Evidence that Ivrim, Benei Yisrael, Yehudim, and Modern day Jews do not descend from Yadavas farmers

[Ehav4Ever]

But you don’t know for certain where Abram was born ?

Sorry, I missed one thing that I didn't mention. We Jews do actually know where Avram ben-Terahh was born. There are a number of Jewish sources that describe this.

 

[GoodAttention]

Sorry, I missed one thing that I didn't mention. We Jews do actually know where Avram ben-Terahh was born. There are a number of Jewish sources that describe this.

Is it the same place Terah the idol maker was also born?

Can you describe the birthplace of Avram ben-Terahh?

GPS coordinates not necessary.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Where Ehav4ever, not when.

You, yourself, have an understanding of when Abram was born. You are also given an understanding of where Abram was born from Torah itself.

Yes, I responded to the where question in a second post, but my first post also addressed the where.

Actually, the Jewish knowledge of where the Jewish ancestor known as Avraham ben-Terahh was born comes from Jewish sources outside of the Torah, not directly from the Torah. Again, before there was a written Torah there was already an oral Torah / oral history of where the ancestors of we modern day Jews came from. I.e.

1. before we were called Jews, in English, we were called Yehudim in our own language.
2. Yehudim, in our own language, were a subset of a people known as Yisrael / Benei Yisrael / Yisraelim in our own language.
3. Yisrael / Benei Yisrael / Yisraelim descend from a people known as Ivrim / Ivriyim.
4. The Ivrim / Ivriyim were either a) descended from Avraham ben-Terahh or b) people who associated / lived as a part of the culture of Avraham ben-Terahh.
5. All of this is described, in written from, from documents that have been the possesion of Jews, and our ancestors, in the languages known as Ivrith and Yehudith.

This has to be distinquished from the Christianized conept of Abraham.

 

[GoodAttention]

Yes, I responded to the where question in a second post, but my first post also addressed the where.

Actually, the Jewish knowledge of where the Jewish ancestor known as Avraham ben-Terahh was born comes from Jewish sources outside of the Torah, not directly from the Torah. Again, before there was a written Torah there was already an oral Torah / oral history of where the ancestors of we modern day Jews came from. I.e.

1. before we were called Jews, in English, we were called Yehudim in our own language.
2. Yehudim, in our own language, were a subset of a people known as Yisrael / Benei Yisrael / Yisraelim in our own language.
3. Yisrael / Benei Yisrael / Yisraelim descend from a people known as Ivrim / Ivriyim.
4. The Ivrim / Ivriyim were either a) descended from Avraham ben-Terahh or b) people who associated / lived as a part of the culture of Avraham ben-Terahh.
5. All of this is described, in written from, from documents that have been the possesion of Jews, and our ancestors, in the languages known as Ivrith and Yehudith.

This has to be distinquished from the Christianized conept of Abraham.

View attachment 96466

As interesting as it always is to have a Jewish history lesson, I am kindly requesting of you a more important geography lesson.

To remind you again as below.

Sorry, I missed one thing that I didn't mention. We Jews do actually know where Avram ben-Terahh was born. There are a number of Jewish sources that describe this.

Is it the same place Terah the idol maker was also born?

Can you describe the birthplace of Avram ben-Terahh?

GPS coordinates not necessary.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Is it the same place Terah the idol maker was also born?

Can you describe the birthplace of Avram ben-Terahh?

GPS coordinates not necessary.

Most Jewish sources state that Avraham ben-Terahh was born in a place that was once called Aram Nahariyim. Rabbi Mosheh ben-Nachman stated it was Hharan and that Avraham's family moved.

Essentially, somewhere in the yellowish area.

To be more specific, some say in the red circile area and some say more towards the second circle area.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

As interesting as it always is to have a Jewish history lesson, I am kindly requesting of you a more important geography lesson.

I responded in the post right after that post.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

GPS coordinates not necessary.

Essentially, if you look at a modern map of Iraq to Syria. That is the region he was born in.

 

[GoodAttention]

I responded in the post right after that post.

What do you think the meaning of Ur Kasdim is?

Where do you think Ur Kasdim is?

What do the Jewish sources say specifically about Ur Kasdim?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

What do you think the meaning of Ur Kasdim is?

Where do you think Ur Kasdim is?

What do the Jewish sources say specifically about Ur Kasdim?

According to some Jewish sources Ur Kasdim means "Ur of the Kasdim." Meaning, the Kasdim were a people. There are some Jewish sources that associate it with some the city of Ur in southern Iraq. There are some sources that associate it both with the location of Ur in southern Iraq as well as a region furthern north in Iraq where there was a particular type settlement associated with the kingdom of Mesopotamia at that time.

 

[GoodAttention]

According to some Jewish sources Ur Kasdim means "Ur of the Kasdim." Meaning, the Kasdim were a people. There are some Jewish sources that associate it with some the city of Ur in southern Iraq. There are some sources that associate it both with the location of Ur in southern Iraq as well as a region furthern north in Iraq where there was a particular type settlement associated with the kingdom of Mesopotamia at that time.

Is Ur a Semetic or non-Semetic word? Is Kasdim a Semetic or non-Semetic word?

Are there examples of words in the Torah that are derived from other languages, specifically non-Semetic ones?

For your interest, Ur Kasdim translated into Tamil means "Land of Difficulty", or "Land of Trouble", meaning the Kasdim, or the people who became or were referred to as Kasdim (including Nahor's son) were people who were, essentially, "trouble". I have not read through the Hebrew scriptures far enough but I believe it is a fitting title for the Kasdim later on.

Did Terah leave Ur Kasdim for the simple reason that it was a "Ur Kasdim"?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Is Ur a Semetic or non-Semetic word? Is Kasdim a Semetic or non-Semetic word?

Are there examples of words in the Torah that are derived from other languages, specifically non-Semetic ones?

For your interest, Ur Kasdim translated into Tamil means "Land of Difficulty", or "Land of Trouble", meaning the Kasdim, or the people who became or were referred to as Kasdim (including Nahor's son) were people who were, essentially, "trouble". I have not read through the Hebrew scriptures far enough but I believe it is a fitting title for the Kasdim later on.

Did Terah leave Ur Kasdim for the simple reason that it was a "Ur Kasdim"?

From a modern perspective of what is Semetic, Ur is Semetic. At the same time, in Hebrew, Ur is describing a culture that predated Ivri / Yisraeli / Yehudi / Jewish culture. Thus, the people of Ur may not have considered themselves "Semetic" or even anything beyond their location at all.

There is a concept that the words in the Torah are a seperate language that Hashem used to create reality. The obvious question would be, what does that mean? Does it mean that the actual language, letters, etc. of Hebrew were used - there are some who say that. There are some who take that to not mean the actual language but instead the concepts of the Torah that Hashem put in place are what is meant.

On the other side, there is an idea that the Torah has the language in it that Hashem wanted to convey to the Israeli / Jewish people in the language that was common to them. Thus, you could say the same words, maybe with some dialect differences, but because Israelis / Jews have been living the concepts of the text in the way they are written (also from oral instruction) it would not be understood by a culture from the same time period. For example, someone speaking Akkadian may have been able to understand some spoken elements of the Torah - BUT if a group of Jews are talking about how one practically does the Torah the Akkadian would be lost.

For example, I have spoken to Arabs here in Israel in Hebrew and they understand the Hebrew I am speaking but the minute I start using Jewish idioms and Tanakh style Hebrew they don't understand what I mean.

According to Jewish sources, Terahh left Ur Kasdim because Avraham left Ur Kasdim. I.e. when certain events transpired and Avraham left, Terahh also chose to leave and relocate. Of course accoding to the Torah, Terahh didn't follow the entire path that Avraham took on which led Avraham to move to Kanaan and other locations.

 

[GoodAttention]

From a modern perspective of what is Semetic, Ur is Semetic. At the same time, in Hebrew, Ur is describing a culture that predated Ivri / Yisraeli / Yehudi / Jewish culture. Thus, the people of Ur may not have considered themselves "Semetic" or even anything beyond their location at all.

There is a concept that the words in the Torah are a seperate language that Hashem used to create reality. The obvious question would be, what does that mean? Does it mean that the actual language, letters, etc. of Hebrew were used - there are some who say that. There are some who take that to not mean the actual language but instead the concepts of the Torah that Hashem put in place are what is meant.

On the other side, there is an idea that the Torah has the language in it that Hashem wanted to convey to the Israeli / Jewish people in the language that was common to them. Thus, you could say the same words, maybe with some dialect differences, but because Israelis / Jews have living the concepts of the text in the way they are written (also from oral instruction) it would not be understood by a culture from the same time period. For example, someone speaking Akkadian may have been to understand some spoken elements of the Torah - BUT if a group of Jews are talking about how one practically does the Torah the Akkadian would be lost.

For example, I have spoken to Arabs here in Israel in Hebrew and they understand the Hebrew I am speaking but the minute I start using Jewish idioms and Tanakh style Hebrew they don't understand what I mean.

According to Jewish sources, Terahh left Ur Kasdim because Avraham left Ur Kasdim. I.e. when certain events transpired and Avraham left, Terahh also chose to leave and relocate. Of course accoding to the Torah, Terahh didn't follow the entire path that Avraham took on which led Avraham to move to Kanaan and other locations.

I do not intend to put you on the spot or push you into a corner, however I will admit I do take solace in what I see, read, and comprehend, correctly or incorrectly, righteously or otherwise. Perhaps what Hashem created was to be shared, not claimed.

Here is another for your interest should you have it, relating to the Nephilim, or Naphal.

ஞாபகம்​

ñāpakam
s. Memory, knowledge. 2. Reminiscence, intellect, reason, அறிவு. (c.) W. p. 355. GNAPAKA. 3. Precious thing; objects worthy of investigation and know ledge; desiderata in science, religion, &c., subjects purely intellectual, requiring deep research and affording gratification,

ஆள்​

āḷ
n. ஆள்-. [K. M. Tu. āl.] 1.Man; ஆண்மகன் நல்லா ளிலாத குடி (குறள், 1030).2. Man of capacity, capable man, manly person;சமர்த்தன். ஆளல்லான் செல்வக் குடியுட் பிறத்தலும்(திரிக. 7). 3. Warrior;


Or perhaps a word that describes the world

உலகம்​

ulakam
--உலகு, (Sans. லோக.) World, universe, உலோகம். 2. The earth, பூமி. 3. Country, territory, நாடு. 4. Region, திசை. 5. (fig.) The inhabitants of the world, உலகத்தார். 6. The sky, etherial regions, ஆகாயம். 7. The learned, the good, சான்றோர், 8. (fig.) Created beings or existences, everything except the Supreme.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I do not intend to put you on the spot or push you into a corner, however I will admit I do take solace in what I see, read, and comprehend, correctly or incorrectly, righteously or otherwise. Perhaps what Hashem created was to be shared, not claimed.

We Jews don't own or posses any aspect of Hashem. The world that Hashem created is the possesion of all of humanity and not just us Jews. In terms of the written and oral Torah, in Hebrew, the text itself claims that Hashem gave that to Israelis / Jews. It is not for us Jews to try and tell the world how they should interpretation their translations of the text.

Yet, if one looks through history to determine where was the text found for thousands of years the only place one will find the this information within Israeli / Jewish communities. Also, if the text is describing events in Israeli / Jewish history and those same events were not known to non-Middle Eastern cultures until they came across translations of Jewish texts that says something. Of course the texts I am talking about are the following:

 

[Aupmanyav]

Om nama shiviya

Being my own guru, I contemplate an older verse, said over seven syllables.

Om namah Sivan Aiyah

Who was Advainta? What is it after? Why does it matter? Aupmanyav provides answer.

OM Namah Shivaya - Om is a later addition, nm svy, this is the five letter mantra.
No problem with 'Om Namah Sivan Aiyah', says the same thing.
Advaita and not Advainta. This is a non-dual philosophy (not two or many - God, humans, animals, vegetation, non-living things)
All same, just the substrate of the universe, the bed-rock, the one thing which constitutes all, Brahman.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I will start a GoFundModiYogi page shortly

They do not need it. They can live just as comfortably in a Himalayan cave. That is what Modi is going to do once he is not the Prime Minister of India.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is nice to know that Avram had a field, name 1000 years after he existed, but what was being grown here?
Could it have been feedstock for sheep, goats, or cattle?

Or perhaps a stone quarry in a field owned by Avram for a pharaoh's pyramid. I do not know the context of the hieroglyphic inscription.
Books say that Avram was well-provided by the Pharaoh.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Or perhaps a stone quarry in a field owned by Avram for a pharaoh's pyramid. I do not know the context of the hieroglyphic inscription.
Books say that Avram was well-provided by the Pharaoh.

From a strictly archeological perspective, it only means that someone named Avram in Canaan at some point that was known by the Egyptians either a) had field named after him or b) that the particular area was known to be the territory of someone named Avram.

Given that the Egyptians who made the inscription, culturally, no longer exist to explain the context beyond a list of areas they conquered in an area where ancient Israelis lived - that is as far as one can take the inscription on its own.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Here is another for your interest should you have it, relating to the Nephilim, or Naphal.

ஞாபகம்​

ñāpakam
s. Memory, knowledge. 2. Reminiscence, intellect, reason, அறிவு. (c.) W. p. 355. GNAPAKA. 3. Precious thing; objects worthy of investigation and know ledge; desiderata in science, religion, &c., subjects purely intellectual, requiring deep research and affording gratification,

ஆள்​

āḷ
n. ஆள்-. [K. M. Tu. āl.] 1.Man; ஆண்மகன் நல்லா ளிலாத குடி (குறள், 1030).2. Man of capacity, capable man, manly person;சமர்த்தன். ஆளல்லான் செல்வக் குடியுட் பிறத்தலும்(திரிக. 7). 3. Warrior;


Or perhaps a word that describes the world

உலகம்​

ulakam
--உலகு, (Sans. லோக.) World, universe, உலோகம். 2. The earth, பூமி. 3. Country, territory, நாடு. 4. Region, திசை. 5. (fig.) The inhabitants of the world, உலகத்தார். 6. The sky, etherial regions, ஆகாயம். 7. The learned, the good, சான்றோர், 8. (fig.) Created beings or existences, everything except the Supreme.

Be aware that according to most Jewish sources the Nephilim were normal human beings who were simply not doing the 7 Noachide laws. Because their fathers were leaders of various communities who did not continue to follow the Noachide laws, the Hebrew Torah text calls them "those who fall." You can even make a connection to the idea that they are, "those who are failing in their responsibilities."

 

[GoodAttention]

OM Namah Shivaya - Om is a later addition, nm svy, this is the five letter mantra.
No problem with 'Om Namah Sivan Aiyah', says the same thing.
Advaita and not Advainta. This is a non-dual philosophy (not two or many - God, humans, animals, vegetation, non-living things)
All same, just the substrate of the universe, the bed-rock, the one thing which constitutes all, Brahman.

View attachment 96471

It is of interest to me that Om has common use in Tamil language, to mean yes. I think you know this.

Regarding namah to describe "our"

நம்​

nm

[genitive of நாம்.] Our. 2. Particle of declension used with எல்லாம், as எல்லாநம் மையுங்கண்டான், he saw us all.--Note, எல்லாம் is considered as the first person plu, and நம் in this connexion is expletive.

But of course we can contemplate further in Tamil, and namah can also be nampu

நம்பு​

nampu 3. nampu- நம்பு believe, trust; rely on



Yes. Our benevolent Father.

Yes. I believe in the benevolent Father.

ஐயா​

aiyā n. ஐயன். Father; தகப்பன்.Colloq.

Let us not get too carried away with Aiyah, lest we start to think it resemebles yahAI.

 

[GoodAttention]

We Jews don't own or posses any aspect of Hashem. The world that Hashem created is the possesion of all of humanity and not just us Jews. In terms of the written and oral Torah, in Hebrew, the text itself claims that Hashem gave that to Israelis / Jews. It is not for us Jews to try and tell the world how they should interpretation their translations of the text.

Yet, if one looks through history to determine where was the text found for thousands of years the only place one will find the this information within Israeli / Jewish communities. Also, if the text is describing events in Israeli / Jewish history and those same events were not known to non-Middle Eastern cultures until they came across translations of Jewish texts that says something. Of course the texts I am talking about are the following:

View attachment 96470

Please tell me more about Devarim?

தேவாரம்​

tēvāram n. cf. dēvārha. 1.[M. tēvāra.] Worship; பூசனை உயர்தவ மூவாயிரவர்க டாவாமறையொடு தேவாரக் கைப்பற்றியபணிமுற்ற (கோயிற்பு. திருவிழா 27). 2. Deityworshipped privately in a house; கிருகாராதனக்கடவுள். உம்முடைய தேவாரமோ (ஈடு, 6, 8, 10).

தேவாரம்​

tēvāram n. prob. தே³ + வாரம் A collection of devotional songs in honour of Šiva, composed by Appar, Campantar and Cuntarar, otherwise known as Tamiḻ-vētam;