Evidence that Ivrim, Benei Yisrael, Yehudim, and Modern day Jews do not descend from Yadavas farmers

[Aupmanyav]

Again more Aryans. What does Aryan even mean?

Dear River Sea, you would not be able to understand that.
For others, here is the link: Aryan - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

My comment about BJP was of course part humor, but with every bit of humor there is also an element of truth.
My question to you is, are you in favor of changing the name from India to Bharat? If so, do you believe this is fair for all ethnicities and communities in India?

However the name and concept Sivan came from somewhere, and I do not believe Rudra = Sivan.

There is far more to our (Indus) collective history than meets the eye, and we should do more to explore together rather than separately.

That happened in reply to the opposition parties banding under the name of INDIA (Indian National Developmental Inclusive Alliance).
Political gimmiks. BJP did not start it.
Rudra merged with Sivan just as Vishnu merged with Rama and Krishna. They were side-actors in Vedic pantheon. Assimilation did it.
Sure, but the language is not deciphered, we do not have much to go with. Mohenjodaro skeletons too are unexplained. It was a gradual decline and migration to other places.

ps: Add to my post 199.
Compare Modi and Yogi to Karunanidhis.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But I guess that's derailing your thread so I apologize for asking that question.

Don't worry about derailing the thread. I originally posted it in the Orthodox Judaism DIR. Because Bharat responded there, against the rules, and I in turn responded to him it got moved to the debates section. (I didn't originally know that by responding to him posting against the rules in the Orthodox Judaism DIR the forum moves the thread out of the DIR) Thus, it was derailed a long time ago.

 

[GoodAttention]

That happened in reply to the opposition parties banding under the name of INDIA (Indian National Developmental Inclusive Alliance).
Political gimmiks. BJP did not start it.

Will BJP finish it and rename the country? If so, so be it, one cannot change 4000 year old culture in a day.

Rudra merged with Sivan just as Vishnu merged with Rama and Krishna. They were side-actors in Vedic pantheon. Assimilation did it.

One can acknowledge that Siv-an, or Shiv-un as it would be considered in Sanskrit, becomes the cognate of Vish-nu or Vishnu. I do not know about Rama (Aram), or Krishna being absorbed into Vishnu, but in Tamil Vishnu is called Narayan, or Nar-Aryan, which has an unfortunate translation as "the Aryan wife stealer"...

The irony of course that it is Rama the one who's wife Sita (Sathi) is stolen.

Sure, but the language is not deciphered, we do not have much to go with. Mohenjodaro skeletons too are unexplained. It was a gradual decline and migration to other places.

We will decipher the language, we can already see the Indus Valley Script adhering closer to Tamil than it does to Sanskrit.
The answer is either one, the other, or both. But all considerations must be taken.

ps: Add to my post 199.
Compare Modi and Yogi to Karunanidhis.

No comparison, but Indian politics is too much to handle.

Modi and Yogi charity will be acknowledged on their death beds.

 

[GoodAttention]

Don't worry about derailing the thread. I originally posted it in the Orthodox Judaism DIR. Because Bharat responded there, against the rules, and I in turn responded to him it got moved to the debates section. (I didn't originally know that by responding to him posting against the rules in the Orthodox Judaism DIR the forum moves the thread out of the DIR) Thus, it was derailed a long time ago.

I hope you are finding this slightly more interesting than the "I love Jesus" that usually fills this place...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Will BJP finish it and rename the country? If so, so be it, one cannot change 4000 year old culture in a day.

One can acknowledge that Siv-an, or Shiv-un as it would be considered in Sanskrit, becomes the cognate of Vish-nu or Vishnu. I do not know about Rama (Aram), or Krishna being absorbed into Vishnu, but in Tamil Vishnu is called Narayan, or Nar-Aryan, which has an unfortunate translation as "the Aryan wife stealer"...
The irony of course that it is Rama the one who's wife Sita (Sathi) is stolen.

We will decipher the language, we can already see the Indus Valley Script adhering closer to Tamil than it does to Sanskrit.

No comparison, but Indian politics is too much to handle.
Modi and Yogi charity will be acknowledged on their death beds.

BJP has no intention to change the name. The Constitution says "India, that is, Bharat".
Yeah the Vishishta Advaitins name him as Narayana. The Madhvas, the Vallabhas, the Nimbarkas and the Acintya Bheda-Abheda (Hare-Krishnas) will have none other than Krishna.
You are talking of mythologies. Anything can happen in mythologies, like creation in six days. Nothing historical or scientific there.
No possibility of that at the moment. It needs a bilingual text.
Of course, they are part of history. Neither fans nor enemies will forget them.

 

[GoodAttention]

BJP has no intention to change the name. The Constitution says "India, that is, Bharat".

Nice to know this is the case.

Yeah the Vishishta Advaitins name him as Narayana. The Madhvas, the Vallabhas, the Nimbarkas and the Acintya Bheda-Abheda (Hare-Krishnas) will have none other than Krishna.
You are talking of mythologies. Anything can happen in mythologies, like creation in six days. Nothing historical or scientific there.

Texts are language, and language is culture. I am not implying "this is truth", I only advocating to explore cultural history and belief systems.

No possibility of that at the moment. It needs a bilingual text.

Not even with AI?

Of course, they are part of history. Neither fans nor enemies will forget them.

I also prefer Modi over Italian-mafioso

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I hope you are finding this slightly more interesting than the "I love Jesus" that usually fills this place...

Not as much. This is actually worse. This kind of thread often turns into, "I don't know your language (ancient or modern), I don't actually know the sources for the history in question, BUT I know your language and your culture's history better than you do. With no proof or information that is in any way connected or relevant to the subject, I am an expert in your ancestry and its culture." This meme expresses it best, which is why I originally posted it in a DIR.

 

[GoodAttention]

Not as much. This is actually worse. This kind of thread often turns into, "I don't know your language (ancient or modern), I don't actually know the sources for the history in question, BUT I know your language and your culture's history better than you do. With no proof or information that is in any way connected or relevant to the subject, I am an expert in your ancestry and its culture." This meme expresses it best, which is why I originally posted it in a DIR.

View attachment 96417

Oh dear, what a shame..

I will say that, being a shepherd, it would be of great benefit to also be a farmer or have a good Jewish business connection to a farmer who can supply grain/feed stock.

Un-de-railed for your pleasure!

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Oh dear, what a shame..

I will say that, being a shepherd, it would be of great benefit to also be a farmer or have a good Jewish business connection to a farmer who can supply grain/feed stock.

Un-de-railed for your pleasure!

That isn't the issue. In order for me, for example, to tell you who your ancestors were "especially when you know better than I do" I would need to have a clear path to knowing w/o changing my position and I would have to have evidence that you don't know your own ancestry.

 

[firedragon]

Don't worry about derailing the thread. I originally posted it in the Orthodox Judaism DIR. Because Bharat responded there, against the rules, and I in turn responded to him it got moved to the debates section. (I didn't originally know that by responding to him posting against the rules in the Orthodox Judaism DIR the forum moves the thread out of the DIR) Thus, it was derailed a long time ago.

Haha. All good. Very interesting topic. Me likes.

 

[GoodAttention]

That isn't the issue. In order for me, for example, to tell you who your ancestors were "especially when you know better than I do" I would need to have a clear path to knowing w/o changing my position and I would have to have evidence that you don't know your own ancestry.

But you don’t know for certain where Abram was born ? When you ask Jews they consider it irrelevant anyway, so which is it?

 

[River Sea]

I will say that, being a shepherd, it would be of great benefit to also be a farmer or have a good Jewish business connection to a farmer who can supply grain/feed stock.

I agree about being a shepherd, as David was, and also the great benefit of farming, as I had read during other times.

@Ehav4Ever
To help get your thread back on topic, I'll share shepherds farming.

I actually think both shepherds and farming. Cain showed farming. Pre-Exodus, the gathering straw. Festival Sukkot. Each year the Jews have a festival called Sukkot, which is about their harvest time gathering before Exodus. David was a shepherd way later, after Exodus. I hope that helps explain why I was thinking of farming.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Texts are language, and language is culture. I am not implying "this is truth", I only advocating to explore cultural history and belief systems.
Not even with AI?

One can't be a guru unless one does not bring up something from the sleeve. Venerable Sri Ramanujacharya came up with Narayana. Sankara himself and gurus after him were hesitant Advaitists, giving space to Ishwara, Narayana or Krishna. I am an unhesitant Advaitist, more in line with Buddha, i.e., I reject even the possibility of existence of Ishwara, Narayana and Krishna. I am with Chandogya and Mandukya Upanishad - 'Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma', 'Aham Brahmasmi', 'Tat twam Asi'.
I do not think AI can do that, What I know of AI is that it can compile well what is already known.

 

[Aupmanyav]

See Modi, after 13 years as Chief Minister of Gujarat and 10 as Prime Minister of India, his assets total USD 3.6 million, which also he will give away in charity. See, Yogi, after 19 years as a member of parliament and 7 years as the Chief Minister of the largest state of India, Uttar Pradesh, his assets total USD 1.83 million. Both do not own any house, land or cars anywhere in India or abroad.

A correction. Modi's assets are equivalent to USD 359,524 and not 3.6 million as I had mentioned in the above post. Yogi's assets are equivalent to USD 183,000, and not 1.8 million. I erred by factor of 10, happens when one deals with many zeroes. Modi and Yogi are poorer than me and I am not a millionaire. I am just a middle class person. Modi or Yogi do not have enough money to buy the flat in which I live.

 

[GoodAttention]

One can't be a guru unless one does not bring up something from the sleeve. Venerable Sri Ramanujacharya came up with Narayana. Sankara himself and gurus after him were hesitant Advaitists, giving space to Ishwara, Narayana or Krishna. I am an unhesitant Advaitist, more in line with Buddha, i.e., I reject even the possibility of existence of Ishwara, Narayana and Krishna. I am with Chandogya and Mandukya Upanishad - 'Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma', 'Aham Brahmasmi', 'Tat twam Asi'.
I do not think AI can do that, What I know of AI is that it can compile well what is already known.

Let me share with you my new understanding, it is only since my engagement with this forum, and my thanks to those helpful beings who have provided the spark, yourself included.

Our most basic Saivite prayer/mantra, is said over six syllables.

Om nama shiviya

Being my own guru, I contemplate an older verse, said over seven syllables.

Om namah Sivan Aiyah

Who was Advainta? What is it after? Why does it matter? Aupmanyav provides answer.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But you don’t know for certain where Abram was born ? When you ask Jews they consider it irrelevant anyway, so which is it?

I don't know where my great-great-great Grandfather was born. Yet, I have information that has been passed down through the family tree to give relevant information about my great-great-great Grandfather to know a) he existed and b) the time frame he existed in.

When it comes to Avram / Avraham ben-Terahh we Jews do know his time frame of life, where he lived, the historical context he lived in, and the time frame he lived in.

Because we are not talking about a mythological character with special powers, i.e. he was a normal human being, we can easily say that at some point in the ancestral pool of modern Jews, Karaites, and Samaritans it is quite likely that someone named (אברם - אברהם בן תרח) Avram / Avraham who was the son of someone named Terahh existed and lived. That is not outside of the realm of possibility since we are talking about a regular human being and given that the names Avram and Avraham have been the names for numerous Jews, Karaites, and Samaritans for thousands of years.

Further, here in the Middle East where I live there are a number of other cultures that point to the existance of someone named Avram, who we Jews are ancestrally connected to, having existed in this region. Kind of like the below.

Translation "Field of Avram" from the list of Pharoah Sheshonk I - Wall of Karnak Temple from ~10th cent. BCE.

 

[River Sea]

Dear River Sea, you would not be able to understand that.
For others, here is the link: Aryan - Wikipedia

@Aupmanyav

I will understand

Please explain in detail what I would not understand

 

[GoodAttention]

I don't know when my great-great-great Grandfather was born. Yet, I have information that has been passed down through the family tree to give relevant information about my great-great-great Grandfather to know a) he existed and b) the time frame he existed in.

Where Ehav4ever, not when.

You, yourself, have an understanding of when Abram was born. You are also given an understanding of where Abram was born from Torah itself.

But you don't know for certain where that place is.

When it comes to Avram / Avraham ben-Terahh we Jews do know his time frame of life, where he lived, the historical context he lived in, and the time frame he lived in.

Because we are not talking about a mythological character with special powers, i.e. he was a normal human being, we can easily say that at some point in the ancestral pool of modern Jews, Karaites, and Samaritans it is quite likely that someone named (אברם - אברהם בן תרח) Avram / Avraham who was the son of someone named Terahh existed and lived. That is not outside of the realm of possibility since we are talking about a regular human being and given that the names Avram and Avraham have been the names fo numerous Jews, Karaites, and Samaritans for thousands of years.

Further, here in the Middle East where I live there are a number of other cultures that point to the existance of someone named Avram, who we Jews are ancestrally connected to, having existed in this region. Kind of like the below.

View attachment 96465
Translation "Field of Avram" from the list of Pharoah Sheshonk I - Wall of Karnak Temple from ~10th cent. BCE.

I am not denying existence, I am questioning your understanding, and since we have discussed Terah before I remind you of this.

It is nice to know that Avram had a field, name 1000 years after he existed, but what was being grown here?

Could it have been feedstock for sheep, goats, or cattle?

 

[GoodAttention]

A correction. Modi's assets are equivalent to USD 359,524 and not 3.6 million as I had mentioned in the above post. Yogi's assets are equivalent to USD 183,000, and not 1.8 million. I erred by factor of 10, happens when one deals with many zeroes. Modi and Yogi are poorer than me and I am not a millionaire. I am just a middle class person. Modi or Yogi do not have enough money to buy the flat in which I live.

I will start a GoFundModiYogi page shortly