• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
They both have their Words/Writings/Scriptures.
They both have their followers (Ron L Hubbard has gathered about half of what Baha'u'llah gathered in a much shorter span of time)
They both claim to be Messengers.

What's the difference? :shrug:
Did Hubbard claim to be a Messenger of God? Did he write all about God? I don't think so.
The number of people who believe something is no indication as to whether it is true.
And there is no evidence that indicates Baha'u'llah was anything but a man who wanted *insert any number of possible motivations behind starting a religion*.
There is evidence although there is no proof. I have probably said this at least 100 times.
Scientology is certainly a religion. It's recognized as one legally, it has its tenets, it has its spiritual beliefs, its followers, it churches. In what way is it not a religion?
I do not care what it is legally recognized as. It is not a religion "of God" because it was not revealed by a Messenger of God.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is not true.
50% of the world's population do not need anybody to prove that Messengers of God are who they say they are.

..so why is that?
Is it that these people are gullible fools, or is it that some people just like arguing for the sake of it?

It's simple .. if you do not see any reliable evidence, that is what YOU see.
It is not what believers see.
Ad poulum fallacy.

And when it comes to religious beliefs the majority have to be "gullible fools". No matter which religion you choose to be right it is going to be the minority.

You really need to quit using strawman arguments and black and white fallacies.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How can that be the "right answer"? You keep failing to show why anyone should believe that.
I cannot show other people why they should believe it and that is not my job.
If people want to believe it they have to do their own homework. I can only point to the room where the evidence is located but people have to go in the room and look at the evidence for themselves.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

People who say "that's not evidence" have never opened the door to the next room so they will never see the evidence.

Just because I cannot "show" other people why they should believe it that does not mean it is not true.
There is no correlation whatsoever. It is either true or it is false, and everyone has to determine that for themselves..
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Did Hubbard claim to be a Messenger of God? Did he write all about God? I don't think so.
The number of people who believe something is no indication as to whether it is true.
I will change the analogy, then, to Bo and Peep of Heaven's Gate for a better equivalency then. Let us return to the original statement:

You said: "No, Ron L Hubbard and Baha'u'llah absolutely do not have the same amount of "evidence"." - I presume you would also say "No, Bo and Peep and Baha'u'llah absolutely do not have the same amount of "evidence"."

My response: They both have their Words/Writings.
They both had their followers
They both claim to be Messengers.

What's the difference? :shrug:

There is evidence although there is no proof. I have probably said this at least 100 times.

Alright, reading more into it I realized that Hubbard never claimed to be a prophet. However, there is still just as much 'evidence' that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and had a Divine Mind as there is evidence that Applewhite and Nettles (of Heaven's Gate) were foretold by extraterrestrials that they have been chosen to fulfill Biblical prophecies, and that they had been given higher minds than most people, as they claimed in their own words and writings.

I do not care what it is legally recognized as. It is not a religion "of God" because it was not revealed by a Messenger of God.
Heaven's Gate was a religion, revealed by Messengers of Extraterrestrials that wanted to share a message.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
One can say whatever they like..
The intention behind what somebody says is all important.

Perhaps you would like to tell us all about the messengers who were sent to mankind and their corresponding texts that teach all about this IPU ..what else do we no about it, other than it is pink? ;)

It's an illustration intended to make people think about their own beliefs. It doesn't have to have a point to point correspondence with other objects of belief. Nobody is claiming it is real, that's the point.

I could write some stuff about it and claim that I was inspired by God if that would help.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
No, Ron L Hubbard and Baha'u'llah absolutely do not have the same amount of "evidence".
There is no evidence that indicates that Ron L Hubbard was anything but a man who wanted to get rich.
Ron L Hubbard did not even found a religion. Scientology is not a religion.

Scientology describes itself as a religion. It is recognized as such in some countries. If you mean "true religion" you are getting into a place of many weeds. ;)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It doesn't require much imagination, to see that there is an explanation for this .. something greater than ourselves, that just "is" .. isn't born and doesn't die.

No, it doesn't, but does take some mental discipline to not call it a god, which I consider a terrible detour for Abrahamic theists. Once that something greater is removed from the cosmos and stuck in a supernatural world, once it starts giving threats and commands through "prophets," then spirituality turns into something less. It removes the sacred from reality and puts it in an inaccessible box containing a judgmental, irrational being just like the people who invented it, and that is the opposite of what I call authentic spirituality, which includes a sense of connection and belonging to our world, which resulted in horrors such as these:
  • "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand" - James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan (note his position ad responsibilities)
  • "My point is, God's still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous." - Sen. Inhofe, R-Okla
  • "The Earth will end only when God declares it's time to be over. Man will not destroy this Earth. This Earth will not be destroyed by a flood. . . . I do believe God's word is infallible, unchanging, perfect." - Rep John Shimkus, R-Ill.
that is just questioning existence itself .. it doesn't get us anywhere.

I disagree. The question of why there is anything at all including gods is very helpful, even though we have no answer and may never. What it does is show the flaw in the claim that the universe comes from a god because the universe needs a cause - a special pleading argument that has an unjustified different (double) standard for the existence of gods than universes. When I ask creationist theists, which includes anybody who believes that a sentient intelligent designer created nature, to explain that - why is there anything at all including a god, we see answers like yours, which I understand as this being a topic you don't want to address. And it's clear why no creationist wants to approach this. What can one answer that doesn't undermine his claims?

"critical thinking", or materialist thinking?

What is materialist thinking? The unwillingness to believe by faith? If so, then the two terms are synonymous.

Many people state things about God with little knowledge.

Anybody making a claim about gods is doing that, and it's worse than little knowledge. It's none at all.

so we end up with many different creeds and denominations, but still only One God.

"God" or "gods" is a genus, the various individual gods the species. Type versus token: "The type–token distinction is the difference between naming a class (type) of objects and naming the individual instances (tokens) of that class." God is a type, Yahwey, Allah, Odin, and Ahuru Mazda are tokens.

It is certainly possible, as I claim to be no more than human. However, what God the Most High, says in the Qur'an is a different matter. They are not my words.

You responded to, "it is extremely ironic when you claim that "Many people state things about God with little knowledge". You would be included in that group." You just did it again. Here you are telling us what a god did, something that even if it were true, you couldn't know it was. That's why messengers would be an inferior form of communication.

There is a good reason for everything.. Hint: it often has to do with our own desires.

I have to agree with you this time. You responded to, "People that are not Muslim do not tend to be very impressed by his work. There is a very good reason for that." Faith is the will to believe, which implies a psychological benefit, or a need met.

Oh, plenty of evidence has been shown...but you don't want to see it .. you can't see it .. it doesn't exist.

People whose evidence is rejected as supporting their beliefs seem to be unaware that their evidence might be weak, because it's enough for them, so anybody else not convinced by it must not be paying attention or is being recalcitrant. No, the atheists see the evidence. They just understand it differently. When rebuttal is offered, that's when the actual blindness begins, as with our discussion about why there is anything including gods if one believes they exist. I faced the issue. You did not. You didn't want to see the argument, so you waved it away - "Questioning existence doesn't get us anywhere."

Do you think that it is impossible that your thoughts can be known? Can you prove that?

You were asked to "prove that [God]'s aware of what is in our hearts," the claim you made: "Almighty God is aware of what is in our hearts." It doesn't matter that that may be possible. It matters if it is actual. This is you trying to shift the burden of proof: "One example of the burden of proof fallacy is someone who claims that ghosts exists, but doesn't prove this, and instead shifts the burden of proof to others, by stating that anyone who disagrees should prove ghosts don't exist."

you can carry on claiming that everything shown to you is not reliable evidence, and then when asked what, in your opinion, is reliable evidence, you avoid the issue.

Did this Pink Unicorn create and maintain the universe? Well, I can answer that .. no .. a pink Unicorn, if it exists, must be a creature. A creature did not create .. it is part of the creation.

Now substitute "God" for "Invisible pink unicorn." If a god exists, it is a part of nature, not its creator, or do you claim it created itself? Yeah, I know - the analogy will be disqualified on some irrelevant point. This comparison cannot be allowed for obvious reasons and must be dismissed with some just-so answer likely invented on the fly, some form of special pleading.

oh .. and if it's invisible, then how can it be pink? What sort of nonsense is this?

It's religion, just not yours. You just have to accept that it is pink and invisible by faith. You need to stop thinking so hard with your materialist logic.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
..so you are saying that Muhammad and His disciples are liars and guilty of fraud .. yes?
And you? Do you claim that Baha'u'llah and Joseph Smith were liars and guilty of fraud? After all, they taught that, wow, Muhammad was not the last Prophet after all?

Or do you admit they might just have been "mistaken?"

Christians might well suppose that Muhammad was indeed a liar and a fraud, however, since Christians believe that Jesus is God -- and Muhammad tells them they are wrong.

I have been around long enough to know that humans are very, very capable of being delusional, of imagining things that aren't there, and remembering them as if they truly happened. I do not claim that they are all liars and fraids -- I claim that their minds have pursuaded them of something that simply isn't true, and in all likelihood not their fault.

So no, I don't claim that Muhammad and His disciples were liars and guilty of fraud -- only the the Qur'an was written by human beings.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I cannot show other people why they should believe it and that is not my job.
If people want to believe it they have to do their own homework. I can only point to the room where the evidence is located but people have to go in the room and look at the evidence for themselves.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

People who say "that's not evidence" have never opened the door to the next room so they will never see the evidence.

Just because I cannot "show" other people why they should believe it that does not mean it is not true.
There is no correlation whatsoever. It is either true or it is false, and everyone has to determine that for themselves..
Do you seriously think that we have not "gone into the room"? It was dark.

Now, it would be fine if you simply stated "I believe". But when you state "I believe and I have evidence" then you take on a burden of proof. This should not be that hard.

I think that the problem is that believers often have serious doubts. If they fool themselves into believing that they have evidence then they can ease those doubts a bit. The problem is that "evidence" needs to be actual evidence to make that claim stick.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The right answer is that God exists and Messengers of God who establish religions are the evidence.
No atheist has the "right answer" because if they did they would know that God exists, and they would recognize the evidence that God has provided. It is very simple math.
A-a-a-a-n-n-n-n-d-d-d-d there we go again -- same claim, same total lack of evidence.

Let me point something out: The Baha'i and Mormon religions are practically the same age (1844 for Baha'is, 1830 for Mormons). Yet Mormonism has slightly more than twice as many believers as Bahai's (16.6 million to 8.0 million). Now, you might suspect that anything which was so obviously evidence of being a manifestation of God would be the one more likely to capture the most attention -- just by assuming the same general ability of ordinary humans to read and understand.

Not only that, but there are more than 400 million Buddhists and more than 1.1 million Hindus who apparently just aren't able to "get it" the way that you do. Doesn't this strike you as at all odd, since you seem to believe that (at least some of it) is the work of an omniscient deity?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
That is absurd .. if all the atomic and gravitational forces ceased, there would be no universe.
Of course, you will say that "we don't know" where these forces originate.
There is no rational basis to assume any creator or sustainer.

Well believers do know. ;)
You often ask thinkers if we believe ancient writers were frauds. No, they didn’t know any better when they wrote their superstitious stories. I do think modern people should know better than to interpret these old books literally. When they do, and make claims that are contrary to fact and knowledge, and are corrected but keep repeating the false claims, then that is fraud. Your assertion here is blatantly false.


What is notable is your deliberate disregard for accountability for what you claim. You seem to feel free to claim anything you want and know you will invite requests for evidence which you will blow off. That is bad faith, disingenuous, and to my mind fraud.


I claim the Qur'an to be my evidence.
Thats fine for your religious beliefs and rituals, but inadequate objectively and factually. We thinkers require objective and facts to support claims by those in debate, including religious people.

[/quote]If you claim it is delusional and/or fraudulent, then you should be able to show us why that is so.[/QUOTE]
You keep bringing up fraud and delusion, is there consciousness of guilt on your part?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Do you seriously think that we have not "gone into the room"? It was dark.
Yes, I seriously think that few atheists have not gone in the room to really look around, but they would need to know what to look for when they get in the room as that is half the battle.
I think that the problem is that believers often have serious doubts. If they fool themselves into believing that they have evidence then they can ease those doubts a bit. The problem is that "evidence" needs to be actual evidence to make that claim stick.
I have no doubts whatsoever. If I had doubts I would not be leaving most of my money and assets, which are considerable, to the Baha'i Faith. I could be out spending that money but instead I am here with you talking about evidence for Baha'u'llah, no offense, but...


What is actual evidence? You still have not answered that.
Let's just say that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be. How would we know if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be - what would the evidence look like?
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I cannot show other people why they should believe it and that is not my job.
If people want to believe it they have to do their own homework. I can only point to the room where the evidence is located but people have to go in the room and look at the evidence for themselves.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

People who say "that's not evidence" have never opened the door to the next room so they will never see the evidence.

Just because I cannot "show" other people why they should believe it that does not mean it is not true.
There is no correlation whatsoever. It is either true or it is false, and everyone has to determine that for themselves..

I had an epiphany while I read your post, my friend, and it suddenly dawned on me that I feel the same way towards the hard skeptics who used to keep asking me for tangible evidence of the paranormal, in spite of showing them the tangible evidence I already have, such as digital photos, SLS images, and thermal camera images of spirits, recorded videos, and recorded EVPs, or even what they saw and heard for themselves firsthand by using my ghost-hunting equipment. I was so immersed in the topic because it was religious in nature that I never considered the correlation between how we both feel similar about being repeatedly questioned about our beliefs.

As I've stated in other posts (including this one), I've long resolved not to argue or debate the paranormal evidence I've accumulated over the years with skeptics. I explained in the other post that I don't share my personal experiences as a psychic medium or with the paranormal in order to argue, debate, or persuade skeptics to believe me because, as far as I'm concerned, people are free to accept or reject what I say about my experiences as a medium or my other experiences with the paranormal. It's entirely their decision. The only reason why I talk about my medium abilities is so that others who don't have them can get a glimpse of what I see, hear, and feel everyday. I apologize for not treating your beliefs and those of the other Baha'i (as well as @muhammad_isa) with the same respect.
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Let me point something out: The Baha'i and Mormon religions are practically the same age (1844 for Baha'is, 1830 for Mormons). Yet Mormonism has slightly more than twice as many believers as Bahai's (16.6 million to 8.0 million).
Mormons did not start from scratch, they already believed in Jesus Christ
Mormonism is really an offshoot of Christianity which has been around for more than 2000 years.
The Baha'i Faith is a brand new religion and it started from scratch.
Now, you might suspect that anything which was so obviously evidence of being a manifestation of God would be the one more likely to capture the most attention -- just by assuming the same general ability of ordinary humans to read and understand.
When did I ever say it was obvious? It is not obvious, which is why so few people believe it.

Seven reasons why more people have not recognized Baha’u’llah yet
Not only that, but there are more than 400 million Buddhists and more than 1.1 million Hindus who apparently just aren't able to "get it" the way that you do. Doesn't this strike you as at all odd, since you seem to believe that (at least some of it) is the work of an omniscient deity?
The reason they don't "get it" is #4 on the list from the post above.

4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

Claim: If the Baha'i Faith were obviously true we would all believe it already.

The Truth is never obvious to everyone. In fact, few people find it.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

There are reasons why few people find it.

Few people find the narrow gate and even fewer people enter through it because it is narrow, so it is difficult to get through...

It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel.... and that is why the NEW religion is always rejected by most people for a very long time after it has been revealed.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yes, I seriously think that few atheists have not gone in the room to really look around, but they would need to know what to look for when they get in the room as that is half the battle.

I have no doubts whatsoever. If I had doubts I would not be leaving most of my money and assets, which are considerable, to the Baha'i Faith. I could be out spending that money but instead I am here with you talking about evidence for Baha'u'llah, no offense, but...


What is actual evidence? You still have not answered that.
Let's just say that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be. How would we know if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be - what would the evidence look like?

Then, since you clearly do not have any reliable evidence why can't you simply say "I believe" and leave it at that? When you claim to have evidence and can never demonstrate any it appears to everyone else that regardless of your claims that your belief is not as strong as you claim that it is. As the saying goes, actions speak louder than words and your actions demonstrate a serious dobt.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Mormons did not start from scratch, they already believed in Jesus Christ
Mormonism is really an offshoot of Christianity which has been around for more than 2000 years.
The Baha'i Faith is a brand new religion and it started from scratch.
The Baha'i faith emerged out of Babism which itself emerged out of Shi'a Islam.

Baháʼís believe in Muhammad as a prophet of God, and in the Qurʼan as the Word of God. Bahá'í teachings "affirm that Islam is a true religion revealed by Allah"; accordingly, members of the faith can give full assent to the traditional words of the Shahadah. Muhammad is taken to be one of the most important messengers of God as an "independent" Manifestation of God. Furthermore, Baháʼís believe that the Báb, a central figure in the Baháʼí Faith, was a descendant of Muhammad through Imam Husayn, whose coming was foretold by Muhammad. ʻAbdu'l-Bahá, the son and successor of Baháʼu'lláh, wrote that "His Holiness the Prophet Muhammad made a covenant concerning His Holiness the Báb and the Báb was the One promised by Muhammad, for Muhammad gave the tidings of his coming."

In the Baháʼí writings Muhammad is known by the titles the "Apostle of God", the "Seal of the Prophets" and the "Day-Star of Truth". Writing of Muhammad, ʻAbdu'l-Bahá states that through God's aid, he was able to unite the warring tribes of the Arabian Peninsula "to such an extent that one thousand tribes were welded into one tribe". This, he writes, despite the fact that he (Muhammad) was an illiterate man born into a cruel and barbarous culture. He was nevertheless responsible for producing "a book in which, in a perfect and eloquent style. He explained the divine attributes and perfections, the prophethood of the Messengers of God, the divine laws, and some scientific facts." Abdu'l-Baha believed that one of the proofs that the Qurʼan is a product of the divine are the facts about the workings of nature contained therein, facts which he believed were not known in Muhammad's own time. He claimed, for example, that Sura 36 of the Qurʼan depicts a heliocentric understanding of the solar system.
Muhammad in the Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I had an epiphany while I read your post, my friend, and it suddenly dawned on me that I feel the same way towards the hard skeptics who used to keep asking me for tangible evidence of the paranormal, in spite of showing them the tangible evidence I already have,
The evidence you have, which is extensive, will never be good enough for skeptics, because in their minds they have already decided it cannot be true. It is like what has been happening with my TV. There is no "normal" explanation for what has been happening, and even the Comcast technician said it had to be paranormal, but skeptics will continue to deny it no matter how many other technicians I call out to look at it who will find nothing wrong with my TV or the cable box.

I think the same thing is going on with atheists and evidence for God. NO EVIDENCE will ever be good enough...
That is why I sometimes tell atheists that they will just have to wait until they die to "get the evidence" they need. :)

On the other hand, as I think you have pointed out on the other thread, there is no 'guarantee' that people who die and cross over to the spiritual world will realize that God exists. They might still be lost in confusion. I think that is what will happen to many people, unless they already believed in God before they died and crossed over.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The evidence you have, which is extensive, will never be good enough for skeptics, because in their minds they have already decided it cannot be true. It is like what has been happening with my TV. There is no "normal" explanation for what has been happening, and even the Comcast technician said it had to be paranormal, but skeptics will continue to deny it no matter how many other technicians I call out to look at it who will find nothing wrong with my TV or the cable box.

I think the same thing is going on with atheists and evidence for God. NO EVIDENCE will ever be good enough...
That is why I sometimes tell atheists that they will just have to wait until they die to "get the evidence" they need. :)

On the other hand, as I think you have pointed out on the other thread, there is no 'guarantee' that people who die and cross over to the spiritual world will realize that God exists. They might still be lost in confusion. I think that is what will happen to many people, unless they already believed in God before they died and crossed over.

You are mischaracterizing skeptics again. They do not say "it cannot be true". They have not already decided that. What they will say is "Every other such claim has failed when investigated why do you think that this one will not also probably fail?" A skeptic will state that the odds are huge that it is not true and that a natural explanation appears to be the better one. That is why they are always asking for evidence. That indicates that they have an open mind, but not so open that it has fallen on the floor. What is unreasonable about saying Give us evidence and we will change our minds.

Is there any evidence that could make you change your mind about your beliefs?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Baha'i faith emerged out of Babism which itself emerged out of Shi'a Islam.
I was expecting you might say that. The Baha'i Faith emerged out of Islam the same way that Christianity emerged out of Judaism, yet they are separate religions based upon separate revelations from God to Messengers.

Just as Christianity broke away from Judaism, the Baha'i Faith broke away from Islam. Just as the Jews persecuted Jesus, the Muslims persecuted Baha'u'llah in Persia, the birthplace of His Faith, which was an Islamic nation..
 
Top