of their beliefs and claims, they can't show any proof, evidence or reasons why they claim or believe those things.

So we, those of us that question the Baha'i Faith, are supposed to study these supposed messengers of God. But do they? It seems more like another case of their religion saying that is what is true, and they just believe it. Their religion saying it is the proof.

 

[CG Didymus]

That all depends upon if one thinks they have the power given of God to break the seals of Revelation,

And who is wothy? The Lamb was worthy. Now who is this Lamb? Jesus, the Bab, or who? I think Jesus is the best fit. But Baha'is try to make the Bab fit. And then what do they do with Baha'u'llah? They make him the Father? They make him God? They are just guessing? Because Revelation easily be said to be symbolic, that opens the door for Baha'is to come up with all sorts of interpretations that make their prophets, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, appear everywhere in Revelation. Even as two of the "Three Woes".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And who is wothy? The Lamb was worthy. Now who is this Lamb? Jesus, the Bab, or who? I think Jesus is the best fit. But Baha'is try to make the Bab fit. And then what do they do with Baha'u'llah? They make him the Father? They make him God? They are just guessing? Because Revelation easily be said to be symbolic, that opens the door for Baha'is to come up with all sorts of interpretations that make their prophets, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, appear everywhere in Revelation. Even as two of the "Three Woes".

It only matters what you choose CG.

What do you know of the story of the Bab? If you know the story of the Bab, what makes their life stories and events any different? Both concluded in their martyrdom. Jesus death suspended on the cross and the Bab's death by suspension and firing squad!

A Baha'i does not make them the fulfillment of Prophecies, they are or they are not the fulfillment and they are or are not as claimed.

That is why they left the evidence.

Regards Tony

 

[PearlSeeker]

That all depends upon if one thinks they have the power given of God to break the seals of Revelation, otherwise, one only offers their own personal interpretation.

Why study the Messenger then?

Baha'u'llah has brought peace. That some are yet to practice peace, well that is their quandary, but Baha'is have been living peace from the time Baha'u'llah asked them to do so.

I would offer God's Kingdom is already built and the invitation is always open, it never closes.

Peace is a noble goal. Some are living peace. I welcome this. But no one has made it global as the prophecy promises. If this is not required then everyone living peacefully should be deemed a Manifestation/Messenger.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The worst for me is when they claim Adam was a messenger. What then was his message? I don't think they know.

I know - "Blame it all on women."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why study the Messenger then?

Because they can break the seals. The fulfil prophecy l, so they are the answers.

Regards Tony

 

[rational experiences]

Men are humans.

Machines don't exist anywhere and own no law...mechanics....new reactions to mass ignoring past Infinite laws. Pressures.

No machine no thesis no science.

You're a human. Star mass returns to earth. You see it. It's not science.

What do you know?

I live with ice on earth as mass pressure changes.

Ice wasn't there before as I wandered around earth I saw beasts inside of the ice. Frozen.

I knew giant animals used to live on earth.

I'm not snap frozen so I know I wasn't there.

Basic human advice.

No mechanics.
No theories.
No science.

In that review why did you human men agree to mechanics?

Reason. A star mass separate mass owning metals mass not of earth...wasn't suns dust as light mass above.

Light and earth pressures with ice.

A star reunited with its sun. So became like the sun itself. Above.

Extra.

Infinite law history had removed the suns attack by void.

First human aware mind change. Related to stars mass earth gain.

How is it a messenger..when it brought evil information to mans mind?

It's not holy advice first.

So men ask men why do you keep pretending it is holy advice?

The history states it was evil mass.

Men's advice stated only a cold star mass is holy. Wanders past.

If the star crosses it becomes unholy.

Baha'i said but we hadn't been sacrificed.

Muslim men who had agreed with Jesus said we don't believe in Satan.

Evil star.

Why was Baha'i leader murdered by law?

As he would not agree it was an unholy star as it had crossed.

He gave falsified self evidence.

Rome had learnt the star crosses over.

Jesus terms had been involved in satanic attack.

So men are given two options. Tell historic truth first. Both sides of a review to be honest.

Life was natural with holy father first.

Then came the stars cross. As ice was taught the saviour support of small biology cells.

Baha'i had not taught father life was holy first.

Egyptian science had not taught father's human life was holy first either.

All past chosen behaviours owned a story why.

As it's history that European man had Muslim support to not rebuild temple science in Jerusalem belonging to pyramid technology.

 

[SkepticThinker]

This applies to everyone, regardless of their religious persuasion.

Yes it does. It's just that some are more aware of it than others, and take it into account.

 

[SkepticThinker]

As you say, you don't have real evidence for the biggest question, pre BB.

Nobody does. And so we can't draw any conclusions about it.

Every atheist that has died so far, has died in ignorance. They have waited for science to produce real hard evidence, to show that the universe came from natural causes. But so far, science has failed to do this. There are many conflicting thoughts how it could have happened, take your pick.

Atheism deals only with one thing - god claims. Atheists simply lack belief in god(s). That's it. Atheism says nothing else. It's not even a claim. It has nothing to say about what may or may not have existed, pre-Big Bang (if that's even a concept that makes sense).

If you wish to say, I believe the universe has a natural cause, I can accept that. Because that is as much as you can truthfully claim.

Do you have evidence otherwise?

 

[F1fan]

That all depends upon if one thinks they have the power given of God to break the seals of Revelation, otherwise, one only offers their own personal interpretation.

Why would anyone be so arrogant as to assume they know any of this?

Baha'u'llah has brought peace. That some are yet to practice peace, well that is their quandary, but Baha'is have been living peace from the time Baha'u'llah asked them to do so.

Brought peace? Both world wars have happened since then. He is a total failure.

If you want to feel better, iof God really told baha'u'llah anything it was God's failure to not know where humans were heading, or how humans are not completely rational beings. The only thing that could have stopped WW1 and 2 was the many European nations not marching towards military posturing for the sake of national pride. Does God address any of this in the writings? Nothing I have seen. Note this isn;t just a porblem of leadership, but of citizens who are not very rational themselves, and go along with bad politics, nationalism, and military solutions.

I would offer God's Kingdom is already built and the invitation is always open, it never closes.

This sounds like a desperate measure of a long list of failures in the real world. Of course you dream about a heaven, what Baha'u'llah and Baha'i are doing has failed. Dreaming about some other world is like sticking your fingers in your ears and humming lalalalalala. If you can't solve the problems of the real world why do you keep bothering trying to sell your religion?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why would anyone be so arrogant as to assume they know any of this?

God does as God chooses.

The Messengers are God's gift to humanity, God's Mercy, Bounty and Grace to humanity, the light and givers of life to humanity.

Without the Messengers, the apex of material creation, we do not exist as rational beings.

So given all the power they are given, a power of and over all creation, arrogance is not applicable to them. Humility is definitely applicable to them.

The arrogance belongs 100%, only to us. The lack of humility is our undoing.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Does God address any of this in the writings? Nothing I have seen.

I would offer you have not looked hard enough. Yes God warned us, over and over in fact and the great thing is, it is never to late, we can still implement that guidance.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

what Baha'u'llah and Baha'i are doing has failed.

I see it is the only thing that has not failed. Faith in God is our saving grace. I would offer It is the foundation that will be built upon after humanity starts picking up the pieces of the civilizations they helped destroy.

It is to humanities shame that this will be the ultimate outcome, that we wreak so much destruction when peace was a choice all along.

Regards Tony

 

[Eric Hyom]

The thread title is - 'Evidence, making it useful' Real evidence becomes useful when people stop arguing about it.

There is nothing pre-Big Bang. There may not be anything pre-Big Bang. That may be when time began.

And yes, it does appear likely that the universe has a natural cause. We do know that the universe exists. What exactly cause the Big Bang is unknown at this time.

In your attempt to show the science behind the creation of the universe. you have had to use the words, 'Unknown', 'appears likely', and 'twice you said it 'may'.

We have faith and trust that God created the universe and life, and like you we have no hard evidence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The thread title is - 'Evidence, making it useful' Real evidence becomes useful when people stop arguing about it.



In your attempt to show the science behind the creation of the universe. you have had to use the words, 'Unknown', 'appears likely', and 'twice you said it 'may'.

We have faith and trust that God created the universe and life, and like you we have no hard evidence.

Of course I used proper terminology. If one does not have sufficient evidence for something the proper claims is to admit that one does not know yet. You also just admitted to a flawed argument. You are arguing based upon "faith". Faith is not a pathway to the truth. A Muslim's faith is going to be as strong as yours, or even stronger in some cases. Does that make him correct at all?

You use faith, I do not make that error. I do have hard evidence for what I do believe. You do not appear to have any hard evidence for your beliefs.. That is why your argument fails. And it also demonstrates that you probably do not know how to make evidence useful. The scientific method is all about making evidence useful, but one has to be willing to own up to what is not covered by evidence yet.

 

[F1fan]

God does as God chooses.

Then God wanted no change, or God is a failure. If he sends messengers and gives them messages that are supposed to have an effect on humanity that brings peace and ends wars, but it doesn't happen, what are we to think of this God?

The Messengers are God's gift to humanity, God's Mercy, Bounty and Grace to humanity, the light and givers of life to humanity.

Thanks for nothing. Talk about a gift that is worse than underwear or socks. What have the messengers accomplished. And let's be honest, Baha'i can't include any other icon of other religions since those religions do not mirror what Baha'u'llah claims.

No one except Baha'i have any value assigned to Baha'u'llah, and given what has been said he has not impressed anyone to any significant degree.

Without the Messengers, the apex of material creation, we do not exist as rational beings.

So given all the power they are given, a power of and over all creation, arrogance is not applicable to them. Humility is definitely applicable to them.

The arrogance belongs 100%, only to us. The lack of humility is our undoing.

Arrogance does belong to Baha'i for sure. You guys brag so much about how awesome your messenger is, but what has he actually accomplished that has made any real difference?

I would offer you have not looked hard enough. Yes God warned us, over and over in fact and the great thing is, it is never to late, we can still implement that guidance.

What you say here is what conspiracy theorists say to skeptics: you just don't see the evidence, you aren't paying attention, something is wrong with you, you're not looking hard enough, do your research, I can see the truth so clearly, etc.

We have read your texts. They are vague. They are poorly written. They appeal to too much religious assumptions. They offer no method of how to deal with the real problem, and that is human psychology, namely low self-esteem. No wonder these texts couldn't prevent all the wars we have had in the last 150 years. You need to accept that this track record is terrible.

I see it is the only thing that has not failed. Faith in God is our saving grace. I would offer It is the foundation that will be built upon after humanity starts picking up the pieces of the civilizations they helped destroy.

Sorry, this is naive, as much of the destruction you are referring to is due to religious people acting through their God, which is also your God. If you are going to blame the people for gettin g God's message wrong, what makes you think you are any better? Your faith? Their faith too. Suicide bombers have faith, and actually have the guts to kill themselves for their faith. How about you? Are you that committed? Maybe they are the one's that know something you don't.

It is to humanities shame that this will be the ultimate outcome, that we wreak so much destruction when peace was a choice all along.

Humanism is a better path than any religion, including yours. If Baha'u'llah was a humanist and dropped all the God nonsense, and wrote in a more coherent format, and offered real plans for nations to follow, he might have accomplished something. But he hasn't.

 

[rational experiences]

If a human using human words says O I'm on earth.

It's rock. A mass a planet. The energy body of my man's science practice.

It owned it's own created heavens. So earth is its own god and own creator.

God not spoken about anywhere else by anyone else for any reason. Exact

I'm just human.

First natural word use. I think I describe.

Then you thesis.

So father mother animals before them..nature before them. Came out of the eternal. Man baby says I know all that history is before I owned a baby man's life.

Yet it's not any theory it was actual.

What type of entry would you quote?

A spirit being pre owned eternal type had always existed.....they crossed over.

Not came out of an ark. As the ark melted hit mt Ararat where it landed hit. Suns crossing. It had blackened scorched Sin AI word used exact. My Sinai..man's new sin caves or side piercing. AI caused.

Gods flesh mass then leeches chemicals. Side piercing not any man. Science space womb body evil mother abomination.

Man caused evil mother. Removed bared naked earths mass. Garden combusted. As it combusted as gods body wood sacrificed his brain chemistry changed and he heard recorded voice saw images.

Face of body mountain was veiled as it had been sun scorched by clouds mass burning fall. It rained and rained cooling disintegrating mountains face mass. Dust as it's feet. Mountain mass shifted.

Reason phi actually was owned by clouds mass existing. Not science. Where it sat as a thought.

Thesis. Earths heavens gases had come out of mountain law hell volcanic mass. First. By O God earth the creator. Thesis. I'm aware.

Man says I copy laws. Tried to cause a mountain where his machine temples were to convert into a volcano. First position of gods gas history.

Pretty basic you knew exactly what you had caused men of science.

Told the story exactly. Why human and animal images then turned in clouds mass. You caused it by life's sacrifice.

Only humans using a con science lied about the advice after by reading of it. As science had been outlawed as Satanism. Not for God.

As CH rist methane only arose out of gods body inside a heavens mass. CH was never origin gas in immaculate. Immaculate the only correct title. Clear gas no name.

Why they caused Anti of it. Mass removed of the gas that arose out of earth mass. Newly arisen. Today men say cow farts.

Methane ground heated involved in gained new sin holes. Kills biology cells instant.

Pretty basic advice. Attack came out of ground base too science machines origins. How men did evil.

No machine no evil either. Pretty basic they weren't doing God science. It was satanisms.

How a man's sexual behaviour changed. Quoted by a nal sex I get the power Satan...a brain mind defect.

As motivation for natural sex was a virgin females life. The teaching.

Men transported metal versus sun law .....sun equalled earths dusts. Space infinity equalled hot melted yet now cold melt metal seams.

So you said you transcended space laws. Removed mass from infinity law to time shift over ruling two natural laws....then built your earth machine. Machine came from out of laws of time confessed man.

Said it exactly.

You knew why it overheated in its body mass as you reacted earth mass dusts again. Position.mans controls only science he built.

So machines overheated blew up. Same event modern science.

As you today tried to remove energy out of your own machines past law mass. It's body your new god metals.

Even before it was cold itself. As you've theoried back in time hot metals moving...stars.

Two cold laws ignored as natural earths position.

A cold metal and a cold dust.
Infinite by your calculus overcome by men on earth is just a machine.

As ignored warned third position.

So men said three times you've ignored real law.

Humanity says lucky I know AI by space conditions kept us safe too. By space removal of the sacrificing body.

Suns dusts first before cold star mass. Disintegrating dust star mass cold gases heated. Moving. Themed destruction.

As attack by suns history had stopped.

As space law Infinite removed the sacrificed God mass man caused. The cross of it. Above.

As man crossed it below.

Now what below law own roots first?

The nature garden owns life under the ground. Bio roots.

Man's science calculus infers to roots. Straight away humans should realise the con of secondary word use is his confession.

Attack of gardens life.

As it is only gods body mass that science uses as practiced and science.

Men today included biology as we are all first biology hence know they've theoried against life Existing.

They don't want the sacrifice to be taken away by law. As infinity took it away.

Man's new theme I will control Infinity.

They want to hold it as a resource.

So whens Jesus not Jesus as a one of event? Causes.

When men do new calculated earth dust mass removal as false men prophets. Predictions. Calculations. Future themed reaction not yet reacting.

New false fall alien seen in ground image. False predicted causes against one of holy Jesus event. Past only.

Jesus was in past. Man attacks Jesus conditions in new prophet science. Now. Our warning in present life is now.

Life's image said healer medical teachers of law taught lives its god image inside its owned DNA genesis. As body one of its owned self.

So is crop mass once a seed. Yes. As seed is its image. Growth from the seed it's rooted life under the ground a crop.

It's proof it has nothing to do with phi caused fallout.

As a circle in themed heavens mass is invisible... it owns no power... it doesn't manifest.... it doesn't exist. It's unseen not reality. Said teaching.

The teaching against maths calculated men chosen predictive human want of atmospheric caused changes.

As temples used machines. No transmitters even existed only heavens mass did. Spirit. Gases. No dense mass.

Men had to build machine give it life by clay urns grape built concocted acidic batteries as powered life a machine. To power up machine to transmit only by man's control machine.

Why once beer brewing was outlawed as was wine. The very reason. Memory.

Jewish science he the brew to build life for batteries to power evil machines as sacrificing life of gods mass in temples.

Not read as it was stated. Human life was hurt because of temple practices.

No machine no laws mechanics. No function either.

Man's lied as his mechanics was man only science he designed and controlled. It had never existed in any created law.

Still today he makes pretend laws to build just his machine only.

Mr destroyer warning.

 

[Eric Hyom]

You use faith, I do not make that error. I do have hard evidence for what I do believe.

That is a massive contradiction. If you have hard evidence you wouldn't need to believe, you would Know,

You believe, and I believe. You rely on limited scientific evidence, I believe in God.

The thread title is - 'Evidence, making it useful'. Real evidence means there is nothing to argue about.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is a massive contradiction. If you have hard evidence you wouldn't need to believe, you would Know,

You believe, and I believe. You rely on limited scientific evidence, I believe in God.

The thread title is - 'Evidence, making it useful'. Real evidence means there is nothing to argue about.

Yes, I should have said know. I guess context is a concept that is foreign to you.

But no, even with "real evidence" there can be plenty to talk about. "Real evidence" may be insufficient, it may be misinterpreted, etc..

 

[PearlSeeker]

Because they can break the seals. The fulfil prophecy l, so they are the answers.

We are going round in circles. I'm supposed to examine the evidence just to see that I can't do it because only the Messenger himself can interpret the evidence. The only option then is blind faith.