Evidence that Ivrim, Benei Yisrael, Yehudim, and Modern day Jews do not descend from Yadavas farmers

[Ehav4Ever]

Oh, if only that was true.

I think they do on some levels. Again, they only know the meanings of words and grammer from those who early on recorded it. Thus, when we talk about dead languages we are often talking situations where a) nothing was recorded or b) the record was lost.

 

[Harel13]

I think they do on some levels. Again, they only know the meanings of words and grammer from those who early on recorded it. Thus, when we talk about dead languages we are often talking situations where a) nothing was recorded or b) the record was lost.

I agree that that's the case on some levels. But I'm not sure it's true that "most scholars have to respect the earliest source material". The solution to a text a scholar doesn't like is to date it to a later time than a more preferable text.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I agree that that's the case on some levels. But I'm not sure it's true that "most scholars have to respect the earliest source material". The solution to a text a scholar doesn't like is to date it to a later time than a more preferable text.

What I mean by "source material" is the information that explains the words and the grammer. I.e. no modern lexicon or dictionary would exist if for example the Mishnah or the Talmud didn't exist. If no Jew who knew ancient Hebrew existed then no one would have a reference for the language.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No. She didn't have ot be a part of two communities. In Brooklyn the way it worked back then was that the Beith Din had to include the Cheif Rabbi of Brooklyn because he was on the Israeli Rabbinute's list. The other rabbis could be from Chabad. There are other Chabad's that can do conversions. It is all about who is on the Beith Din.

Very interesting that New York does it different than California. thank you for the clarification

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Further,

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The Persian route is plausible but exodus from india would solve the puzzle much better.
Regarding Canaanite origins of the Jews it would require to show how that gene entered Mesopotamia at 3000.2000 bce. The Bible gives no such indication.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

there is nothing in the Hebrew text that points to Mitzrayim being in India or that the Ivrim originally where all from India.

True. I think it is likely that Mitzraim was reidentified with egypt after the earlier memory of india was lost. The geography very strongly is in favour of india. 1. Yam suf 1 is Indus river. Yam suf 2 is hamun e.mashkel. 2. Sinai is taftan. 3. Kings highway is the bronze age silk road. 4. Yam suf 3 is shart al.arab. so we have geography for india and silence in the Bible.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Also, the Amarna letters did they also mean India when they wrote about mitzrayim being in charge of Canaan?

Amarna is 14c bce after the Hebrews reached israel from india.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

But that was not the point. Again, the first statement I wrote was "Another proof that in Hebrew Mitzrayim is not in India or even near it is the following."

If you and I agree that Mitzrayim is not India, then we can call Hodu the planet Mars. Yet, at the end of the day there is a lot more evidence that most Jews have historically called India Hodu and have never thought that the Tanakh references of Mitzrayim where India.

Very true. But this evidence is from post exilic period. We need to look at pre exilic evidence. You are much more knowledgeable. Ease help me understand how to go about it. Written text please, not video please.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

I'm playing devil's advocate here regarding the meaning of the term Hodu

The term Hodu is not known in the Torah I believe though I may be wrong. This appears in Esther in persia. So india could be known as mitsraim till the exile. Then it was renamed Hodu.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Amarna is 14c bce after the Hebrews reached israel from india.

From Haaretz: Archaeologists Discover Canaanite "Temple of the Rising Sun" Near Jerusalem

Researchers have long known that Canaan came under Egyptian control in the mid 15th century B.C.E. and its hold over the region lasted until the mid-12th century B.C.E. This was the time of the Bronze Age Collapse, when multiple civilizations, including the Hittites in Anatolia and the Myceneans in Greece, rapidly disappeared for reasons still unclear, though climate changes are believed to have played a key role.​

Egypt did survive the ensuing wars and unrest, barely, but withdrew from Canaan around 1150 B.C.E. and its empire never fully recovered. Yet the temple at Azekah reflects strong Egyptian influence even in the waning days of the Bronze Age, Kleiman says.​

​

"We have such a strong Egyptian connection that we can confidently say that Azekah was in direct connection with the Egyptian administration, Egypt was still around," she says.​

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

H-n-d-wꜢ-y - which is not anywhere near mitzrayim in pronuciation/consanants

India was known as Mathura. Same consonants m.t.r asin mitsrayim

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

From Haaretz: Archaeologists Discover Canaanite "Temple of the Rising Sun" Near Jerusalem

Researchers have long known that Canaan came under Egyptian control in the mid 15th century B.C.E. and its hold over the region lasted until the mid-12th century B.C.E. This was the time of the Bronze Age Collapse, when multiple civilizations, including the Hittites in Anatolia and the Myceneans in Greece, rapidly disappeared for reasons still unclear, though climate changes are believed to have played a key role.​

Egypt did survive the ensuing wars and unrest, barely, but withdrew from Canaan around 1150 B.C.E. and its empire never fully recovered. Yet the temple at Azekah reflects strong Egyptian influence even in the waning days of the Bronze Age, Kleiman says.​

​

"We have such a strong Egyptian connection that we can confidently say that Azekah was in direct connection with the Egyptian administration, Egypt was still around," she says.​

I don't see the connection. Please help. Hebrews reached Canaan around 1406 bce. So amarna reference could be to them coming from india.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't see the connection. Please help. Hebrews reached Canaan around 1406 bce. So amarna reference could be to them coming from india.

^ rubbish such as this is, for me, best if simply ignored moving forward

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I have to respost the original information I posted. It got moved to a different thread.

One simple problem with the claim that people who can indentified by the historical terms Ivrim, Benei Yisrael, Yehudim, or Jews should indentified as "Yadava farmers" is the simple problem that early Ivrim never were indentified as being farmers. In the Hebrew Torah on several occasions the early Ivrim identified themselves not as farmers but instead as shepherds. They state the same for their ancestors.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Now, addressing the claim that in Ivrith the word Mitzrayim is not referencing Egypt. See the following.

Wikpedia - Egypt

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Concerning DNA we have the following.

Concerning RM124 the following Wikipedia on Hplogroup R-M124 addresses how this exists in a minority of Ashkenazi Jewish who were tested.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Very interesting that New York does it different than California. thank you for the clarification

It could be that the rabbis there simply aren't on the list of the Rabbinute and therefore if at least one of them was, they would be able to do conversions. I don't have any experience with Chabad in California so I don't know.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

, so she was definitely motivated. It was really awesome that she was open to what you said.

She was very motivated. The problem was that she intially fell in with some of the wrong people who misinformed her. What was also interesting about her case was that when the conversation we had took place she was a member of a "Black Israelite/Black Jews" community Queens who were connected to the movement that W.A. Matthews started. The significance there that many of the leaders of that group have a) grandparents who converted, b) parents who converted, or c) they themselves converted. Most of the regular rank and file had not converted due to hopping from one thing to another trying to find thier indentity. I.e. someone who lets say started out Christian, moved to Nation of Islam, or Moor Science Temple, Conscious Movement, Kemenitic types, etc.

I think because she landed in that kind of place it caused her to be more open minded, even though our original discussion was a very tough one. What may have won her over is when I asked her who was the last person in her family to keep Torah. She didn't have an answer, so I told her that if she is in this situaiton it is either because Hashem allowed her be in situation (of not being Jewish / recognized as being Jewish) or one or more of her ancestors did it. She would have to investigate which one. I then suggested that she speak to a rabbi about that reality and that may have been what got her. So, years after that discussion when I found out she was meeting with a rabbi I know from Chabad I was both shocked and overjoyed to hear that.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I have not had similar experiences. I keep running into people's Confirmation Bias ALL THE TIME. It's just part of human DNA that when our opinion has been formed, we literally are unable to hear evidence to the contrary. I realize it is not 100% of humans -- there really are those with enough empathy that they can hear other views. So I know that open minded people exist, I just haven't run into them.

When it comes to certain types one has to be careful. There was once an incident in NYC where an Ethiopian Israeli girl was beat up by a group of Hebrew Israelites who were preaching in Times Square. She didn't understand the dynamic of that particular group and she stated something they didn't like they hit her.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When it comes to certain types one has to be careful. There was once an incident in NYC where an Ethiopian Israeli girl was beat up by a group of Hebrew Israelites who were preaching in Times Square. She didn't understand the dynamic of that particular group and she stated something they didn't like they hit her.

How awful. I hope they were charged with a hate crime.