Evidence

[Alien826]

There is evidence for God, although there is no proof. Evidence is not proof.

People believe many things with evidence when there is no proof. For example, in a court of law, when there is no actual proof that a murder was committed the jury has to decide if the defendant is guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

You have to read what i was responding to. Excuse me if I don't repeat it here. This thread is already growing faster than I can read it.

 

[QuestioningMind]

This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided.

This OP is applicable to all Faiths Moses and Torah, Jesus New Testament, Muhammad Koran, etc), but I will use what has been offered in the Bahai writings.

So Evidence of the Hidden God.

"He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

After the Manifestations have left the earth, the Word remains as the proof

"Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

So the trial begins, the evidence is already boxed, the defendant/s stand in front of all Humanity

So what can be provided are the links to all the proof given by the Manifestations (defendants).

The person of the Manifestation is one line of evidence, Character references are available.

The Guidence/Wrirings given by them is the other line of Evidence left, that can be linked.

That is all the defendant will give as proof of God.

Now the key here is, we all get to be the jury and the judge. The Manifestations will individually submit to your verdict, so the burden of Justice now falls upon each individual.

Regards Tony

That is all the defendant will give as proof of God.

Then the defendant has given ZERO proof, since all the defendant has provided are unverifiable claims. Defendant has failed to prove its claim, thus the case is dismissed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The evidence provided is testable.

That one has not yet considered what are valid tests, is really what it boils down to.

Tests can be done on the available Evidence.

The Person
The Revelation
The Word.

Regards Tony

Give us an example of the evidence and a test that could possibly refute it. That should not be that hard if your claim is true.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not to you. Yet what test data on the evidence have you already considered?

Regards Tony

No exact claims or evidence have been presented. How could I test any of them. The fact that no testable claims have been presented is why we can conclude that there is no evidence.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Give us an example of the evidence and a test that could possibly refute it. That should not be that hard if your claim is true.

I'd like to see that too, but I assume we'll only see more excuses that won't show us anything.

 

[Alien826]

"God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries, known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.[5]

Without denigrating these Messengers, I'd like to point out a difference between them and anyone who tells you something.

I'll tell you that Australia exists. I've been there, I claim. If you don't believe me, you can go there yourself and see if I am correct.

The Messengers don't offer any way to check what they say, because they claim, or others claim on their behalf, that they are the only ones that God reveals things to.

Do you see why people are dubious about the Messengers? The only possible way to determine if their claims are correct is to take their word for it, because God won't talk to anyone else.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ah. More semantics, then.

No. That is not semantics. Why not do the honest thing and admit that you don't understand?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'd like to see that too, but I assume we'll only see more excuses that won't show us anything.

I know, it has been one unsupported claim after another.

 

[Alien826]

My main disagreement with atheists at this time is just that I don't see atheism as the default position on faith, but rather agnosticism.

There's actually not that much difference, depending on the individuals of course. Many atheists keep a tiny crack in their beliefs open to allow for the remote (to them) possibility that there might be some kind of god. Many agnostics would, if pressed agree that if they had to place a bet, they would bet on there being no god.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I want to see happen. I consider my attitude of saving children from fatal diseases to be a moral thing on my part.

That is indeed a moral thing to strive for.
What if, as part of that process to make that a reality, it will require us to have laws against sexual immortality and even restrict the production of children between a married man and women?
There are indeed a great deal of lifestyle changes that would be required to fulfil you desire to save children from fatal diseases.
What if the requirements are found in the evidence that was submitted?
Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is indeed a moral thing to strive for.
What if, as part of that process to make that a reality, it will require us to have laws against sexual immortality and even restrict the production of children between a married man and women?
There are indeed a great deal of lifestyle changes that would be required to fulfil you desire to save children from fatal diseases.
What if the requirements are found in the evidence that was submitted?
Regards Tony

Your question is quite the non sequitur. You appear to be assuming specific examples that he was not referring to.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Science has studied this and revealed the feelings are hormones injected into the blood, and the brain reward centers fire up. This is similar to the feelings of euphoria when your favorite sports team wins a big game. Theists think their experiences are special because of the non-rational, self-serving context of religion.

The evidence provided explains why this is so. Reward and punishment are hard-wired into our capacity of mind.
This world is a world of opposites, With the positive force being the creative and building force and the negative force being that of decay and disintegration.
Reward is a positive force, punishment is lack of reward
Light is a creative force, darkness is lack of light.
Love is a creative force, hate is lack of love.
Interestingly the magnetic poles indicate how creation is held together by these opposing forces and is balanced.
Ancient evidence hinted at this.
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things"
The whole of creation is balance on the pillars of reward and punishment.
The reward is found in God, punishment is lack of God.
Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Your question is quite the non sequitur. You appear to be assuming specific examples that he was not referring to.

They are a few of many possible examples, these are recent examples that have been recently discussed on RF, so they give a great point of reference to the validity of sound evidence.
Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A fact that escapes most believers, especially those who engage in debates. Religious belief isn’t truth as you admit no means to verify the concepts

Yet the Evidence has been supplied. The all knowing God is only known via

The Messenger
The Revelation
The given Word.

What makes that different from

A Person
A statement
the record of that statement.

What tests could determine if the former has an innate infallible capacity?

I can offer, that in the case of Baha’u’llah we have actual witness accounts of tests they devised and their personal record of the results.

Regards Tony

 

[RestlessSoul]

No, the point of this whole thread is that theists like to pretend that they have the same sort of reasoning that others have when they claim to have evidence for their beliefs. When we said "Okay, where is the evidence?" none was forthcoming. Don't blame atheists for abusing semantics in this debate.

As I said before, if people just claimed to have a belief most others would simply say "Okay". But when one claims "I have evidence for my beliefs" then the person took on a burden of proof.

You can have whatever beliefs that you want and I will not oppose that. Claim that you have evidence and I will demand it.

If someone claimed that they had evidence that Jesus was 100% mythical would you simply accept that claim, or would you demand to see the evidence? Personally I would demand to see the evidence, and I am not even a Christian any longer.

Maybe evidence is the wrong word. But the assumption that our beliefs are without foundation, and without reason, is erroneous and rather patronising.

 

[Subduction Zone]

They are a few of many possible examples, these are recent examples that have been recently discussed on RF, so they give a great point of reference to the validity of sound evidence.
Regards Tony

There has not been one proper test mentioned here.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nice quotation (seriously). I assume then that he doesn't, elsewhere, make any definitive claims about the nature of God or what God wants of us?

That is this OP. The only evidence given by God, of God is

The Messenger/s
The Revelation/s
The revealed Word.

This is the difficulty the Messengers face. They are born a Human like us, but are Annointed with the creative Spirit.

That is what Christ means "Annointed One".

Each Messenger tells us that beyond them, God is unknowlable, even to the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

Maybe evidence is the wrong word. But the assumption that our beliefs are without foundation, and without reason, is erroneous and rather patronising.

Who did that? Once again the claim to have evidence came from the OP. He has not provided any. Now he has claimed his beliefs are testable (I don't think he understands what that means) he has not provided any tests.

If you have followed my posts I have said that there may be other arguments, but the claim of evidence appears to be false.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is this OP. The only evidence given by God, of God is

The Messenger/s
The Revelation/s
The revealed Word.

This is the difficulty the Messengers face. They are born a Human like us, but are Annointed with the creative Spirit.

That is what Christ means "Annointed One".

Each Messenger tells us that beyond them, God is unknowlable, even to the Messengers.

Regards Tony

Dogma is not evidence.

 

[John53]

Maybe evidence is the wrong word. But the assumption that our beliefs are without foundation, and without reason, is erroneous and rather patronising.

Theists assume the very same thing of atheists. Is their assumption also erroneous and patronising?