Evidence of NOAH's FLOOD

[Monty]

Back then many nations counted lunar, not solar years.
Genesis 5:32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
so the Bible uses the term years there, not months. You bring up a lot of issues, and I have found it best to stay on one topic at a time. If you'd like, we can discuss how nations back then counted time insofar as I understand . But I believe it's best not to have a contentious argument over this but rather to take one point at a time.

IOW Noah was about 40 years old when his sister gave birth to triplets (Gen 5:32) since lunar cycles of ~29 days are more easily observed than solar cycles of ~365 days. Which is why a week is 7 days or a lunar quarter and not 5 or 10 days as counted using our fingers or toes.

If you believe otherwise, then why did Noah only have sex once with Naamah to celebrate their 500th birthdays?
And why did it take Adam 130 years before first becoming pregnant (Gen 5:1-3)?

 

[YoursTrue]

IOW Noah was about 40 years old when his sister gave birth to triplets (Gen 5:32) since lunar cycles of ~29 days are more easily observed than solar cycles of ~365 days. Which is why a week is 7 days or a lunar quarter and not 5 or 10 days as counted using our fingers or toes.

If you believe otherwise, then why did Noah only have sex once with Naamah to celebrate their 500th birthdays?
And why did it take Adam 130 years before first becoming pregnant (Gen 5:1-3)?

Again, back then there were lunar years. It's not lunar months that are said to be years.

 

[Monty]

Again, back then there were lunar years. It's not lunar months that are said to be years.

Which is why Noah was ~40 years old when his sister Naamah gave birth to triplets (Gen 5:32), and why Methusael was ~80 years old when he drowned (Gen 5:27), and why Adam was about 11 years old when they first became pregnant (Gen 5:1-3).

 

[shunyadragon]

IOW the Orthodox Jewish Bible and the KJV say the flood was only 15 cubits high, and all the land animals died within the flooded area since all the highest hills within the flood zone were covered.
The only version that counts is the Hebrew text, which also says the flood was only 15 cubits high, and presumably as measured on a flood level gauge. flood level gauge - Google Search
Any other interpretation is pure fantasy and totally meaningless with zero credibility.

False, they say the mountains and high hills were covered and if you take into account all the flood text this confirms this.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail, and the mountains were covered.

. . . and the following in the Orthodox Jewish version confirms this, which all you have offered is stonewall denial to justify your agenda.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Orthodox Jewish Bible

19 And the waters rose exceedingly upon ha’aretz; and all the high hills, that were under kol HaShomayim, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise; and the harim were covered.

21 And kol basar perished that moved upon ha’aretz, both of Oph, and of Behemah, and of Beast, and of every Swarming Thing that swarms upon ha’aretz, and kol haadam;

22 All in whose nostrils was the ruach chayyim, of all that was in the dry land, perished.

23 And every living creature was wiped out which was upon the p’nei haadamah, both Adam, and Behemah, and the Remes, and the Oph HaShomayim; and they were wiped out from ha’aretz: and Noach only remained alive, and they that were with him in the tevah (ark).

24 And the waters flooded upon ha’aretz a hundred and fifty days.

I believe ha’aretz refers to the whole earth.

 

[YoursTrue]

Which is why Noah was ~40 years old when his sister Naamah gave birth to triplets (Gen 5:32), and why Methusael was ~80 years old when he drowned (Gen 5:27), and why Adam was about 11 years old when they first became pregnant (Gen 5:1-3).

The Biblical account says Noah had three sons AFTER he was 500 years old. It doesn't say they were triplets.
Genesis 5:32 - After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

 

[Monty]

False, they say the mountains and high hills were covered and if you take into account all the flood text this confirms this.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail, and the mountains were covered.

. . . and the following in the Orthodox Jewish version confirms this, which all you have offered is stonewall denial to justify your agenda.

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Orthodox Jewish Bible

19 And the waters rose exceedingly upon ha’aretz; and all the high hills, that were under kol HaShomayim, were covered.

20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise; and the harim were covered.

21 And kol basar perished that moved upon ha’aretz, both of Oph, and of Behemah, and of Beast, and of every Swarming Thing that swarms upon ha’aretz, and kol haadam;

22 All in whose nostrils was the ruach chayyim, of all that was in the dry land, perished.

23 And every living creature was wiped out which was upon the p’nei haadamah, both Adam, and Behemah, and the Remes, and the Oph HaShomayim; and they were wiped out from ha’aretz: and Noach only remained alive, and they that were with him in the tevah (ark).

24 And the waters flooded upon ha’aretz a hundred and fifty days.

I believe ha’aretz refers to the whole earth.

IOW the KJV and the Orthodox Jewish Bible both say that the flood was only 15 cubits high, and that the highest hills in the flooded area were covered.

 

[Monty]

The Biblical account says Noah had three sons AFTER he was 500 years old. It doesn't say they were triplets.
Genesis 5:32 - After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

IOW Noah was about 40 years old when his sister Naamah became pregnant (Gen 5:32).

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes the NIV etc are just scams. And don't change the fact that the Jewish Orthodox Bible and Youngs Literal Translation and the KJV clearly say that the flood height was only 15 cubits, and DO NOT say that the mountains or high hills were covered by 15 cubits.

You asked me for a Jewish interpretation of Flood Genesis, Actually, contem[pray Jews do not try to specifically interpret Flood Genesis. They most often conclude it simply did not happen and the story is from the older Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh. Judaism has changed significantly since the Jewish Enlightenment and the rise of Reform Judaism. The following is a common understanding from the perspective of Reform Judaism.

The Torah's Version of the Flood Story - TheTorah.com

When I read the story of Noah, I see not just ‘words from the sky’ but a distillation of millennia of human experience, of traumatic events that have forged us into what we are and have become etched into human consciousness. | Dr. Rabbi Norman Solomon

www.thetorah.com

Evidence for the Biblical Flood?
In 1929, while excavating Abraham’s native city of Ur, the great British archaeologist Leonard Woolley (1880-1960) observed a thick layer of sediment covering the valley. Not a man to shy away from publicity, Woolley telegraphed messages to the leading newspapers in Britain and the USA announcing that he had found proof of Noah’s Flood. But he was a scholar too, so when he compiled his report, Ur of the Chaldees: A Record of Seven Years of Excavation (London: Ernest Benn Ltd., 1935), he acknowledged that what he had discovered was evidence not of a universal deluge, but of a disaster confined to the lower Tigris/Euphrates valley.

Knowledge of the ancient world has increased exponentially since Woolley’s time. If you think Noah’s Flood was a universal deluge rising to 15 cubits above Mt Ararat in 2100 BCE (1656 years after Creation), give or take or few years, forget it, it never happened; there is overwhelming evidence that most life around the planet continued on its normal course.

More to follow . . .

 

[shunyadragon]

IOW the KJV and the Orthodox Jewish Bible both say that the flood was only 15 cubits high, and that the highest hills in the flooded area were covered.

No, they do not. The referenced Jewish Orthodox Scripture is clear the whole world was flooded including Mount Ariat where the Arc landed. See post #1848 for a Jewish interpretation.

 

[Monty]

No, they do not. The referenced Jewish Orthodox Scripture is clear the whole world was flooded including Mount Ariat where the Arc landed. See post #1848 for a Jewish interpretation.

That's just your personal opinion. The Hebrew text, however, says that the flood was only 15 cubits high, which is why it had no effect on the olive tree (Gen 8) since it was growing outside the flooded area, and refers to the mountains of Ararat where ever Ararat is, and not to Mt Ararat which has been more recently named. The story is still based on regular floods which drown people and animals, and the message is to be prepared..

 

[Monty]

You asked me for a Jewish interpretation of Flood Genesis, Actually, contem[pray Jews do not try to specifically interpret Flood Genesis. They most often conclude it simply did not happen and the story is from the older Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh. Judaism has changed significantly since the Jewish Enlightenment and the rise of Reform Judaism. The following is a common understanding from the perspective of Reform Judaism.

The Torah's Version of the Flood Story - TheTorah.com

When I read the story of Noah, I see not just ‘words from the sky’ but a distillation of millennia of human experience, of traumatic events that have forged us into what we are and have become etched into human consciousness. | Dr. Rabbi Norman Solomon

www.thetorah.com

Evidence for the Biblical Flood?
In 1929, while excavating Abraham’s native city of Ur, the great British archaeologist Leonard Woolley (1880-1960) observed a thick layer of sediment covering the valley. Not a man to shy away from publicity, Woolley telegraphed messages to the leading newspapers in Britain and the USA announcing that he had found proof of Noah’s Flood. But he was a scholar too, so when he compiled his report, Ur of the Chaldees: A Record of Seven Years of Excavation (London: Ernest Benn Ltd., 1935), he acknowledged that what he had discovered was evidence not of a universal deluge, but of a disaster confined to the lower Tigris/Euphrates valley.

Knowledge of the ancient world has increased exponentially since Woolley’s time. If you think Noah’s Flood was a universal deluge rising to 15 cubits above Mt Ararat in 2100 BCE (1656 years after Creation), give or take or few years, forget it, it never happened; there is overwhelming evidence that most life around the planet continued on its normal course.

More to follow . . .

The bible, however, says the flood was only 15 cubits high, and doesn't say that Mt Ararat or Mt Everest were covered by 15 cubits. Nor does it say how high the highest hills in the flooded area were when they were covered including the "mountains of Ararat", except that they were obviously less than 15 cubits higher than the normal river level.

 

[shunyadragon]

The bible, however, says the flood was only 15 cubits high, and doesn't say that Mt Ararat or Mt Everest were covered by 15 cubits. Nor does it say how high the highest hills in the flooded area were when they were covered including the "mountains of Ararat", except that they were obviously less than 15 cubits higher than the normal river level.

As cited and my Jewish source agrees the text in any translation is very clear and the world including the mountains was covered by 15 cubits. The Jewish references in general conclude it never happened and/or it represented a retelling of the more ancient Sumerian record of the Tigris Euphrates river flood. The sources do also give symbolic, spiritual, and deep meaning to the text concerning God's relationship with humanity.

You are stonewalling and ignoring the Jewish text and a Jewish interpretation that agrees with me.

 

[Kenny]

The bible, however, says the flood was only 15 cubits high, and doesn't say that Mt Ararat or Mt Everest were covered by 15 cubits. Nor does it say how high the highest hills in the flooded area were when they were covered including the "mountains of Ararat", except that they were obviously less than 15 cubits higher than the normal river level.

Good point.

 

[shunyadragon]

Good point.

Though not true. I gave the Jewish Orthodox text and a reference from a Jewish source that yes, the text states the mountains were covered by 15 cubits referencing Mount Ariat. The Jewish source gave a contemporary Jewish understanding of the Genesis flood.

The Torah's Version of the Flood Story - TheTorah.com​

When I read the story of Noah, I see not just ‘words from the sky’ but a distillation of millennia of human experience, of traumatic events that have forged us into what we are and have become etched into human consciousness. | Dr. Rabbi Norman Solomon

www.thetorah.com
Evidence for the Biblical Flood?
In 1929, while excavating Abraham’s native city of Ur, the great British archaeologist Leonard Woolley (1880-1960) observed a thick layer of sediment covering the valley. Not a man to shy away from publicity, Woolley telegraphed messages to the leading newspapers in Britain and the USA announcing that he had found proof of Noah’s Flood. But he was a scholar too, so when he compiled his report, Ur of the Chaldees: A Record of Seven Years of Excavation (London: Ernest Benn Ltd., 1935), he acknowledged that what he had discovered was evidence not of a universal deluge, but of a disaster confined to the lower Tigris/Euphrates valley.

Knowledge of the ancient world has increased exponentially since Woolley’s time. If you think Noah’s Flood was a universal deluge rising to 15 cubits above Mt Ararat in 2100 BCE (1656 years after Creation), give or take or few years, forget it, it never happened; there is overwhelming evidence that most life around the planet continued on its normal course.

 

[shunyadragon]

That's just your personal opinion. The Hebrew text, however, says that the flood was only 15 cubits high, which is why it had no effect on the olive tree (Gen 8) since it was growing outside the flooded area, and refers to the mountains of Ararat where ever Ararat is, and not to Mt Ararat which has been more recently named. The story is still based on regular floods which drown people and animals, and the message is to be prepared..

No, I gave the Jewish Orthodox text and a reference as to what Jews believe and you decided to ignore the reference.

I consider the Jewish reference citing a Rabbi more reliable than your stonewall approach.

You at one point said, "Ask a Rabbi."

 

[Monty]

As cited and my Jewish source agrees the text in any translation is very clear and the world including the mountains was covered by 15 cubits. The Jewish references in general conclude it never happened and/or it represented a retelling of the more ancient Sumerian record of the Tigris Euphrates river flood. The sources do also give symbolic, spiritual, and deep meaning to the text concerning God's relationship with humanity.

You are stonewalling and ignoring the Jewish text and a Jewish interpretation that agrees with me.

Even though the stories in the NIV and other versions are pure fantasy, the story in other versions such as the KJV and OJB and YLT simply describe a local river flood which was only 15 cubits high and covered the highest rises in the flooded area and drained away like every other similar flood, and DO NOT say that the highest hills in the flooded area were covered by 15 cubits.

 

[Monty]

No, I gave the Jewish Orthodox text and a reference as to what Jews believe and you decided to ignore the reference.

Still doesn't change the fact that the KJV and OJB and YLT say that the flood height was only 15 cubits and don't meaninglessly say that the highest mountains were covered by 15 cubits like the NIV etc. And they do not refer to Mt Ararat but only to the mountains of Ararat, wherever they are and presumably on the Mesopotamian flood plain.

 

[shunyadragon]

Still doesn't change the fact that the KJV and OJB and YLT say that the flood height was only 15 cubits and don't meaninglessly say that the highest mountains were covered by 15 cubits like the NIV etc. And they do not refer to Mt Ararat but only to the mountains of Ararat, wherever they are and presumably on the Mesopotamian flood plain.

No, I gave the Jewish Orthodox text and a reference as to what Jews believe and you decided to ignore the reference. ALL the translations say the same thing the mountains were covered by 15 cubits, The Rabbi agrees,

 

[Subduction Zone]

@Monty People during Noah's time lived much, much longer than we do. The Bible says that only Noah, his wife, three sons and their wives survived the Flood. It was an interesting read, though, as I looked at the genealogy.

No, that is just what the Bible says. The evidence indicates that the opposite was true.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Good point.

What!? How so? Please be specific.