Evidence

[RestlessSoul]

When did atheists claim that there was no God?

That’s pretty much what atheism is, isn’t it? The belief that there is no God?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Where I’m standing is facts, reason, objectivity, science, tests in reality, and self-awareness. Your unwarranted bias must stand opposed to these for some reason..

..but you do choose to "stand there", do you not?

Both you and I know that belief in God has little to do with empirical evidence .. so why harp on about it all the time?

 

[F1fan]

..but you do choose to "stand there", do you not?

The other option, ignorance and faith, isn’t an option for me. Facts and reasoning is far more reliable and valid, as I have an interest in what is true.

Both you and I know that belief in God has little to do with empirical evidence .. so why harp on about it all the time?

A fact that escapes most believers, especially those who engage in debates. Religious belief isn’t truth as you admit no means to verify the concepts.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That’s pretty much what atheism is, isn’t it? The belief that there is no God?

Nope. It is a lack of belief in a God. That is not the same thing at all.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Religious belief isn’t truth as you admit no means to verify the concepts..

No empirical means .. but is that the only way of understanding everything there is to know about life?
No, of course not.

You know a lot about psychology, and while the scientific method can be applied in some circumstances, the field is by NO MEANS dependent on it. Many theories exist, and having a broad knowledge of the subject can give us some insight.

Religion is no different in that respect.
..are you sure that it isn't just a "cover" .. something to cling to, in order to be able to dismiss it, with "good reason"?

 

[wandering peacefully]

You say this only because you have never felt the exhilaration which comes when you lift your spirit to the light and declare, with complete conviction, "I believe".

Not true. A good amount of atheists have felt the exact same emotions when they were previously believers in God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You have evidence that will meet my criteria?

I have journeyed and found God. It is for each to journey on his/her path haply they too may find Him. I did my search but I cannot do others search for them. Whether people find or don’t find God will depend solely on their own efforts.

I am absolutely 100% certain without doubt about my discovery. I am in no need of further evidence or proof as I know what I found but it’s up to each to search or not or deny as they wish. It’s their loss or gain not mine.

Meditation and prayer and reflecting on the Words of the Great Manifestations are very important but I cannot deliver God to anyone’s doorstep. Effort, sincere effort must be made or otherwise one can just go through life forever demanding proof when the only proof is given to those who search for it.

It’s perfectly ok to believe God is a myth or a superstitious Being created by man’s imagination. But for myself I ‘know with absolute certainty’ that God exists as I’ve done my search.

Anyway Happy New Year 2023. I wish you all the best and I really respect you and love reading your posts and I learn a lot from you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No empirical means .. but is that the only way of understanding everything there is to know about life?
No, of course not.

You know a lot about psychology, and while the scientific method can be applied in some circumstances, the field is by NO MEANS dependent on it. Many theories exist, and having a broad knowledge of the subject can give us some insight.

Religion is no different in that respect.
..are you sure that it isn't just a "cover" .. something to cling to, in order to be able to dismiss it, with "good reason"?

One may try to logically argue for a God, but it was the OP that claimed to have evidence. We are simply asking " Where is it?"

 

[CG Didymus]

I get that that's frustrating, but we simply can't tell the difference between a true unfalsifiable claim and a false one. It's not justified to assume that our unfalsifiable beliefs are correct.

And that is what the various religious beliefs are doing. Each gives their proofs and evidence for a God. But the God they define isn't necessarily the same as the God defined by some other religion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have journeyed and found God. It is for each to journey on his/her path haply they too may find Him. I did my search but I cannot do others search for them. Whether people find or don’t find God will depend solely on their own efforts.

I am absolutely 100% certain without doubt about my discovery. I am in no need of further evidence or proof as I know what I found but it’s up to each to search or not or deny as they wish. It’s their loss or gain not mine.

Meditation and prayer and reflecting on the Words of the Great Manifestations are very important but I cannot deliver God to anyone’s doorstep. Effort, sincere effort must be made or otherwise one can just go through life forever demanding proof when the only proof is given to those who search for it.

It’s perfectly ok to believe God is a myth or a superstitious Being created by man’s imagination. But for myself I ‘know with absolute certainty’ that God exists as I’ve done my search.

Anyway Happy New Year 2023. I wish you all the best and I really respect you and love reading your posts and I learn a lot from you.

People can be convinced of all sorts of things. It does not mean that they are necessarily right or that they even have reliable evidence for that belief. A person may truly believe that God spoke to them himself. So you may know for yourself, but there is also a very good possibility that you are mistaken.

This is why reliable evidence is needed to convince anyone else or for someone to even claim that one has a rational belief.

 

[F1fan]

No empirical means .. but is that the only way of understanding everything there is to know about life?
No, of course not.

What else? Make sure it assures objectivity.

You know a lot about psychology, and while the scientific method can be applied in some circumstances, the field is by NO MEANS dependent on it.

What do you mean?

Religion is no different in that respect.
..are you sure that it isn't just a "cover" .. something to cling to, in order to be able to dismiss it, with "good reason"?

What do you mean?

 

[CG Didymus]

I think it does bother you. You have a pattern of aggressive posting about your beliefs, which to my mind are little more than proselytizing since you don't debate, but then you get frustrated dealing with critique and you disappear for a while. Then you come back, rinse, repeat. I don't understand why you think you won't attract critique when you post unverifiable claims. I suspect you are using propaganda tactics, that if you keep repeating something untrue or unverifiable other s will eventually think it's true. I can't think of any other reason you behave as you do.

How many times have we heard these same "proofs" and "evidence". Threads that go on for months. All the Baha'is have is... "Baha'u'llah is the proof." Proof of what? That he claims to be the return of Christ? Okay, what was supposed to happen when Christ returned? Did it happen? No. But that doesn't matter to Baha'is, because they have a "symbolic" interpretation that can and does make everything fit into what the prophecies of any and all religions said about the end times.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What do you mean?

Psychology is the scientific study of mind and behavior. Psychology includes the study of conscious and unconscious phenomena, including feelings and thoughts. It is an academic discipline of immense scope, crossing the boundaries between the natural and social sciences.
Psychology - Wikipedia

"Immense scope" ..

• 4 Major schools of thought
  • 4.1 Biological
  • 4.2 Behaviorist
  • 4.3 Cognitive
  • 4.4 Social
  • 4.5 Psychoanalytic
  • 4.6 Existential-humanistic

What do you mean?

Religion is not dependent on empirical proof .. it relies on theological theory and conclusion.
..much like theories in psychology, for example.

 

[ChristineM]

I have journeyed and found God. It is for each to journey on his/her path haply they too may find Him. I did my search but I cannot do others search for them. Whether people find or don’t find God will depend solely on their own efforts.

I am absolutely 100% certain without doubt about my discovery. I am in no need of further evidence or proof as I know what I found but it’s up to each to search or not or deny as they wish. It’s their loss or gain not mine.

Meditation and prayer and reflecting on the Words of the Great Manifestations are very important but I cannot deliver God to anyone’s doorstep. Effort, sincere effort must be made or otherwise one can just go through life forever demanding proof when the only proof is given to those who search for it.

It’s perfectly ok to believe God is a myth or a superstitious Being created by man’s imagination. But for myself I ‘know with absolute certainty’ that God exists as I’ve done my search.

Anyway Happy New Year 2023. I wish you all the best and I really respect you and love reading your posts and I learn a lot from you.

So, no evidence but bucket loads of faith.

And bonne année to you and yours, i hope you have a great 2023

 

[CG Didymus]

I've seen the same debate strategy used by evangelical Christians and Muslims. I'm ashamed to admit that when I was a Christian, I was as assertive and pompous about my Christian beliefs as the OP appears to be with his. I couldn't be reasoned with either because I was absolutely certain that my beliefs about God were correct and the Bible was infallible, inerrant, and above reproach.

Yes, and what do these religions have in common? They believe they have the truth, and they believe God wants them to spread the word. Ironically, not one of them believes the other ones are doing it right and teaching the real truth.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, and what do these religions have in common? They believe they have the truth, and they believe God wants them to spread the word. Ironically, not one of them believes the other ones are doing it right and teaching the real truth.

..and what does one learn by "exposing" the rifts between denominations?
Not a lot..
I am more interested in what they all have in common.
..and that is the existence of God's messengers, and their scriptures.

We all know that being in a majority does not necessarily mean that it is true.
eg. Bible & Qur'an
However, it does suggest that it deserves consideration .. and not just dismissed with a wave of the hand .. no evidence of gods etc.

 

[CG Didymus]

And you have not shown any of your claims to be evidence yet.

Religions do offer more "proof" that their beliefs are true. We usually hear Christians tell us about how reliable the Bible is... that we can trust it as being the word of God. That the probability of Jesus fulfilling the prophecies are astronomical. Baha'is have nothing new. They use those same old "proofs". What are the chances? I'd say slim. Just because a religion says their book is inerrant and that their prophet fulfilled every prophecy in the world doesn't proof a thing.

 

[John53]

..but you do choose to "stand there", do you not?

Both you and I know that belief in God has little to do with empirical evidence .. so why harp on about it all the time?

ummm because the thread is literally called evidence....

 

[Subduction Zone]

..and what does one learn by "exposing" the rifts between denominations?
Not a lot..
I am more interested in what they all have in common.
..and that is the existence of God's messengers, and their scriptures.

We all know that being in a majority does not necessarily mean that it is true.
eg. Bible & Qur'an
However, it does suggest that it deserves consideration .. and not just dismissed with a wave of the hand .. no evidence of gods etc.

The point that you are not getting is that the claim for evidence came from a theist. Yet none has been presented. Only claims of evidence. One can argue for the existence of one's God by several means. But if one claims "evidence" one needs to supply it on demand.

 

[CG Didymus]

Any evidence would have to be observable but since God is not an observable phenomena the assumption is that no evidence means no God.

The Bible has stories of God showing himself to be real. One of those was when Elijah called out to God to send fire from heaven. Problem is... Just because the Bible says that happened, why would anyone believe it? But for some, the Bible is believed. For some, Baha'u'llah and the Baha'is writings are believed. But do Baha'is really believe in the Bible the same way an Orthodox Jew would or how a fundy Christian would? No, they take it too literal for a Baha'i. But a Baha'i does take the Baha'i writings that literal. But has there been problems with religious people taking their writings too literally or as being inerrant? I think there has been. For a non-believer, anyone taking their religious writings too literal is a problem.