Evidence

[Alien826]

No, I don't..
We all know what "sincerity" means .. well, I assumed so.
It means that we seek for truth, without reservation .. not conditional. Deflating our ego.

That's right. My point is that you are saying that a sincere search will definitely discover God and a search that doesn't discover God is therefore by definition insincere. You are excluding the possibility that a sincere search might not find God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Whoever the OP meant to address, I am certain that I am not included and not interested in joining.

Yet here you are.

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

Psychology is the scientific study of mind and behavior. Psychology includes the study of conscious and unconscious phenomena, including feelings and thoughts. It is an academic discipline of immense scope, crossing the boundaries between the natural and social sciences.
Psychology - Wikipedia

"Immense scope" ..

• 4 Major schools of thought
  • 4.1 Biological
  • 4.2 Behaviorist
  • 4.3 Cognitive
  • 4.4 Social
  • 4.5 Psychoanalytic
  • 4.6 Existential-humanistic

Religion is not dependent on empirical proof .. it relies on theological theory and conclusion.
..much like theories in psychology, for example.

False. Theories in the social sciences have to succeed the scientific method just as the hard sciences. The methods are as rigorous and requires careful analysis. The only difference is that the hard sciences have a statistical minimum of 99.95% while the social sciences have a standard of 95%. The reason for more latitude is because studying human behavior can’t control all variables.

The study I conducted in college examined the correlation between religiosity and attitudes towards science. My prediction was that the higher the religiosity the lower the trust and attitudes toward science. My result was over 99.9%. It was indisputable that those with more religious views will have more contempt for science, and this was based on observations in debate with theists.

Your poor judgment about the social sciences is a data point that my study predicts.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

From a theist perspective I see no evidence? Earth formed due to natural laws,

If you offer there are laws, that would mean there is a lawgiver.

If there is no lawgiver, then one one must logically think that disorder is the instigator of the highest order, or that no intelligence is the instigator of the highest intelligence.

Maybe then we should be aiming to be less smart, we may then be able to create the universes and all that dwells within.

Regards Tony

 

[Alien826]

I would not hold your breath waiting for that to happen...

That's just silly. I am suggesting a counterfactual set of happenings that are highly unlikely to happen, in answer to your question about what would be convincing evidence for the existence of god. Of course it's unlikely, that's the point.

No, I would not take that as evidence that God existed, I would take it as a paranormal phenomenon, since that could never happen under normal circumstances....

It would never happen unless God took over human free will and made it happen, so indirectly it might be evidence that God exists.

As @Sgt. Pepper knows only too well, there are paranormal things that are inexplicable by any known scientific understandings. Would that do it for you?

I would not hold your breath waiting for that to happen. Elimination of all disease would require God intervening in the natural world and overriding the course of nature and removal of all the weapons would require going against the laws of physics!

But that still would not prove that God exists since it could be caused by aliens as you said. Aliens who were much more advanced than humans could make diseases disappear and they could locate and grab up all the weapons. Just think about what we can do now that we could not do 50 years ago, GPS and all the other technology we have. There is no end to what humans can do if they set their minds to it. We could even find the cures for all diseases so everyone would live into old age and die a natural death.

You amaze me. First, all these things would happen in a short period, so it's the total impact we are considering. Second, each thing is accompanied by a message from God.

Yet, you hand wave it all away, all the while continuing to claim that some old writings are evidence for God. Words fail me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

People can be convinced of all sorts of things. It does not mean that they are necessarily right or that they even have reliable evidence for that belief. A person may truly believe that God spoke to them himself. So you may know for yourself, but there is also a very good possibility that you are mistaken.

This is why reliable evidence is needed to convince anyone else or for someone to even claim that one has a rational belief.

It can be very difficult but we must each find our own way. My search only applies to me and in the end I must live with it. You too will follow what you find is true for you according to your research and I respect that.

 

[Alien826]

Think about it....
If the 93% of people who are believers are stupid, how would the world continue to function?
How would anything function in society, hospitals, universities, governments?
Everything is not run by the 7% of the world population who are atheists, that would be logically impossible!

Humans have an amazing ability to be clever about some things and stupid about other things.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In one way of looking at it, this does mean that God does not exist.

If we consider that God is an object of human worship, then any entity/alien/magic whatsit beyond the knowledge of humanity can't be God, so we only have to consider what's within the scope of knowledge of theists when deciding whether God exists.

Even if some magical entity did exist on the other side of the universe completely unknown to humanity, no theist today is praying to it. It isn't what anyone refers to when they say "God."

One is thinking way to small. look at the current science as to the size of creation and then consider no matter how big we think it is, it is but one lamp of another 100,0000,000 lamps.

God is outside all of His creation, God is not Contained, God is the Most Great Spirit that emanates creation. Creation is contained, God is unconstrained.

God is the Most Great Spirit that powers creation via the Holy Spirit, which is the Essence of the Messengers. The Spirit they are Annointed with, is the cause of creation. Without them nothing exists.

Yet all some choose to see is the human body.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Where you see failure on the part of theists to provide evidence of God, the theist sees a failure of perception on your part.

That really sums up the OP well.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That means s because theists tend to not understand the concept of evidence. Here they seem to think that dogma is evidence.

The evidence provided is testable.

That one has not yet considered what are valid tests, is really what it boils down to.

Tests can be done on the available Evidence.

The Person
The Revelation
The Word.

Regards Tony

 

[RestlessSoul]

Nope. It is a lack of belief in a God. That is not the same thing at all.

Ah. More semantics, then.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

1) The person is only evidence for the existence of a person claiming to have a message from God. It's not evidence for the existence of God.

2) 3) Revelation/message. Again: it's only evidence of a person claiming to have a message from God. How do you know it's from God?

You have provided no test data on the evidence to confirm what you have offered.

Valid tests can be discussed.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is not "evidence". " It convinces me" does not make a claim evidence.

Not to you. Yet what test data on the evidence have you already considered?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Bible has stories of God showing himself to be real. One of those was when Elijah called out to God to send fire from heaven. Problem is... Just because the Bible says that happened, why would anyone believe it? But for some, the Bible is believed. For some, Baha'u'llah and the Baha'is writings are believed. But do Baha'is really believe in the Bible the same way an Orthodox Jew would or how a fundy Christian would? No, they take it too literal for a Baha'i. But a Baha'i does take the Baha'i writings that literal. But has there been problems with religious people taking their writings too literally or as being inerrant? I think there has been. For a non-believer, anyone taking their religious writings too literal is a problem.

God is demonstrated to us via the Messenger, the Revelation and the Word.

That is this OP, that is the Evidence we can set the test data upon.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

One is thinking way to small. look at the current science as to the size of creation and then consider no matter how big we think it is, it is but one lamp of another 100,0000,000 lamps.

God is outside all of His creation, God is not Contained, God is the Most Great Spirit that emanates creation. Creation is contained, God is unconstrained.

God is the Most Great Spirit that powers creation via the Holy Spirit, which is the Essence of the Messengers. The Spirit they are Annointed with, is the cause of creation. Without them nothing exists.

Yet all some choose to see is the human body.

Regards Tony

I have to use a lot of benefit of the doubt to not see this type of argument as dishonest.

When you use the term "God," are you talking about something completely unknown to humanity, including yourself? Of course not. So please stop pretending that some unknown thing "outside of all Creation," with no connection to your religion could be the God you pray to.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's right. My point is that you are saying that a sincere search will definitely discover God and a search that doesn't discover God is therefore by definition insincere. You are excluding the possibility that a sincere search might not find God.

Great observation, you are correct and luckily the evidence contains much advice on what is required when we search for God.

There is testable conditions we need to meet.

I can tell you of two of the most important requirements, they are given in short meditations.

1 O SON OF SPIRIT!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

2 O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes." Baha'u'llah

There is also the Tablet of a true Seeker.
(Linked)

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have to use a lot of benefit of the doubt to not see this type of argument as dishonest.

When you use the term "God," are you talking about something completely unknown to humanity, including yourself? Of course not. So please stop pretending that some unknown thing "outside of all Creation," with no connection to your religion could be the God you pray to.

That is why the evidence needs to be considered. After reading the evidence, I am able to make such observations.

Regards Tony

 

[Alien826]

Why would God not want belief to be a choice? If God did not want that then God could override free will and make everyone into believers in one split second. The fact that everyone is not a believer means that belief is a choice.

Belief, not acceptance. I can see how God would want us to choose whether to accept him (whatever that may mean), but belief depends on how likely the proposition seems to each individual person. Hiding from us would seem to stack the deck in favor of the easily convinced. A level playing field would be something easy to believe (because it is easily seen or experienced) coupled with a free choice, with neither carrot nor stick.

Incidentally, God wouldn't have to interfere with our free will. Just make his existence more obvious.

God is very obvious to the 93% of people in the world who believe in Him. How do you explain that? Why is it that the small percentage of people who are atheists cannot see what everyone else sees?

That's a small question with a big answer. This thread is long enough already.

That is a very astute observation, as it is a fool's errand to try to understand God. It is the acme of human understanding to realize that we can never fathom the mystery of God.

“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart, from now until the end that hath no end, and with all the concentrated intelligence and understanding which the greatest minds have attained in the past or will attain in the future, this divinely ordained and subtle Reality, this sign of the revelation of the All-Abiding, All-Glorious God, thou wilt fail to comprehend its mystery or to appraise its virtue. Having recognized thy powerlessness to attain to an adequate understanding of that Reality which abideth within thee, thou wilt readily admit the futility of such efforts as may be attempted by thee, or by any of the created things, to fathom the mystery of the Living God, the Day Star of unfading glory, the Ancient of everlasting days. This confession of helplessness which mature contemplation must eventually impel every mind to make is in itself the acme of human understanding, and marketh the culmination of man’s development.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 165-166

Nice quotation (seriously). I assume then that he doesn't, elsewhere, make any definitive claims about the nature of God or what God wants of us?

 

[Alien826]

you said:

it gives a sense of total certainty that needs no proof or evidence.

Exactly but it can’t be explained to to those who haven’t experienced it.

That's what I said.

 

[Alien826]

Theists believe that God exists but that is not a claim. It is the Messengers of God who claim that God exists. Theists just pass along what the Messengers have claimed about God. We present what we believe is the evidence for God - the Messengers of God - and atheists reject our evidence.

That's a bit of a stretch. Just about every theist I have read makes claims about God. I don't think a claim has to come out of the blue to be a claim. Does it?

Incidentally, are there any Messengers for non Abrahamic religions, like Hinduism?