Evidence of NOAH's FLOOD

[shunyadragon]

Yes the NIV etc are just scams. And don't change the fact that the Jewish Orthodox Bible and Youngs Literal Translation and the KJV clearly say that the flood height was only 15 cubits, and DO NOT say that the mountains or high hills were covered by 15 cubits.

I disagree considering the different translations clearly demonstrate that the flood waters were 15 cubits over the hills and mountains as previously cited in multiple translations.

Your assertion creates contradictions in the text that state the water covered the hills and the mountains. How can the waters cover the mountains and the hills that grow olive trees if the water is only 15 cubits deep?

 

[shunyadragon]

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail, and the mountains were covered.

IOW the NIV is just another false version and translation which are just trying to Gerrymander the texts to suit their agendas, given that the Hebrew text says that the flood height was only 15 cubits, and as confirmed by Young's literal translation and the Orthodox Jewish bible and the KJB etc. It's just personal choice if one prefers to read the false fantasies, or the Hebrew text and the OJB and YLT.

And any 10 year old who is actually familiar with the English language and the purpose and function of a semi-colon can clearly see that the KJV says that the flood height was only 15 cubits and not 20 cubits and DOES NOT say that the mountains were covered by 15 or 20 cubits.
I suggest you discuss what the Hebrew text actually says and means with a Rabbi or a credible Hebrew scholar.

I disagree. I like to use different sources and NOT consider anyone source with different agendas.

No that is not what the KJV version states. You have to come up with your contradictory version by a stretch of interpretation to justify your agenda.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail, and the mountains were covered.

. . . and the following confirms this.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Orthodox Jewish Bible

19 And the waters rose exceedingly upon ha’aretz; and all the high hills, that were under kol HaShomayim, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise; and the harim were covered.

21 And kol basar perished that moved upon ha’aretz, both of Oph, and of Behemah, and of Beast, and of every Swarming Thing that swarms upon ha’aretz, and kol haadam;

22 All in whose nostrils was the ruach chayyim, of all that was in the dry land, perished.

23 And every living creature was wiped out which was upon the p’nei haadamah, both Adam, and Behemah, and the Remes, and the Oph HaShomayim; and they were wiped out from ha’aretz: and Noach only remained alive, and they that were with him in the tevah (ark).

24 And the waters flooded upon ha’aretz a hundred and fifty days.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Simple common sense says that Noah's brothers Jabal and Jubal and their families weren't drowned with their other family members since the bible says that they are the fathers of all nomadic herders and musical instrument players (Gen 4:20-21). And in a similar way the bible says that an olive tree wasn't affected by the flood either (Gen 8:11).

Why does it matter? It is just a retelling of the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh myth and that was just a retelling of an earlier one and it looks as if there was at least another earlier one than that. There is no reality left in the myth at all.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Why does it matter? It is just a retelling of the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh myth and that was just a retelling of an earlier one and it looks as if there was at least another earlier one than that. There is no reality left in the myth at all.

It's a mythtery to me, but I could be mythstaken.

 

[Monty]

I disagree considering the different translations clearly demonstrate that the flood waters were 15 cubits over the hills and mountains as previously cited in multiple translations.

Doesn't change the fact that the Hebrew text and the Orthodox Jewish Bible and Young's Literal translation say that the flood was only 15 cubits high and DO NOT say that the hills/mountains were covered by 15 cubits.

Your assertion creates contradictions in the text that state the water covered the hills and the mountains. How can the waters cover the mountains and the hills that grow olive trees if the water is only 15 cubits deep?

Because the Hebrew text doesn't say that mountains/hills were covered by 15 cubits.
If you believe otherwise, then how did the story writer measure the depth of water above Mt Everest?

 

[blü 2]

No explanation in post, but your circular reasoning shows. That calculation is correct and I was extrmely generous to a fault.
But that is a simple technique. Prove with the lower bound and it is proven for all values greater.

You never got back to me to point out where science has located that uniform flood layer all over all continents and islands and the ocean floor, deposited within the last ten thousand years, nor those genetic bottlenecks in every species of land animal all the bottlenecks dating to the same date as the flood layer, nor that necessary extra billion cubic miles of water over and above the water presently on the earth.

As you know, IF the bible's tale of the Genesis flood is true THEN ALL those three things MUST be there.

With the corollary that if they're not there then there was NO Genesis flood.

I take it by your silence on these points that you haven't found anything of the kind.

So NOW, being an honest person, you'll frankly state that this is the case and that you accept that the Genesis flood tale is exactly that, an old tale perhaps about an exceptional flood in ancient Mesopotamia.

 

[Monty]

I disagree. I like to use different sources and NOT consider anyone source with different agendas.

No that is not what the KJV version states. You have to come up with your contradictory version by a stretch of interpretation to justify your agenda.

19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail, and the mountains were covered.

. . . and the following confirms this.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Orthodox Jewish Bible

19 And the waters rose exceedingly upon ha’aretz; and all the high hills, that were under kol HaShomayim, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise; and the harim were covered.

21 And kol basar perished that moved upon ha’aretz, both of Oph, and of Behemah, and of Beast, and of every Swarming Thing that swarms upon ha’aretz, and kol haadam;

22 All in whose nostrils was the ruach chayyim, of all that was in the dry land, perished.

23 And every living creature was wiped out which was upon the p’nei haadamah, both Adam, and Behemah, and the Remes, and the Oph HaShomayim; and they were wiped out from ha’aretz: and Noach only remained alive, and they that were with him in the tevah (ark).

24 And the waters flooded upon ha’aretz a hundred and fifty days.

IOW the Orthodox Jewish Bible and the KJV say the flood was only 15 cubits high, and all the land animals died within the flooded area since all the highest hills within the flood zone were covered.
The only version that counts is the Hebrew text, which also says the flood was only 15 cubits high, and presumably as measured on a flood level gauge. flood level gauge - Google Search
Any other interpretation is pure fantasy and totally meaningless with zero credibility.

 

[Subduction Zone]

IOW the Orthodox Jewish Bible and the KJV say the flood was only 15 cubits high
The only version that counts is the Hebrew text, which says the flood was only 15 cubits high, and presumably measured on a flood level gauge. flood level gauge - Google Search
Any other interpretation is pure fantasy with no credibility

They really don't. You have to assume that people had no idea what a mountain or high hill was.

 

[Monty]

Why does it matter? It is just a retelling of the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh myth and that was just a retelling of an earlier one and it looks as if there was at least another earlier one than that. There is no reality left in the myth at all.

Perhaps it is, but the stories are still based on regular river floods which drown people and animals. In the same way that the story in Gen 19 is based on a volcanic eruption which destroyed two towns and the surrounding area, such as the eruption of Santorini about 3600 years ago which destroyed the Minoan settlements there, and is probably also the source of the story of Atlantis.

 

[Monty]

They really don't. You have to assume that people had no idea what a mountain or high hill was.

In the Gen 7 & 8 story the highest hill was less than 15 cubits higher than normal river height such as Mt Scobie. Echuca & Mt Scobie Hardstands - Earth Works Civil Construction

 

[blü 2]

IOW the Orthodox Jewish Bible and the KJV say the flood was only 15 cubits high
The only version that counts is the Hebrew text, which also says the flood was only 15 cubits high, and presumably as measured on a flood level gauge. flood level gauge - Google Search
Any other interpretation is pure fantasy and totally meaningless with zero credibility.

Didn't I point out your error in an earlier post? That the fifteen cubits here follow an earlier statement that the mountains were covered?

Or (as I asked you then) is it your view that the peaks of the highest mountains say five or six thousand years ago stood 15 cubits above sea level?

 

[Monty]

Didn't I point out your error in an earlier post? That the fifteen cubits here follow an earlier statement that the mountains were covered?

Doesn't change the fact that the Orthodox Jewish Bible and Young's Literal Translation and the KJV say that the flood height was only 15 cubits.

Or (as I asked you then) is it your view that the peaks of the highest mountains say five or six thousand years ago stood 15 cubits above sea level?

The height above sea level is totally irrelevant since the flood height is measured from the normal river height using a river height gauge.

 

[blü 2]

Doesn't change the fact that the Orthodox Jewish Bible and Young's Literal Translation and the KJV say that the flood height was only 15 cubits.

The height above sea level is totally irrelevant since the flood height is measured from the normal river height using a river height gauge.

What fact? That the tops of the tallest mountains in biblical times were less than fifteen cubits above sea level?

The reading you favor isn't tenable. You need to take the sentence in its context, That's the view of people who know a great deal more about these things than you and certainly I do.

 

[Monty]

What fact? That the tops of the tallest mountains in biblical times were less than fifteen cubits above sea level?

What on earth has sea level got to do with the height of the river flood described in Gen 7 & 8, or to the height of the highest hills above the river level in the flooded area? The story describes a river flood, and doesn't describe a tidal flood or a tsunami.

The reading you favor isn't tenable. You need to take the sentence in its context, That's the view of people who know a great deal more about these things than you and certainly I do.

But is Hebrew the first language of those people, and/or are they actually familiar with the English language and the use of a semicolon?
Either way, it still doesn't change the fact that any one who is actually familiar with the English language can see that the Orthodox Jewish Bible and Young's Literal Translation and the KJV say that the flood was only 15 cubits high; (SEMICOLON) and that it covered the highest hills in the flooded area.
And unless you can tell us the height of the highest hills in the flooded area then your comments are totally meaningless.

 

[YoursTrue]

@Monty People during Noah's time lived much, much longer than we do. The Bible says that only Noah, his wife, three sons and their wives survived the Flood. It was an interesting read, though, as I looked at the genealogy.

 

[blü 2]

Doesn't change the fact that the Orthodox Jewish Bible and Young's Literal Translation and the KJV say that the flood height was only 15 cubits.

The height above sea level is totally irrelevant since the flood height is measured from the normal river height using a river height gauge.

Here's Young's translation, which I gather you like.

Genesis 7:17 And the deluge is forty days on the earth, and the waters multiply, and lift up the ark, and it is raised up from off the earth; 18 and the waters are mighty, and multiply exceedingly upon the earth; and the ark goeth on the face of the waters. 19 And the waters have been very very mighty on the earth, and covered are all the high mountains which are under the whole heavens; 20 fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered; ​

How on earth does that NOT say the mountains were covered 15 cubits deep?

Why does not a single translator agree with you?

 

[YoursTrue]

Simple common sense says that Noah's brothers Jabal and Jubal and their families weren't drowned with their other family members since the bible says that they are the fathers of all nomadic herders and musical instrument players (Gen 4:20-21). And if they had drowned with the rest of their family then they wouldn't have been described as the fathers of all nomadic herders and musical instrument players. And in a similar way the bible says that an olive tree wasn't affected by the flood either (Gen 8:11) since it was just a local flood which was only 15 cubits high.

By the time Noah and his family survived, I feel pretty certain his sons knew about tent making and musical instruments. They all lived a long time and could put into practice what they had known from their relatives. Certainly there are some simple instruments that can be emulated. It really wasn't millions of years according to Bible chronology that these people learned in, and it is recognizable that they figured out more about simple instruments (not like the piano or harpsicord that wasn't invented until the past few centuries).

 

[Monty]

@Monty People during Noah's time lived much, much longer than we do. The Bible says that only Noah, his wife, three sons and their wives survived the Flood. It was an interesting read, though, as I looked at the genealogy.

The "years" quoted in the Gen 5 genealogy, however, are obviously more easily observed lunar cycles of ~29 days and not solar cycles of ~365 days. Thus Adam first became pregnant at aged ~11 years old and not an absurd 130 "years" old (Gen 5:1-3). And Methusael was drowned at aged ~80 years old and not an silly 969 "years" old (Gen 5:27). And Noah's sister, Naamah, became pregnant with triplets at aged ~40 years old and not a ridiculous 500 "years" old (Gen 5:32).

And obviously Noah's brothers, Jabal & Jubal, and their families weren't drowned since the bible says they are the fathers of all nomadic herders and musical instrument players. And that particular flood had no effect on kangaroos or sloths etc since they are not native to the flooded area. Nor did the flood affect our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was born.

 

[Monty]

Here's Young's translation, which I gather you like.

Genesis 7:17 And the deluge is forty days on the earth, and the waters multiply, and lift up the ark, and it is raised up from off the earth; 18 and the waters are mighty, and multiply exceedingly upon the earth; and the ark goeth on the face of the waters. 19 And the waters have been very very mighty on the earth, and covered are all the high mountains which are under the whole heavens; 20 fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered; ​

IOW anyone who is actually familiar with the English Language can see that Youngs Literal Translation clearly says the flood was only 15 cubits high, and that the hills/mountains in the flooded area (ie within the horizon "under the whole heavens") were covered and were therefore less than 15 cubits higher than the normal river height. And it clearly DOES NOT say that the mountains in the flooded area were covered by 15 cubits, let alone Mt Everest.

If you believe otherwise, where does the bible say how high the flood actually was, apart from Gen 7:20, or the height of the highest hills in the flooded area?

How on earth does that NOT say the mountains were covered 15 cubits deep?

Why does not a single translator agree with you?

Because I am familiar with the English language and understand what the function and purpose of a semi-colon and comma is.

 

[Monty]

By the time Noah and his family survived, I feel pretty certain his sons knew about tent making and musical instruments. They all lived a long time and could put into practice what they had known from their relatives. Certainly there are some simple instruments that can be emulated. It really wasn't millions of years according to Bible chronology that these people learned in, and it is recognizable that they figured out more about simple instruments (not like the piano or harpsicord that wasn't invented until the past few centuries).

So where does the bible say that, given that Noah kicked the bucket at aged ~79 years old (Gen 9:29) and probably died before his younger brothers, Jubal and Jabal, and their children and grandchildren. And the bible doesn't say that Noah was the father of all nomadic herders and musical instrument players as you falsely imply anyway.