Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You just said that he wasn't in your previous post.
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Evidence
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Dream on.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I never said that.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Humans have the capacity to understand: "Hello, I'm God. I'm here. You are not alone..."
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
I have evaluated your "evidence" as not evidence for the existence of God.
I used to ask God to speak to me to confirm he exists but gues what? "The number you have dialed is currently not awailable. Please try again later..."
What other tests do you propose?
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Now you just have to show how can you draw facts and proofs from this evidence.
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joelr
Well-Known Member
Good. I do not suggest that believer or disbeliever is more or less capable than the other.
I do get the feeling that atheists like to suggest that believers are "irrational" in their belief .. I wonder why?
Perhaps because they often are.
That does not let "atheists off the hook" .. we can all be guilty of unsound conclusions.
That is why I put all my beliefs to the test of skeptical and rational thinking.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
According to the Bible, God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1–6; Isaiah 46:9–10; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7–10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). And according to the Bible, this supposedly "all-knowing" and "all-powerful" God repopulated the earth with the same kind of flawed creatures he had used the previous time before he threw a cosmic temper tantrum and drowned every living being in a worldwide flood. It appears that he is incapable of learning from his own cosmic mistakes, even after having regret for creating humanity, the animals, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds in the air. Shouldn't an all-knowing, all-powerful God know better? According to Genesis 6:6-7, God regretted creating not only mankind but also every animal, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds of the air. A God who is suppose to be all-knowing and all-powerful would surely know better than to commit the same error twice. But God did commit the same error twice, which, in my view, was either extremely foolish and irresponsible in terms of morality, or God repeated his previous actions because he is a sadistic and psychotic monster who delights in punishing flawed humanity for acting precisely as he originally intended for humanity to behave.
Of course, I don't think we should believe a word of the Bible and take whatever it says with a grain of salt. As far as I am concerned, the Bible is chock full of contradictions, such as the scriptures that claim that God never changes. For instance, Numbers 23:19, states, "God is not a man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said it, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" And Malachi 3:6 also states, "I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed." However, other verses imply that God changes his mind (Jeremiah 18:5–10; Joel 2:13; Jonah 4:2), describe God changing his mind (Exodus 32:14; Amos 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:10), or assume that God will change his mind (Jeremiah 26:3; Joel 2:14; Jonah 3:9).
Amos 7:3 "The Lord changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.
Amos 7:6 "The Lord changed His mind about this. "This too shall not be," said the Lord God.
Exodus 32:14 "So the Lord changed His mind about the harm that He said He would do to His people."
Jonah 3:10 "When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, he relented on the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it."
Jeremiah 26:3 "Perhaps they will listen and each one will turn back from his evil way, and I will change my mind concerning the calamity that I intend to bring on them because of their evil deeds."
You would think that an all-knowing (Psalm 139:1-6; Isaiah 46:9-10; 1 John 3:20), all-powerful (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and ever-present (Psalm 139:7-10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17) God would have done a much better job at inspiring the Bible to be easily interpreted and agreed upon by his followers, but that's obviously not the case with the God of the Bible. And that's why there are multiple versions of the Bible (Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Protestant, with a plethora of varying English versions). And God's failure to be more clear with what the Bible actually teaches is why Christianity is so widely divided with Roman Catholics, Messianic Judaism, Anglicans, Orthodox (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox), and a smorgasbord of Protestants: Baptist (First Baptist, Second Baptist, Southern Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Anabaptist, Freewill Baptist), Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Mennonite, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventist, Assemblies of God, Church of Christ, Church of God, Church of the Nazarene, Apostolic Church, Presbyterians, Quakers, and literally hundreds of other Protestant churches.
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RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Yes, by using consistent logic you did.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Yes, you did.
The use of the various omnis by believers often results in the person making the various omni claims to be self contradictory.
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
That can lead one into a pickle.
Which is why it's best to stick to simple assertions.
I am cats.
Whoops....
joelr
Well-Known Member
Yes there is. Guess who made up the laws? Scientists. We use generally one form of math, in physics often algebra, linear differential equations sometimes, and it describes something in nature very accurately.
You can also make geometric descriptions of the same things. EM can be expressed by a geometry. In fact there may be endless systems that can describe these phenomenon, some far to complex for us, some using math we don't even know yet or is too advanced.
Do you see what's happening, there are no laws. Nature is happening and its symmetrical and has patterns, we already know nature is a creative force. We know everything is run by probability and potential.
This can easily be the case for all reality. What is not needed is a conscious mind. But if there was a mind that would just be a deism. A theistic God is levels away from being real.
All you are doing here is the same people did when they said lightening was zeus. Consciousness happened, it isn't magic, it isn't a "divine spark", we are led by hormones and chemicals, no soul.
The cosmological and ontological argument for God do not work.
You are poisoning the well here. No "highest intelligence" exists and one has never ben shown to exist. Except in fiction. Tolkien came up with one, so did the Israelites (actually El is the highest, Yahweh is lower) and so on. It doesn't make sense that there is just a highest intelligence anyways. You can always go one higher and it's infinite. An infinite intelligence requires an infinite storage, infinite time, a science that can allow communication infinitely fast, but if infinitely separated it takes an infinity to communicate with itself.
It's a fiction.
Intelligence as we know it is in humans. Created from this universe, not with an extra divine spark, just the natural world.
Now disorder IS the instigator of the highest order. Order exists in small pockets, like humanity. Because entropy was low in this universe and is increasing it allows for pockets of higher order which do increase the entropy overall in the long run. We use energy from the sun and put it into a more disordered state.
The "highest order" as in a God concept is fiction. Again it's a paradox and probably not found in reality. Bahai is selling this religious idea of nature as some limited bad guy and this amazing divine realm where everything is perfect and man has awareness of.
Not real.
The universe within is a metaphor for our minds. We create philosophy and science.
"an ideal inner power man brings these realities forth from the invisible plane to the visible. This is contrary to nature's law.
It is evident therefore that man is ruler over nature's sphere and province. Nature is inert, man is progressive. Nature has no consciousness, man is endowed with it. Nature is without volition and acts perforce whereas man possesses a mighty will. Nature is incapable of discovering mysteries or realities whereas man is especially fitted to do so. Nature is not in touch with the realm of God, man is attuned to its evidences. Nature is uninformed of God, man is conscious of Him. Man acquires divine virtues, nature is denied them. Man can voluntarily discontinue vices, nature has no power to modify the influence of its instincts. Altogether it is evident that man is more noble and superior; that in him there is an ideal power surpassing nature. He has consciousness, volition, memory, intelligent power, divine attributes and virtues of which nature is completely deprived, bereft and minus; therefore man is higher and nobler by reason of the ideal and heavenly force latent and manifest in him."
All wrong. Humans are nature. Nature is not inert, it created the universe, our solar system, stars, the planet and vast life. Nature can modify and it modified life and gave it survival. Only man can be created by nature and then make up fictional deities and realms and declare that he is connected to this divine concept and therefore superior to nature.
Wow. The irony. Looks like the only animal going around and claiming it's superior to the thing it actually IS is man. These delusions are not a positive thing. Luckily all humans do not share this hubris.
I don't think many modern theists even think this way any longer. This is Catholic denial of the natural world. Doesn't even make sense in theism? God supposedly creates something and it's put down?
consciousness, volition, memory, intelligent power, all also in all higher animals. The history of homo sapien is that we are clearly a primate. Scientifically and behaviorally. Primate social dynamics in apes also demonstrates similar social structures with the tribe and with outsiders.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God does not talk like that because God is not a human being.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Well I don't hold beliefs in any fictional mythical deities and have conversations with myself thinking I'm talking to Thor, Yahweh, Krishna or Jesus. And I haven't fallen into any suicide cults.
So pretty good.
joelr
Well-Known Member
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
I know the answer to this one. The OT doesn't count. Except when it does.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
That’s it? That’s what a meaningful life looks like to you?
Nope, nothing freakish about the chaos of the early solar system.
When viewed in a human timescale it may seem ordered, however zoom out to (say) 4.5 billion years or 13.8 billion years and watch the fhaos unfold
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
So, you think every planet shares the same orbit with a secondary large planet, and this planet will collide with the first planet and tilt it to 23.4 degrees to form seasons, and move to eliminate all super-sized carnivores so humans can evolve?
Two things happening here - one is the fine tuning that gives us common things like stars and planets
The second is that rare events happened to make this earth extra habitable.