Evidence

[Subduction Zone]

It might be circular, but the Bible is really the only evidence for Christianity.
The Baha'i Faith has better evidence since we have more than the Writings of Baha'u'llah. We also have factual information about His Person and we have the recorded history of His life and His 40-year mission on earth.

In other words there is no good evidence for Christianity. And your faith doesn't do any better. Yes, you know who wrote it. So what?

 

[Trailblazer]

I am pretty sure that you did. But if you didn't then why would he use such a poor method?

God could talk to ordinary humans but they could never understand God so why would God do that?
If you think that Messengers is a poor method you are going to have to come up with a better method.

 

[Subduction Zone]

God could talk to ordinary humans but they could never understand God so why would God do that?
If you think that Messengers is a poor method you are going to have to come up with a better method.

Why couldn't they? God is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent. It would be simple for him.

 

[Trailblazer]

How come?

Because God is at the helm and God decided that is how it would be.

 

[Trailblazer]

Leaving behind nonbelievers for one.

God did not leave them behind, they just decided not to hop on board.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Because God is at the helm and God decided that is how it would be.

Sorry, but that does not fly. God is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent. Anything that happens is his fault.

 

[Trailblazer]

I want to take a risk and attempt to address this. Is it really illogical to say God needs?

Does God need anything? I think so. Why? Because God is more than just omnipotent, God is also complete. In order to be complete, God needs to be engaged in relationships with others. God cannot be complete without filling the role as parent, spouse, monarch, child, adherent, rebel, jailer, prisoner, tycoon, pauper, murderer, etc... The way God achieves this is thru creation of individuals and then sharing their experiences as they happen.

One of these experiences / relationships is God-worshiper. In order to acheive this, in order to be complete, God needs belief, needs congregation, needs ritual, needs clergy, needs liturgy, needs service. Without these things God is not complete.

If God by defintion is complete, then God needs us, needs people, and needs us to do certain things. Conversely, there's a dark side. God also needs criminals, murder, disease, suffering, torture, etc... all in order to satisfy the condition of "complete".

Feel free to laugh at me, and critisize me for this idea. But it answers a lot of questions, and makes each and everything thing that exists ( even the bad stuff ) vitally important to God.

Worship is needed. Kindness is needed. Justice is needed. All of it is needed.

Diversity in gender? needed
Diversity in sexuality? needed
Diversity in belief? needed
Diversity in non-belief? needed

Complete diversity is needed for God to be complete.

I do not believe that God needs anything from humans. God might want things, like our belief and our love, but a want is not a need. All those things you listed are what God wants, not because He needs them for Himself, but because He wants them for humanity.

Baha’u’llah made it perfectly clear that God has no needs since God is self-sufficient.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess.” Gleanings, p. 148

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

 

[dybmh]

I appreciate all your ideas and they make sense but it is a bit too much to cover on this thread. It would be a good topic for a new thread, why you think the evidence for Baha'u'llah being the Messiah fails..

Yes, I agree. I wanted to give some reasons to believe that I investigated with open eyes and ears.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is because they are told to believe religious stories by their Sunday school teachers, parents, aunts, grandparents

Yes, that's true for most people.

God isn't known to exist, nor has any attributes that anyone can claim exists or doesn't exist.

That is also true.

 

[dybmh]

Good questions. In my opinion it requires independent investigation to find the answers to them. It means, I cannot investigate for you or on your behalf, and provide you with result and conclusions. You would have to do it for yourself if you want

I did, the tiniest bit of research before posting my comment. I don't think there's much there to find on this. There's no way to confirm whether or not Baha'u'llah was educated. It's part of his story, but there's no documentation.

Still I appreciate that you brought this part of your faith to the discussion.

 

[Trailblazer]

I doubt if they are obvious to most people. Look how small your religion is. Most people are the religion that they are because of where they were born. Reason had nothing to do with their choice.

We covered this before. I was talking about Messengers collectively, I was not talking about Baha'u'llah. I already sent you the seven reasons why most people have not yet recognized Baha'u'llah, and you can add to that the fact that all religions are small in the first centuries.

But you are correct in saying that most people are the religion that they are because of where they were born. Reason had nothing to do with their choice. This is one of the seven reasons why the Baha'i Faith is still small,

4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

I was not born into any religion so reason affected my choice, and the choice of my sister and my brother and my mother, who was born into Christianity but dropped out in her youth and later became a Baha'i at age 60.

 

[dybmh]

I do not believe that God needs anything from humans. God might want things, like our belief and our love, but a want is not a need. All those things you listed are what God wants, not because He needs them for Himself, but because He wants them for humanity.

Baha’u’llah made it perfectly clear that God has no needs since God is self-sufficient.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 136

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess.” Gleanings, p. 148

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

I understand. You follow Baha'u'llah and this is what he said.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I don't really believe in a single all-powerful God, myself. To me, if you think hard enough, it looks bad with the state of the world. I do believe in "spirits" though, and kind of like, "higher level spirits" that act like gods in some ways, but probably aren't gods (whether they think they are is another thing).

I think that makes me polytheist, which I've already talked about a bit before. But I also came across an article recently talking how some atheists believe in ghosts. So with the right mental gymnastics, one could probably make the case, if they were bored, that I am just as much atheist as polytheist. I won't make that argument myself though - because really, I'm not quite that bored. And I also don't see the point, it was just an interesting thing to think about.

As for the Baha'i faith, I have specific instances of why I disagree, but I can sum it up in 2 words mainly: "PR problem". I do think there are genuine people who are Baha'is, and I think @Trailblazer is one. But I just feel both the faith, and a lot of things it touches, end up with PR problems. And that's not really good for a religion that wishes to promote world peace.

 

[Trailblazer]

To me, to use a computer software analogy, the Baha'i faith is Christianity 2.0 - it fixes some things some critical thinkers might consider bugs, but also introduces brand new ones.

I agree that Baha'i is kind of like Christianity, especially in how it views God.
What new bugs are those?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I agree that Baha'i is kind of like Christianity, especially in how it views God.
What new bugs are those?

There are quite a few to list. But I think one example was a post @dybmh made talking about how Bahaullah can't both fulfill Bible prophecy, and swipe away a lot of the Bible writings with a swipe of the hand. And that it's one or the other.

 

[Trailblazer]

In other words there is no good evidence for Christianity. And your faith doesn't do any better. Yes, you know who wrote it. So what?

Jesus, being the Messenger of God, is the best evidence for Christianity.
Baha'u'llah, being the Messenger of God, is the best evidence for the Baha'i Faith.

There is a lot of verifiable evidence for Baha'u'llah but not for Jesus, thus the Baha'i Faith does better.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why couldn't they? God is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent. It would be simple for him.

No, God cannot make people understand what they have no capacity to understand. Humans were born with a human mind but the Messengers were born with a divine mind and that is why they alone can understand God.

 

[dybmh]

I know most Christians will disagree with me on this notion but the Bible is very clear that God creates evil. It is written in the Bible as if God admits to creating evil. Isaiah 45:7 states, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Yes, I am very very familiar with this verse. It's actually very deep if one considers the differences between "create" "form" and "make". Why is light "formed" and darkness and evil are "created". Why is peace "made". Also of note, darkness is not evil.

The New King James Version uses the word "calamity" instead of "evil," and the New International Version uses the word "disaster" and not "evil" or "calamity." For the record, Jeremiah 26:13, 1 Chronicles 21:15, and Joel 2:13 coincide with Isaiah 45:7 (NIV), which says, "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things."

The word in Hebrew is definitely best translated as "evil".

Bible also mentions God changing his mind about bringing disasters down on his own people as punishment for their transgressions against him (Jeremiah 26:13, 1 Chronicles 21:15, Joel 2:13). And according to Genesis 6:6-7, God regretted creating not only mankind but also every animal, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds of the air. The Bible contains several other verses that mention God's regrets in addition to creating humanity, all the animals, and birds (1 Samuel 15:11; 2 Samuel 24:16; Jeremiah 42:10).

Ah. Thank you. I'm not up to speed on all those examples. I'll need to research those, and you make a good point which would adjust my theory or possibly invalidate it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry, but that does not fly. God is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent. Anything that happens is his fault.

God is omniscient and omnipotent so whatever God says goes.
Anything that God wills is God's choice, not His fault. God cannot be at fault since God is infallible.
Nothing that humans choose to do with their free will is God's choice.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, God cannot make people understand what they have no capacity to understand. Humans were born with a human mind but the Messengers were born with a divine mind and that is why they alone can understand God.

So he is not omniscient or omnipotent.