Evidence -- making it useful

[CG Didymus]

Nothing you say here is acceptable as true because you refer to a God as if it is a fact, and known to be xisting. No gods are known to exist. My free will allows me the freedom to read posts like yours and recognize and identify bad and deceptive claims. You have been warned about doing this yet you don;t care. Is that a result of your free will, to disrespect critical thinkers?


Nothing in your quoted text is evidence of any god existing. The text is little more than incoherent, religious ramblings. It offers no facts or practical advice, so I don't see any real value to anyone.



It's funny that critical thinkers do this, and offer you well explained reasoning why your claims are rejected, but you don't care.


This is a typical religious claim, yet believers are very absorbed in their beliefs and egos. That is all quite worldly, and they don't understand it. Just because their beliefs are supposedly about an immaterial God they believe their mental experience is as well. No. All of it is very much of this world.

Justice? Love for all people no matter what race or religion? And all the other things that Baha'is are supposed to do, like being humble, respectful of others. Which I think should lead them to be able to see things from other people's point of view, that would show some respect and understanding.

Do Baha'is here on the forum show any of that? It's more like, "We're right and we have the proof... Our prophet is the proof." And have we looked at the "evidence" and "proof". Yes, and we found flaws in it... things we didn't agree with. But how do Baha'is respond back? Essentially, it's we that are wrong and blind to the truth.

 

[CG Didymus]

You only need to be concerned with your choices CG.

Regards Tony

No, I don't think so. We all need to be concerned about all of it, since one person's choice can, and often does, affect us all. This type of responce seems to be just your way of getting out of answering questions. Which, to me, is evidence that Baha'is don't have all the answers.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see that is a complete denial of reality.

Reality? That God exists? More specifically, the God that Baha'is say exists is real? What about all the Gods that have been believed in and that are still believed in (the trinity) that are false? How do we know they are false? It's their words against yours. Both of you have the same type of "evidence", which is kind of like, "Our Scriptures say so. And they are inerrant." Or "Our prophet said so, and he speaks with God, so he should know."

The evidence God has given us via the Messages and the Revelations given by the Mesengers has been proved true by logical, just and unbiased minds.

What "evidence"? Each message from these supposed messengers contradicts each other. And yes, Baha'is have a way to explain those contradictions away. But can we trust the Baha'i explanation as being true? Depends... You say it came from God through his messenger/manifestation, Baha'u'llah. Okay, let's see the proof the God and Baha'u'llah is real. Oh yeah, the proof is circular, which proves nothing.

intentional blindness.

Who is blind? We all kind of don't want to see things that we don't agree with. But... there are some things we do see. Lack of proof for God and Baha'u'llah. Teachings that some of us don't agree with and believe to be false. We see that, but Baha'is are... kind of blind to it.

On the plus side, you are the most consistent responder and creator of threads. We wouldn't be here without you. If you go, which other Baha'is will fill the void? But for a religion that believes it has a vital message from God that can bring peace and unity, why isn't there more Baha'is responding and creating threads and helping those blind ones to see? Lack of participation, but also lack of answers, is evidence that maybe Baha'is really don't care and don't have all the answers... just a lot of claims.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You'd be surprised at how much easier the skeptical find it to doubt, than do the gullible.

That is their quandary.

I was sceptical before I actually studied the evidence. In fact my wife nearly disowned me, as I was so pig headed about the new Faith she had found. I wanted nothing of any faith.

So it may just be their loss.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

People are open to evidence but it must be plausible. Real evidence is something that can be tested, demonstrated, verified, proved, experienced ... How can you verify someone is really a Messenger?

So many people have come and gone and so many threads like this. It's probably been years. Same questions, same answer. The Baha'is have no other answer except, their guy said so. And basically, they say,"Just look at the guy... how can you not trust him?"

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, what is the conclusion you came to for the various people that Baha'is say are manifestations of God? For Adam, then Abraham and Noah. Then go to the various incarnations of Vishnu, and what is your conclusion? But does the Baha'i Faith believe in any of the others? Or just Krishna? Then take a look at what was taught by Buddha. What conclusions do you come up with? And only going by what the Scriptures of those religions say about them, since what Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith says about them wasn't available to those people.

Like I keep saying, if all we go by is what the Bible says about Adam, no way is he a manifestation of God. And I don't think a "rational" mind can make Noah or Abraham into manifestations either. But let's see if you can give a good, Bible-based argument why they are. Then let's see what you can do with Krishna and Buddha and see what your "rational" reasons are for not mentioning the other incarnations of Vishnu. And remember, base it only on the Scriptures of those religions. Later, we can talk about the Baha'i interpretation of how and why Baha'is believe these people were manifestations.

CG maybe the quandaries you see are from the direction you approach it from?

Personally I thought little of faith and God prior to my wife telling me she had just become a Baha'i in early 1984. So after a month or two and much friction, I accepted the offer to read a book called God Love Laughter, by William Sears.

That book changed my negative mindset to faith and God, ut was what I needed. So my journey began and I learnt of Faith from the Writings of the Baha'i Faith. That is the light I see all Faiths by, as it is Baha’u’llah that has offered to us they are all One.

So I do not come from a position that would doubt they are not, I come from a position of assurance that they are, so why is that different?

Well most importantly, I am not looking for what makes them different, I am looking for what makes them One and I have found that mostly does not lay in the Messages they gave, as that is suited to the age given, it lays in the fundamental aspect of the Oneness of the Holy Spirit, the Virtues and Morals which emanate from the Manifestations.

So when deciding who may have been a Manifestation, it gets more difficult as time goes further back and the records are no longer as reliable. Many records are lost, yet we can read what remains. I read in the light of oneness, so I look for the same Virtues in all that I read, we can also start to see when the Writings may be tainted with a more material Input by a human understanding.

So really the conclusion for me is that I do not need to prove any of them, if the Bible and the Quran contain a name, then I know, because of what Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah have offered, that they, One and All are connected to that Oneness and that is the key to our unity as a human race.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, I don't think so. We all need to be concerned about all of it, since one person's choice can, and often does, affect us all. This type of responce seems to be just your way of getting out of answering questions. Which, to me, is evidence that Baha'is don't have all the answers.

Maybe I should have offered that we are only responsible for our own choices, so I have found is just a distraction from our own faults, to be so concerned about everyone else's.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

1. I think that one should rightly be vigilant of someone personally calling themselves a “messenger of God”. I don’t think that it is possible for someone who does not believe in gods, to identify any “messenger of God”. I think that those who believe in gods, would attempt to identify a “messenger of God” by how well they embody the ideals of that God. I think that those who believe in gods, would be careful to distinguish between worshiping a god and worshiping its messengers.
2. I think this may differ depending on type of faith, but that in matters of a Christian god and the Christian “holy message”, Man cannot assess conduct by its final results, because Man does not have access to the overall impact of a conduct. Therefore, Man assesses conduct by its impact on what is before him and is taught to trust that God attends to the judgement of that which he cannot foresee. The Christian idea is that if Man constantly attends to not himself impacting the circumstances he encounters negatively, his overall impact will be less destructive too. A Christian, in this sense, would mainly be concerned with whether a “messenger’s” message is inspiring to constructive self-vigilance in the constant present. If it is, the message would be in harmony with ideals from their Christian god - whether divinely inspired or not.
3. I think what I thought in point 2.

Humbly,
Hermit

I think the Baha'i Faith is worth looking into. And I have, and I'd say it's not too bad. But, for me, it's not perfect. The claim that Baha'u'llah is the return of Krishna, Buddha, Jesus and everybody else is a problem for me. I don't agree with their explanations and interpretations. The big deal is the plan for peace. First off, they say that all nations should disarm? How's that going to happen? Even the "good" countries, I would suspect they would cheat and hide some weapons away, just in case. Then they say if one nation goes bad, that all the other nations should rise up and put down the rebellion. With what? They've disarmed.

Anyway, what bothers me the most is their claim that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies of all the major religions. I don't see it. I keep asking them... Where does any prophecy say that the Messiah or any of the others in the other Scriptures, will return in the end times and not fix things right then are there? What does it say he will do? And, since we know what Baha'u'llah did do, where does it say that the promised one would return to Persia, get thrown in jail, exiled and imprisoned, and die without fixing things? But living a plan for a religion, and the people in his religion to slowly start to fix things? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't see how that was what the Scriptures of the other religions predicted.

Then the Baha'i community... Is it working? That's something we can see. They elect nine people to serve for one year to run the community. Are there problems? In large cities, if the Baha'is had control of the majority of the people, could they even run the affairs of the city? They have a "feast" every nineteen days, part of it is dealing with the business affairs of the community. What if the community is a city with millions of people and most of them are Baha'is? How could they even find a place to hold the meeting let alone run it? I hope they have a plan, but I've never heard it.

But, like I say, I think it's worth learning about what Baha'is believe and say.

 

[CG Didymus]

CG maybe the quandaries you see are from the direction you approach it from?

Personally I thought little of faith and God prior to my wife telling me she had just become a Baha'i in early 1984. So after a month or two and much friction, I accepted the offer to read a book called God Love Laughter, by William Sears.

That book changed my negative mindset to faith and God, ut was what I needed. So my journey began and I learnt of Faith from the Writings of the Baha'i Faith. That is the light I see all Faiths by, as it is Baha’u’llah that has offered to us they are all One.

So I do not come from a position that would doubt they are not, I come from a position of assurance that they are, so why is that different?

Well most importantly, I am not looking for what makes them different, I am looking for what makes them One and I have found that mostly does not lay in the Messages they gave, as that is suited to the age given, it lays in the fundamental aspect of the Oneness of the Holy Spirit, the Virtues and Morals which emanate from the Manifestations.

So when deciding who may have been a Manifestation, it gets more difficult as time goes further back and the records are no longer as reliable. Many records are lost, yet we can read what remains. I read in the light of oneness, so I look for the same Virtues in all that I read, we can also start to see when the Writings may be tainted with a more material Input by a human understanding.

So really the conclusion for me is that I do not need to prove any of them, if the Bible and the Quran contain a name, then I know, because of what Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah have offered, that they, One and All are connected to that Oneness and that is the key to our unity as a human race.

Regards Tony

Now that's an awesome answer. That was from someplace deep inside you. Thanks.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Reality? That God exists? More specifically, the God that Baha'is say exists is real? What about all the Gods that have been believed in and that are still believed in (the trinity) that are false? How do we know they are false? It's their words against yours. Both of you have the same type of "evidence", which is kind of like, "Our Scriptures say so. And they are inerrant." Or "Our prophet said so, and he speaks with God, so he should know."

If one blinds themselves to God, there is naught we can do CG, one must choose to open their eyes. The Seven Valleys by Baha'u'llah is the journey to open one's eyes.

The Seven Valleys

Extract

"...At every moment he beholdeth a wondrous world, a new creation, and goeth from astonishment to astonishment, and is lost in awe at the works of the Lord of Oneness.

Indeed, O Brother, if we ponder each created thing, we shall witness a myriad perfect wisdoms and learn a myriad new and wondrous truths…

God, the Exalted, hath placed these signs in men, to the end that philosophers may not deny the mysteries of the life beyond… For some hold to reason and deny whatever the reason comprehendeth not, and yet weak minds can never grasp the matters which we have related, but only the Supreme, Divine Intelligence can comprehend them…

All these states are to be witnessed in the Valley of Wonderment, and the traveler at every moment seeketh for more, and is not wearied. Thus the Lord of the First and the Last in setting forth the grades of contemplation, and expressing wonderment hath said: “O Lord, increase my astonishment at Thee!”

Likewise, reflect upon the perfection of man’s creation, and that all these planes and states are folded up and hidden away within him.

Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form When within thee the universe is folded?" – Baha’u’llah, The Seven Valleys, pp. 31-34.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

People are open to evidence but it must be plausible. Real evidence is something that can be tested, demonstrated, verified, proved, experienced ... How can you verify someone is really a Messenger?

Take note of the issues that face humanity, read and study the Message given.

There will be no doubt.

Regards Tony

So many people have come and gone and so many threads like this. It's probably been years. Same questions, same answer. The Baha'is have no other answer except, their guy said so. And basically, they say,"Just look at the guy... how can you not trust him?"

I would offer the same Answer CG.

The Messenger needs to be studied. It is their person, the Revelation and the given Message that is the poof that they are indeed from God.

There is no other way to determine this, as they did not come to prove it with miracles, or by changing our freewill choice.

I did not derived this evidence source from my own mind CG, it is what Baha'u'llah offered in many passages as to where we will find proof of God. The greatest evidence is the Person of the Messengers. In the case of Jesus, the disciples focused on these extraordinary features of Jesus, but subsequently recorded the material miracles to explain this, even when Jesus asked them not to.

So as God is not able to be seen, Baha'u'llah has told us how God can be known.

"...KNOW thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Dayspring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person..."

The proof is in the Evidence, is it not?

Regards Tony

 

[Eric Hyom]

Sorry Eric, but you are not reasoning critically. Let's say that he does not have an explanation for the origin of the universe. What does that mean? What is that evidence for?

it.

The thread asks about making evidence useful. Critical thinking is not evidence. No one has real hard evidence to show that the universe came into being; only by natural causes. Critical thinking won't find truth. You can't say in court, critical thinking proves this man is guilty of murder.

Your critical thinking seems biased, you want it to prove atheism true.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The thread asks about making evidence useful. Critical thinking is not evidence. No one has real hard evidence to show that the universe came into being; only by natural causes. Critical thinking won't find truth. You can't say in court, critical thinking proves this man is guilty of murder.

Your critical thinking seems biased, you want it to prove atheism true.

Critical thinking is what is needed to determine if something is evidence or not.

And you are using a strawman argument. We do have hard evidence on how our universe began, but from what and why is still not fully understood. That leads to why I asked you the question that I asked. We do not have a firm idea. What difference does that make? Why did you even ask?

It may be your perception is biased. You dodged a fairly reasonable question.

 

[CG Didymus]

If one blinds themselves to God, there is naught we can do CG, one must choose to open their eyes.

Is it being blind? Most of us have been in a religion. We were taught about God by that religion. We were told that is the absolute truth. If it was one of the many sects of Christianity, then we were probably taught, as I've said many times, things that aren't even true to Baha'is. Such as a literal 6-day creation, a worldwide flood, that Moses lifted his arms and the seas parted, then closed again drowning the Egyptian army.

Then on to the NT... We were told about angels appearing, a star moving in the sky and a baby being born to a woman without having had sex with a man. That baby grows up and they told us he raised the dead and walked on water. And he himself was killed but came back to life.

Then about God... He walked in the garden with Adam and Eve. He wrote on a wall. He spoke from heaven. He sent fire and brimstone and obliterated a city. Then the early Church leaders concluded that God must be a three in one being. All these things, do you think we are blind to them? Or we have been taught these things and rejected them. The things we were told by our Christian leaders is similar to what Baha'is tell us... "This is the truth. You can believe it and trust it." Can we? No, we can't. Those beliefs are based on the Bible and the NT. Baha'i beliefs are based on the Baha'i writings. What makes them true? Baha'is say the writer makes them true. He is trustworthy. He is who he says he is.

I don't think anyone here is "blind" to what Baha'is are saying. They just don't trust what Baha'is are saying is the absolute truth from some invisible, unknowable God. Too many people have made similar claims and fortunately, most people rejected what they were saying. So, don't call people "blind" when they have looked at the evidence and found it lacking.

 

[F1fan]

Use your critical thinking to provide Evidence to two questions.

How did the universe come into existence by natural causes?

How did life start from non - life, and only by natural causes.

If you have No evidence, that makes you a critical thinker who is happy to be right.

As a critical thinker I know how to recognize an attempted trap by a believer. Also as a critical thinker you should know when asked about matters of reality and science that I defer to what experts in science report. I have nothing more to add than what scientists say about the Big Bang before 1/43 of a second after the event, nor any more about how inorganic chemicals can convert to organic via abiogenesis, the building blocks of life.

What isn't in evidence is any alternatives to what science reports, namely religious beliefs and their creation claims.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is it being blind? Most of us have been in a religion. We were taught about God by that religion. We were told that is the absolute truth. If it was one of the many sects of Christianity, then we were probably taught, as I've said many times, things that aren't even true to Baha'is. Such as a literal 6-day creation, a worldwide flood, that Moses lifted his arms and the seas parted, then closed again drowning the Egyptian army.

Then on to the NT... We were told about angels appearing, a star moving in the sky and a baby being born to a woman without having had sex with a man. That baby grows up and they told us he raised the dead and walked on water. And he himself was killed but came back to life.

Then about God... He walked in the garden with Adam and Eve. He wrote on a wall. He spoke from heaven. He sent fire and brimstone and obliterated a city. Then the early Church leaders concluded that God must be a three in one being. All these things, do you think we are blind to them? Or we have been taught these things and rejected them. The things we were told by our Christian leaders is similar to what Baha'is tell us... "This is the truth. You can believe it and trust it." Can we? No, we can't. Those beliefs are based on the Bible and the NT. Baha'i beliefs are based on the Baha'i writings. What makes them true? Baha'is say the writer makes them true. He is trustworthy. He is who he says he is.

I don't think anyone here is "blind" to what Baha'is are saying. They just don't trust what Baha'is are saying is the absolute truth from some invisible, unknowable God. Too many people have made similar claims and fortunately, most people rejected what they were saying. So, don't call people "blind" when they have looked at the evidence and found it lacking.

God is not invisible and unknowable in this matrix CG.

God sends His "Self" via the Messengers.

The recognition of that is our quandary of religious vision.

"O MAN OF TWO VISIONS! Close one eye and open the other. Close one to the world and all that is therein, and open the other to the hallowed beauty of the Beloved." Bahá’u’lláh

"This is the day for eyes to see and for ears to hear, for hearts to perceive and for tongues to speak forth. Blessed are they that have attained thereunto; blessed are they that have sought after and recognized it! This is the day whereon every man may accede unto everlasting honour, for whatsoever hath streamed forth from the Pen of Glory in regard to any soul is adorned with the ornament of immortality. Again, blessed are they that have attained thereunto!" (Baha'u'llah, The Tabernacle of Unity)

Regards Tony

 

[PearlSeeker]

The Messenger needs to be studied. It is their person, the Revelation and the given Message that is the poof that they are indeed from God.

OK. No messenger so far has fulfilled the messianic prophecy (peace on earth). So there is so far no way to consider someone a Messenger (hence no evidence). Ofcourse you can have faith despite this fact but this faith is without evidence.

 

[Eric Hyom]

We do have hard evidence on how our universe began, but from what and why is still not fully understood.

As you say, you don't have real evidence for the biggest question, pre BB.

Every atheist that has died so far, has died in ignorance. They have waited for science to produce real hard evidence, to show that the universe came from natural causes. But so far, science has failed to do this. There are many conflicting thoughts how it could have happened, take your pick.

If you wish to say, I believe the universe has a natural cause, I can accept that. Because that is as much as you can truthfully claim.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As you say, you don't have real evidence for the biggest question, pre BB.

Every atheist that has died so far, has died in ignorance. They have waited for science to produce real hard evidence, to show that the universe came from natural causes. But so far, science has failed to do this. There are many conflicting thoughts how it could have happened, take your pick.

If you wish to say, I believe the universe has a natural cause, I can accept that. Because that is as much as you can truthfully claim.

I agree. There is nothing pre-Big Bang. There may not be anything pre-Big Bang. That may be when time began. And no, no one has "died in ignorance". At least not in a meaningful way. There will always be unanswered questions in science.

Every Christian has died in ignorance as well. They have no explanation. They have no evidence. They just have an unsupported beliefs.

And yes, it does appear likely that the universe has a natural cause. We do know that the universe exists. What exactly cause the Big Bang is unknown at this time. But to date every "God did it" claim has ultimately failed. There is no evidence for a God. There does not appear to be any need for one. When theists try to use bad logic to "prove" that the universe had a maker that same bad logic "proves" that their god had a maker.

You can believe what you want. But don't expect others to take any unevidenced beliefs of yours seriously.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

OK. No messenger so far has fulfilled the messianic prophecy (peace on earth). So there is so far no way to consider someone a Messenger (hence no evidence). Ofcourse you can have faith despite this fact but this faith is without evidence.

That all depends upon if one thinks they have the power given of God to break the seals of Revelation, otherwise, one only offers their own personal interpretation.

Baha'u'llah has brought peace. That some are yet to practice peace, well that is their quandary, but Baha'is have been living peace from the time Baha'u'llah asked them to do so.

I would offer God's Kingdom is already built and the invitation is always open, it never closes.

Regards Tony