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Evidence -- making it useful

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
This response just says it all, doesn't it?
It depends what you mean by "all".

I believe that Jesus and Muhammad were real people. [peace be with them]
I believe that they taught about Almighty God.
I believe that they were not deluded or fraudulent.

I see that we are able to study many aspects of their lives, and what they taught..
etc. etc.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
It depends what you mean by "all".

I believe that Jesus and Muhammad were real people. [peace be with them]
I believe that they taught about Almighty God.
I believe that they were not deluded or fraudulent.

I see that we are able to study many aspects of their lives, and what they taught..
etc. etc.
Yeah, I didn't mean that. And none of those things are evidence for god(s).

I meant your post speaks volumes about your beliefs and inability to defend them.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Only if a person has mental discipline and reasoning skill, and interested in truth over faith..
That is a false dichotomy.
i.e. that a person who has faith is not interested in the truth.

An atheist does not want to make a value judgment, and sticks to the existence of God as "unknowable".
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
More arrogance from a "critical thinker".
There's nothing arrogant about reason and logic.

The arrogant claim is the one that says the God I personally chose to believe in is the right one, despite the claims of other gods by other people, and despite the fact that I can't provide any evidence whatsoever to anyone asking me to rationally justify that belief. Or the idea that some god created the entire universe just for human beings.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No, there is nothing arrogant about that, but to imply that people who have a faith cannot be interested in truth very much is.
Yeah, there is, for the reasons I just explained. And to which you have no reply except for "nah!"

That poster just stated what rational thinkers are looking for. If you're not interested in thinking rationally, than just disregard it.
Faith is unjustified belief. Anything can be believed on faith. Which is why it isn't a reliable pathway to discerning fact from fiction. Rational thinking and logic is the more effective tool for that.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
No, there is nothing arrogant about that, but to imply that people who have a faith cannot be interested in truth very much is.
When a critical thinker uses the word “truth” the definition is statements that conform to facts and reasoning. Critical thinkers have an interest in understanding what is true about the universe. These judgments are guided by evidence. The more extraordinary a claim or concept the more extraordinary the evidence is required. Critical thinkers aren’t looking for a faith.

When a religious person uses the word it means anything accepted by faith. The two uses are incompatible. Religious truth can be believed yet totally contrary to fact and reason. We often see believers use the word truth in relation to their beliefs but then imply it is the usage and definition of critical thinkers. I wouldn’t call that arrogant but it is deceptive.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No it isn't .. that is just what you want it to be.
You've demonstrated my definition of the word is true, in this very thread. Even if you're not aware of it.

You think that you are "smarter" than 50% of the human race.
Nope.


I do not make such claims about myself or others, regardless of their religious persuasion.
Congratulations. I didn't either.

By the way, just because somebody isn't really smart about a particular topic, doesn't mean they're dumb in general. It just means they're irrational or ignorant on that particular topic.

Exactly .. and it can justified or unjustified.
LOL You just agreed with me and then stated the opposite. :facepalm:

If anything can be believed on faith, then believing on faith is not a reliable pathway to truth. And not justified. As I just said. And again, you said "nah" in response, instead of thinking through what I said.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I don't know, I think muhammad_isa got this one right. You definately have an IQ well over 100 which is where the mid-point of the human bell curve is. You are certainly smarter than way more than the lower 50% of people.

Let's note that his statistics was wrong anyway. There are more than 50% of the human populatyion that identify as religious. It's around 80-85%. I don't know where he gets the 50%, as even if he discounts non-Abrahamic religions they still have over 50%.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Nobody is "stuck" .. we can change what we believe, if we wish or have reason to do so.
Those that have committed themselves to a religion, like born-again Christians or the Baha'i Faith, are stuck. They can't say, "Oh, I believe all of it except this and that." If their religion tells them the Bible is literally true, they are obligated to believe that. If their religion tells them that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, then that's what they've committed themselves to believe. Of course, they can't get unstuck and question those beliefs, but then are they going to keep calling themselves a Christian or a Baha'i?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Those that have committed themselves to a religion, like born-again Christians or the Baha'i Faith, are stuck. They can't say, "Oh, I believe all of it except this and that."
They are only "stuck" if they want to be "stuck"..
..or are you claiming that we are forced to believe a certain creed?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
They are only "stuck" if they want to be "stuck"..
..or are you claiming that we are forced to believe a certain creed?
I have posted a video that explains the Ashe experiments. It shows a subject in one test giving wrong answers to questions ONLY because the others in his group are giving the wrong answer, The guy is obviously stressed, but volunteering the wrong answers due to the stress of peer pressure. He is forced to give the wrong answers, his own mind. He is forcing himself to give wrong answers subconsciously, and his conscious mind knows they are wrong. This is similar to how theists can hold false and irrational ideas but not understand why they believe them.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
I have posted a video that explains the Ashe experiments. It shows a subject in one test giving wrong answers to questions ONLY because the others in his group are giving the wrong answer, The guy is obviously stressed, but volunteering the wrong answers due to the stress of peer pressure. He is forced to give the wrong answers, his own mind. He is forcing himself to give wrong answers subconsciously, and his conscious mind knows they are wrong. This is similar to how theists can hold false and irrational ideas but not understand why they believe them.
This applies to everyone, regardless of their religious persuasion.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Those that have committed themselves to a religion, like born-again Christians or the Baha'i Faith, are stuck. They can't say, "Oh, I believe all of it except this and that." If their religion tells them the Bible is literally true, they are obligated to believe that. If their religion tells them that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, then that's what they've committed themselves to believe. Of course, they can't get unstuck and question those beliefs, but then are they going to keep calling themselves a Christian or a Baha'i?

That is what free will is all about CG. The ability to choose.

Choice does not equate to stagnation, it allows progression, or regression. Not choosing, sitting on the fence, is stagnation.

Regards Tony
 
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