Evidence of NOAH's FLOOD

[Monty]

I suspect you will cause them to have an overload with all the references in your post...

But I wonder if they've ever actually read those stories correctly, or will ever properly read them.

 

[blü 2]

The Jewish bible and Young's literal translation of the Hebrew text, however, clearly say that the flood height was only 15 cubits, along with the KJV and many other versions. Any other interpretation of that verse is just pure fantasy with zero credibility. Perhaps a chat with a rabbi would tell us what the Hebrew text actually says and means.

Please quote me a translation ─ and state whose ─ of the relevant part of Genesis 7 (the equivalent of the part I quoted) ─ and please identify the source of your text ─ and see if we can, as it were, get on the same page.

 

[blü 2]

The Jewish bible and Young's literal translation of the Hebrew text, however, clearly say that the flood height was only 15 cubits, along with the KJV and many other versions. Any other interpretation of that verse is just pure fantasy with zero credibility. Perhaps a chat with a rabbi would tell us what the Hebrew text actually says and means.

You cite Young’s Literal Translation. I regret to report it agrees with me rather than you –

Genesis 7:17 And the deluge is forty days on the earth, and the waters multiply, and lift up the ark, and it is raised
up from off the earth;
18 and the waters are mighty, and multiply exceedingly upon the earth; and the ark goeth on the face of the waters.
19 And the waters have been very very mighty on the earth, and covered are all the high mountains which are under the whole heavens;
20 fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered;
21 and expire doth all flesh that is moving on the earth, among fowl, and among cattle, and among
beasts, and among all the teeming things which are teeming on the earth, and all mankind;

 

[Monty]

You cite Young’s Literal Translation. I regret to report it agrees with me rather than you –

Genesis 7:17 And the deluge is forty days on the earth, and the waters multiply, and lift up the ark, and it is raised
up from off the earth;
18 and the waters are mighty, and multiply exceedingly upon the earth; and the ark goeth on the face of the waters.
19 And the waters have been very very mighty on the earth, and covered are all the high mountains which are under the whole heavens;
20 fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered;
21 and expire doth all flesh that is moving on the earth, among fowl, and among cattle, and among
beasts, and among all the teeming things which are teeming on the earth, and all mankind;

Youngs literal translation clearly says that the flood height was only 15 cubits (COMMA), and clearly doesn't say that the mountains are covered by 15 cubits.

 

[Monty]

Please quote me a translation ─ and state whose ─ of the relevant part of Genesis 7 (the equivalent of the part I quoted) ─ and please identify the source of your text ─ and see if we can, as it were, get on the same page.

The writer(s) of that story were obviously describing a local flood since it drained away like any other similar flood. If Mt Everest was covered by 15 cubits then the extra 4.5 billion cubic kilometres of water would have had no where to drain to. The writer(s) said that the land under the heavens was flooded, ie the flood covered the land to the horizon, and doesn't describe a pure fantasy with zero credibility

 

[blü 2]

The writer(s) of that story were obviously describing a local flood since it drained away like any other similar flood. If Mt Everest was covered by 15 cubits then the extra 4.5 billion cubic kilometres of water would have had no where to drain to. The writer(s) said that the land under the heavens was flooded, ie the flood covered the land to the horizon, and doesn't describe a pure fantasy with zero credibility

The question between you and me is not whether the Flood ever happened. Very very clearly it didn't.

The question is what the text of the Tanakh says about the matter, and it says (a) the flood covered all the high mountains, and (b) rose a further 15 cubits. This is the reading that all ─ perhaps I should say ALL ─ the translators of respected translations have given the text in English.

We've dealt with Young ─ he agrees with me. Do you have anything else?

 

[Monty]

The question between you and me is not whether the Flood ever happened. Very very clearly it didn't.

The question is what the text of the Tanakh says about the matter, and it says (a) the flood covered all the high mountains, and (b) rose a further 15 cubits. This is the reading that all ─ perhaps I should say ALL ─ the translators of respected translations have given the text in English.

We've dealt with Young ─ he agrees with me. Do you have anything else?

Young's Literal translation says fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty (COMMA)
ie that the flood level was only 15 cubits higher than the river level when not in flood.

(COMMA) and the mountains are covered;
ie the highest hills in the flooded area were therefore less than 15 cubits above the river level when not in flood, and clearly DOES NOT SAY. that the highest hills in the flooded area were covered by 15 cubits.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

Young's Literal translation says fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty (COMMA)
ie that the flood level was only 15 cubits higher than the river level when not in flood.

(COMMA) and the mountains are covered;
ie the highest hills in the flooded area were therefore less than 15 cubits above the river level when not in flood, and clearly DOES NOT SAY. that the highest hills in the flooded area were covered by 15 cubits.

Here is the description of the worldwide flood's extent.

Genesis 7:18-22
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

 

[Monty]

Here is the description of the worldwide flood's extent.

Genesis 7:18-22
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail;

and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

IOW the story describes a local flood which was 15 cubits high and drowned most of Noah's family and their sheep and goats and pigs and chooks since there was no very high hills in the flooded area to go to until the flood water drained away.

 

[Eli G]

The Deluge that the Scriptures refer is global:

Gen. 7:21 So all living creatures that were moving on the earth perished—the flying creatures, the domestic animals, the wild animals, the swarming creatures, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 So He wiped every living thing from the surface of the earth, including man, animals, creeping animals, and the flying creatures of the sky. They were all wiped off the earth; only Noah and those with him in the ark survived.
...8:1 But God gave attention to Noah and to all the wild animals and domestic animals that were with him in the ark, and God caused a wind to blow over the earth, and the waters began to subside.

1 Pet. 3:20 (...) God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

Matt. 24:37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

If the Deluge had not been global, all the years of building the ark (an immense ship) would have been avoided only if Noah and his family, without even worrying about any animal to survive, had made a trip to a distant land that did not would be affected by that supposed local flood. Obviously, the Bible story is about a planetary Deluge.

There are proofs of a global deluge all around the planet. Atheists and others confound these proofs with other events they say occurred also in the past.

1) Marine fossils in high lands,
2) heavy transformations of the terrain all around the planet,
3) animals found frozen whose digestive condition shows they were surprised by a sudden catastrophe
4) agglomerations of hundreds of skeletons of non-native animals in remote caves,
5) stories of the flood in hundreds of ancient communities,
6) the fact that the diversity of civilizations and human language converge in the same area that coincides with the settlement of Noah and his family post- Deluge,
7) dozens of cities sunk in the depths of the sea
8) the fact that the time of the formation of modern civilizations coincides with the time that the Bible assigns to the event of the Flood, etc.

 

[Subduction Zone]

IOW the story describes a local flood which was 15 cubits high and drowned most of Noah's family and their sheep and goats and pigs and chooks since there was no very high hills in the flooded area to go to until the flood water drained away.

15 cubits is not very high. About 20 feet. So by context I have to disagree with you. But I am not saying that you are totally wrong. It probably was a local flood that inspired the myth. And there very well may have been a local pig or sheep farmer that had a boat. He may have even have measured how deep the water was and found it to be 15 cubits. But stories grow with the telling and sometimes inadvertent facts persist. 15 cubits of depth would clearly not have killed everyone so that story grew until it was mountains. But the 15 cubit datum persisted. It could have become the 15 cubits over the tallest mountains. By the way, the plural that is involved tells us that the writer had no idea how tall mountains were. There is such a great variety n height that the only proper way to phrase it would have been "15 cubits over the tallest mountain".

Okay, this last should make you feel a bit happier. There has been a flood found that probably inspired the myth. It is in a reasonably close area. The time frame is right. It was severe enough so that someone in the middle of it in a boat could be out of sight of land. And you might want to check out the depth of it as well:

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth | National Center for Science Education

Introduction The Bible (Genesis 6–9) describes a worldwide flood (the Noachian Flood) covering even the highest mountains of the earth and the construction of a huge boat (a rectangular box-like craft) that transported animals, at least two of a kind of all land animals on the earth.

ncse.ngo

 

[Monty]

The Deluge that the Scriptures refer is global:

Gen. 7:21 So all living creatures that were moving on the earth perished—the flying creatures, the domestic animals, the wild animals, the swarming creatures, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 So He wiped every living thing from the surface of the earth, including man, animals, creeping animals, and the flying creatures of the sky. They were all wiped off the earth; only Noah and those with him in the ark survived.
...8:1 But God gave attention to Noah and to all the wild animals and domestic animals that were with him in the ark, and God caused a wind to blow over the earth, and the waters began to subside.

1 Pet. 3:20 (...) God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

Matt. 24:37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

If the Deluge had not been global, all the years of building the ark (an immense ship) would have been avoided only if Noah and his family, without even worrying about any animal to survive, had made a trip to a distant land that did not would be affected by that supposed local flood. Obviously, the Bible story is about a planetary Deluge.

There are proofs of a global deluge all around the planet. Atheists and others confound these proofs with other events they say occurred also in the past.

1) Marine fossils in high lands,
2) heavy transformations of the terrain all around the planet,
3) animals found frozen whose digestive condition shows they were surprised by a sudden catastrophe
4) agglomerations of hundreds of skeletons of non-native animals in remote caves,
5) stories of the flood in hundreds of ancient communities,
6) the fact that the diversity of civilizations and human language converge in the same area that coincides with the settlement of Noah and his family post- Deluge,
7) dozens of cities sunk in the depths of the sea
8) the fact that the time of the formation of modern civilizations coincides with the time that the Bible assigns to the event of the Flood, etc.

The story, however, simply describes a local flood which was 15 cubits high and drained away like every other river flood.
If you actually believe otherwise then why are there six distinct biogeographical zones with their unique range of flora and fauna. And why aren't kangaroos and echidnas also native to the middle east if you claim that there were 14 of each animal species on board Noah's boat.

 

[Monty]

15 cubits is not very high. About 20 feet. So by context I have to disagree with you. But I am not saying that you are totally wrong. It probably was a local flood that inspired the myth. And there very well may have been a local pig or sheep farmer that had a boat. He may have even have measured how deep the water was and found it to be 15 cubits. But stories grow with the telling and sometimes inadvertent facts persist. 15 cubits of depth would clearly not have killed everyone so that story grew until it was mountains. But the 15 cubit datum persisted. It could have become the 15 cubits over the tallest mountains. By the way, the plural that is involved tells us that the writer had no idea how tall mountains were. There is such a great variety n height that the only proper way to phrase it would have been "15 cubits over the tallest mountain".

Okay, this last should make you feel a bit happier. There has been a flood found that probably inspired the myth. It is in a reasonably close area. The time frame is right. It was severe enough so that someone in the middle of it in a boat could be out of sight of land. And you might want to check out the depth of it as well:

Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth | National Center for Science Education

Introduction The Bible (Genesis 6–9) describes a worldwide flood (the Noachian Flood) covering even the highest mountains of the earth and the construction of a huge boat (a rectangular box-like craft) that transported animals, at least two of a kind of all land animals on the earth.

ncse.ngo

If they couldn't swim or also had a boat then they would have drowned along with their animals.
The story says that the tallest hills in the flooded area were less than 15 cubits above the normal water level in the river, and why they all drowned or starved to death.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Deluge that the Scriptures refer is global:

Gen. 7:21 So all living creatures that were moving on the earth perished—the flying creatures, the domestic animals, the wild animals, the swarming creatures, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 So He wiped every living thing from the surface of the earth, including man, animals, creeping animals, and the flying creatures of the sky. They were all wiped off the earth; only Noah and those with him in the ark survived.
...8:1 But God gave attention to Noah and to all the wild animals and domestic animals that were with him in the ark, and God caused a wind to blow over the earth, and the waters began to subside.

1 Pet. 3:20 (...) God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

Matt. 24:37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

If the Deluge had not been global, all the years of building the ark (an immense ship) would have been avoided only if Noah and his family, without even worrying about any animal to survive, had made a trip to a distant land that did not would be affected by that supposed local flood. Obviously, the Bible story is about a planetary Deluge.

Yes, we know that the myth says that it is global.

There are proofs of a global deluge all around the planet. Atheists and others confound these proofs with other events they say occurred also in the past.

1) Marine fossils in high lands,

Sorry, this is not a "proof" for the flood. You are taking too shallow of a look at this. Yes, we find marine fossils as all elevations. But we know where they came from. The problem for flood believers is that there are far too many marine fossils. The flood predicts on thin layer all around the world. We see thousands of meters all around the world.

2) heavy transformations of the terrain all around the planet,

Again yes, but it is the wrong kind of transformations.

3) animals found frozen whose digestive condition shows they were surprised by a sudden catastrophe

Nope. This is a misinterpretation of just a few examples.

4) agglomerations of hundreds of skeletons of non-native animals in remote caves,

And that one has been refuted as well. Non-native now. Not non-native then. And even worse we know how they got there. They walked. About 12,000 years ago.

5) stories of the flood in hundreds of ancient communities,

Again, not evidence. People need water to live. Communities need a LOT of water to live so they are quite often found on navigable waterways. Those also tend to flood at time time. Floods breed myths. Myths grow over time. So we would expect to see different flood stories all around the world and that is what we do see.

6) the fact that the diversity of civilizations and human language converge in the same area that coincides with the settlement of Noah and his family post- Deluge,

No, civilizations started before they mythical flood. Some of them had the nerve to ignore it!

7) dozens of cities sunk in the depths of the sea

No, none of those are evidence for the flood. There are a few, not "dozens" of recent cities that do to various geological events sank. But they did not occur at the same time. Something that your myth would predict.

8) the fact that the time of the formation of modern civilizations coincides with the time that the Bible assigns to the event of the Flood, etc.

Even that is not "evidence". You do not have a model. Evidence has to be able to cut both ways. What you have are ad hoc explanations. To have evidence you first need a testable model. A hypothesis.

 

[Monty]

Yes, we know that the myth says that it is global.


Sorry, this is not a "proof" for the flood. You are taking too shallow of a look at this. Yes, we find marine fossils as all elevations. But we know where they came from. The problem for flood believers is that there are far too many marine fossils. The flood predicts on thin layer all around the world. We see thousands of meters all around the world.


Again yes, but it is the wrong kind of transformations.


Nope. This is a misinterpretation of just a few examples.


And that one has been refuted as well. Non-native now. Not non-native then. And even worse we know how they got there. They walked. About 12,000 years ago.


Again, not evidence. People need water to live. Communities need a LOT of water to live so they are quite often found on navigable waterways. Those also tend to flood at time time. Floods breed myths. Myths grow over time. So we would expect to see different flood stories all around the world and that is what we do see.


No, civilizations started before they mythical flood. Some of them had the nerve to ignore it!

No, none of those are evidence for the flood. There are a few, not "dozens" of recent cities that do to various geological events sank. But they did not occur at the same time. Something that your myth would predict.

Even that is not "evidence". You do not have a model. Evidence has to be able to cut both ways. What you have are ad hoc explanations. To have evidence you first need a testable model. A hypothesis.

The story, however, doesn't say that the flood was global, but says that the flood covered the earth under the heavens,
ie the flood covered the land to the horizon, since the bible describes the heavens as a domed tent attached to the ring of the horizon, and does not describe Earth as a spinning spheroid orbiting the sun.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The story, however, doesn't say that the flood was global, but says that the flood covered the earth under the heavens,
ie the flood covered the land to the horizon, since the bible describes the heavens as a global domed tent attached to the ring of the horizon.

I will have to disagree with you since it clearly says that the highest mountains were covered. It is just a myth so why get all excited anyway?

 

[Monty]

I will have to disagree with you since it clearly says that the highest mountains were covered. It is just a myth so why get all excited anyway?

IOW the highest hills were less than 15 cubits about the water level in the river before the flood, which is why most of Noah's family and their animals drowned.

 

[Eli G]

Does the biblical account of the Flood speak of some overflowing river? about "15 cubits about the water level in the river"?

Gen. 7:17 The flooding continued for 40 days on the earth, and the waters kept increasing and began carrying the ark, and it was floating high above the earth. 18 The waters became overwhelming and kept increasing greatly upon the earth, but the ark floated on the surface of the waters. 19 The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains under the whole heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose up to 15 cubits above the mountains. (...) 24 And the waters continued overwhelming the earth for 150 days.

Why do people waste so much time trying to deceive others about what can be so easily proven by reading the biblical account? Or, is there any other reason why people waste so much time trying to confuse others?

 

[Monty]

Does the biblical account of the Flood speak of some overflowing river? about "15 cubits about the water level in the river"?

Gen. 7:17 The flooding continued for 40 days on the earth, and the waters kept increasing and began carrying the ark, and it was floating high above the earth. 18 The waters became overwhelming and kept increasing greatly upon the earth, but the ark floated on the surface of the waters. 19 The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains under the whole heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose up to 15 cubits above the mountains. (...) 24 And the waters continued overwhelming the earth for 150 days.

Why do people waste so much time trying to deceive others about what can be so easily proven by reading the biblical account? Or, is there any other reason why people waste so much time trying to confuse others?

That's just a false bible, since the original Hebrew text and the KJV etc say that the flood was only 15 cubits high, and DO NOT say that mountains were covered by 15 cubits after the ocean level magically rose at the rate of nine metres per hour for 40 days.

 

[Eli G]

You must understand Gen. 7:20 in the context of what the previous verse says:

Gen. 7:19 The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains under the whole heavens were covered.

If what you have is the desire to negate, fight and contradict out of pure vice... No one can help you.

Have a great weekend.