• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That surprised me. I thought you would say that the message was fitted to the people of the time.
The message was fitted to the people of the time but it became corrupted over time, as I said.
Does that mean that Baha'u'llah's message will inevitably be (or has already been) corrupted and a new Messenger will one day be required?
The message of Baha'u'llah cannot become corrupted because we have the original Writings of Baha'u'llah at the Baha'i World Centre in a protected vault so they cannot be tampered with and we have the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) that is charged with protecting those Writings. By virtue of the Covenant of Baha'u'llah, we also have the appointed interpreters of those Writings, so there is no question as to what Baha'ullah meant (the message). None of this was in place for any of the older religions, which is why the messages became corrupted by men over time.

However, some time in the future a new message will be required, but not in less than 1000 years (from 1852 AD).
Did Baha'u'llah say anything about why God doesn't prevent the corruption of his message? I ask because some Christians claim that the Bible is infallible because God has preserved it in its original form (something like that).
I am not implying the the Bible itself was corrupted, although this is possible, I am saying that the meaning of the Bible became corrupted by humans. God cannot prevent humans from corrupting the message except by the means noted above.
Baha'u'llah explained what happened to those original scriptures.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings, p. 171-172
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, that is a circular argument. You are making this too easy. You would need to prove that the "Messengers" were messengers of God and that there message was reliable. But you refuse to do that.
Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Wikipedia

So here is my perfectly valid circular argument:

If the premise Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is true, then the conclusion God exists must be true.

Of course, since we can never prove the premise that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is true, then we can never assert the conclusion that God exists must be true. That is why it is called a belief and not a fact.

I do not refuse to prove that "Messengers" were messengers of God. I cannot prove that they were Messengers of God.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Did this Pink Unicorn create and maintain the universe?
Well, I can answer that .. no .. a pink Unicorn, if it exists, must be a creature. A creature did not create .. it is part of the creation.

oh .. and if it's invisible, then how can it be pink? ;)

What sort of nonsense is this?
Why would you rather talk about pink unicorns rather than God?
It would seem that many people prefer to pretend that the Bible and Qur'an do not exist .. or that the people who believe them are somehow gullible in thinking that there is more to life than being born and dying.
You know, you might want to examine some of what you say more closely. Christians and Muslims claim that God is "spirit" and not material at all -- and at the same time the claim that he created and maintains a universe. How, without a physical reality to himself, did he physically move even in a single molecule, let alone a universe? I can answer that: the creation of a physical universe requires the exertion of physical force, which this god you speak of has none of.

Second, it appears that you do now believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn -- you have gone so far as to admit that it is part of creation. Having said that, what else can you tell us about her? Your question about how can she be pink if she's invisible shows you don't understand how invisibility actually works: all it requires is the ability to redirect EM radiation in such a way as to convince the eye of the onlooker that they are seeing through her. That doesn't change her colour, which remains pink.

I do not "pretend that the Bible and Qur'an do not exist." I'm perfectly well aware that they do, and have read both (the Bible three times all the way through). What I do claim, however, is that they were written by human beings. And you will not find -- anywhere on this planet -- a single copy of either that was written in such a way as could be demonstrably shown impossible by a human.

Heck, you won't even find Joseph Smith's "Golden Tablets" from which he claims to have written down the Book of Mormon, and that's less than 200 years ago!

As to there being "more to life than being born and dying," I'll agree, that's true. There's everything in between. However, I challenge you to tell me just what it is you were doing before you were born (or let's back it up and say conceived). What, exactly, was going on in your "life" before then? And if you have no answer, what makes you suppose that there will something going on after you die?

You know, nobody has ever produced a reliable "spirit" of a person after they've died, and James Randi has offered a great deal of money to anyone would could do so. Ah, but then there are those people who claim a bunch of nonsense about all those people who have "near death experiences" (NDEs) and how similar they all seem to be.

But I have 2 things to say about NDEs. First, not one person who "nearly" died actually did die. So an NDE can tell us something about what happens, perhaps, as the body and brain are shutting down, but not what happens when they have finally shut down. Second, the reason that we see many NDEs today, and did not see any very long ago, is simply that medical science has advanced to the point that people can be kept alive long enough to treat what was causing them to shut down, where before, they would just die.
 
Last edited:

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Did this Pink Unicorn create and maintain the universe?
Well, I can answer that .. no .. a pink Unicorn, if it exists, must be a creature. A creature did not create .. it is part of the creation.

oh .. and if it's invisible, then how can it be pink? ;)

What sort of nonsense is this?
Why would you rather talk about pink unicorns rather than God?
It would seem that many people prefer to pretend that the Bible and Qur'an do not exist .. or that the people who believe them are somehow gullible in thinking that there is more to life than being born and dying.

You may be misunderstanding the "Invisible Pink Unicorn" analogy. I doubt it, but I'll explain anyway.

I can say that the IPU did indeed create the universe.

I can say, no it's not a natural creature, it exists in the spirit world.

I can say that it can be invisible and pink at the same time because it is all powerful and can do anything, even illogical things.

Note that all I just did was talk about the IPU in the same terms as some people talk about God. If that sounds ridiculous it's because it is ridiculous, and nobody is going to believe what I say about the IPU just because I say it. You rightly reject what I say because there is no good reason to believe it.

Now transfer that thinking to God and maybe you'll get the point.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
I can say that the IPU did indeed create the universe..
One can say whatever they like..
The intention behind what somebody says is all important.

Perhaps you would like to tell us all about the messengers who were sent to mankind and their corresponding texts that teach all about this IPU ..what else do we no about it, other than it is pink? ;)
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Wikipedia

So here is my perfectly valid circular argument:

If the premise Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is true, then the conclusion God exists must be true.

Of course, since we can never prove the premise that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is true, then we can never assert the conclusion that God exists must be true. That is why it is called a belief and not a fact.

I do not refuse to prove that "Messengers" were messengers of God. I cannot prove that they were Messengers of God.
What, then, is the reason to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, and that the Abrahamic God exists? If that's all there is alone, why should one not believe Ron L Hubbard was a Messenger of Xenu and his own writings were true? It seems Ron L Hubbard and Baha'u'llah have the same amount of "evidence". Why do you have 'belief' in God and not in Xenu?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But I have 2 things to say about NDEs. First, not one person who "nearly" died actually did die. So an NDE can tell us something about what happens, perhaps, as the body and brain are shutting down, but not what happens when they have finally shut down.
That's true, those who have NDEs are not fully dead, and even if they were dead for a given amount of time, they were not dead long enough to cross over to the spiritual world. If they had crossed over they would not have been able to be revived.

Nobody knows what happens when a person actually crosses over to the spiritual world since that has never been revealed in any scriptures. There are some books about the afterlife but spirits who were communicated to my mediums always say that the spiritual world is too different from this world to be described such that we could understand, which is what Baha'u'llah wrote.

Personally, I think that is unfair of God not to tell us more about the spiritual world, especially for believers who have to believe and have faith, putting all their eggs in one basket.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
One can say whatever they like..
The intention behind what somebody says is all important.

Perhaps you would like to tell us all about the messengers who were sent to mankind and their corresponding texts that teach all about this IPU ..what else do we no about it, other than it is pink? ;)
Its farts create rainbows.

d21b35d6074ba1a4360b7152d7a69228.gif
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What, then, is the reason to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, and that the Abrahamic God exists? If that's all there is alone, why should one not believe Ron L Hubbard was a Messenger of Xenu and his own writings were true? It seems Ron L Hubbard and Baha'u'llah have the same amount of "evidence". Why do you have 'belief' in God and not in Xenu?
No, Ron L Hubbard and Baha'u'llah absolutely do not have the same amount of "evidence".
There is no evidence that indicates that Ron L Hubbard was anything but a man who wanted to get rich.
Ron L Hubbard did not even found a religion. Scientology is not a religion.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
My only error is continuing to post to certain atheists who keep saying the same things, over and over again.
Rats. I thought that you might be finally have seen the light.

You have been doing the same as claiming that 2 + 2 = 5 and complaining when people told you that the right answer is 4.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Good point. I've also wondered why the theists want to engage with unbelievers in these threads. The obvious answer would be to convert unbelievers, but they don't really seem to be trying to do that, and don't seem to be concerned that they have the opposite effect. So what then is the appeal for them? They don't seem to be interested in what the critical thinkers know or how they know it. But there is a sense that the faithful are drawn to them for something if not to learn or teach? I also like to construct and refine arguments, identify and name fallacies, and to practice writing skills, but I don't see any of those as draws for the believers.

I'll give you one reason, that I don't see here but was plainly described on another site I used to frequent. Here's the picture.

There are three groups of people, described as sheep, wolves and sheep dogs. The sheep are the regular believers, who may not be firm enough in their belief to resist the lies of the wolves (emissaries of Satan, like you and me). The sheep dogs protect the flock from the wolves. This is a necessary, God given task because the wolves can literally cause the sheep to end up in hell.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Rats. I thought that you might be finally have seen the light.

You have been doing the same as claiming that 2 + 2 = 5 and complaining when people told you that the right answer is 4.
The right answer is that God exists and Messengers of God who establish religions are the evidence.
No atheist has the "right answer" because if they did they would know that God exists, and they would recognize the evidence that God has provided. It is very simple math.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
No, Ron L Hubbard and Baha'u'llah absolutely do not have the same amount of "evidence".
They both have their Words/Writings/Scriptures.
They both have their followers (Ron L Hubbard has gathered, in a much shorter span of time, about half of what Baha'u'llah gathered)
They both claim to be Messengers.

What's the difference? :shrug:

There is no evidence that indicates that Ron L Hubbard was anything but a man who wanted to get rich.

And there is no evidence that indicates Baha'u'llah was anything but a man who wanted *insert any number of possible motivations behind starting a religion*.

Ron L Hubbard did not even found a religion. Scientology is not a religion.

Scientology is certainly a religion. It's recognized as one legally, it has its tenets, it has its spiritual beliefs, its followers, it churches. In what way is it not a religion?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Wikipedia

So here is my perfectly valid circular argument:

If the premise Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is true, then the conclusion God exists must be true.

Of course, since we can never prove the premise that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is true, then we can never assert the conclusion that God exists must be true. That is why it is called a belief and not a fact.

I do not refuse to prove that "Messengers" were messengers of God. I cannot prove that they were Messengers of God.
Which of course means that you do not have evidence either. That is the point.

Using a circular argument does not necessarily mean that you are wrong. You seem to understand that. But it is a waste of breath. It is a waste of bandwidth. It only takes up tome and tells others that the person using it does not understand logic. And if that is all that a believer has it is a good indication that that person is wrong. If one was right one would hope that one had at least some evidence for one's beliefs.

You just put your own beliefs in IPU territory.

d21b35d6074ba1a4360b7152d7a69228.gif
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The right answer is that God exists and Messengers of God who establish religions are the evidence.
No atheist has the "right answer" because if they did they would know that God exists, and they would recognize the evidence that God has provided. It is very simple math.
How can that be the "right answer"? You keep failing to show why anyone should believe that.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
That's true, those who have NDEs are not fully dead, and even if they were dead for a given amount of time, they were not dead long enough to cross over to the spiritual world. If they had crossed over they would not have been able to be revived.

Nobody knows what happens when a person actually crosses over to the spiritual world since that has never been revealed in any scriptures. There are some books about the afterlife but spirits who were communicated to my mediums always say that the spiritual world is too different from this world to be described such that we could understand, which is what Baha'u'llah wrote.

I know I've told these stories before, but I thought I'd share them again in response to your post.

I don't know anyone who has had a near-death experience, and I haven't either. I have, however, seen a person's spirit briefly leave their body and then return shortly after. I've seen this occur more than once while I've been in hospitals and nursing homes. I was present when my maternal grandmother passed away in the nursing home, and I saw her spirit leave her body moments after she died. I never told her while she was alive that I'm a psychic medium and I can communicate with the dead. So, she was astonished and perplexed to learn that I could see and communicate with her now that she was a spirit. She had confided in me before she died that she was at peace about dying, and she reassured me again in spirit. She told me that she could see a light and she could see my grandfather standing in the light. I told her that she should go see him, and she did. She crossed over peacefully. I was also present when my grandfather (her husband) died, and his reaction to my being able to see and communicate with him in spirit was the same as my grandmother's reaction. Not only was I present at their death and I communicated with them in spirit, I was also aware of their impending death before they died. And that wasn't the first time I knew when a relative had died, and I wasn't there to see it. I sensed when my husband's grandparents had passed away. I told my husband at the time, but I didn't tell anyone else in his family.

My maternal great-grandfather was very sick and died when I was 12 years old. I saw him shortly after he died. He died at home in his bed, surrounded by several loved ones. At the time of his death, I was staying with my paternal grandparents in the next town over. It was late and I was in bed. I suddenly woke up and my great-grandfather was standing in front of my bed, smiling at me. I got out of bed and went into the living room to tell my grandparents that my great-grandfather had passed away. They didn't know what to say at first and just gazed at me. My grandmother told me that I had been dreaming, and she told me to go back to bed. So, I did as she said and went back to bed. I sat up in bed and just watched my great-grandfather. He was sitting on the edge of my bed when I came back into the room. We didn't say anything to each other. I didn't know what to say anyway. We just stared at one another. I looked at the clock on the nightstand when I left the room to tell my grandparents that my great-grandfather had died. It was 9:15 PM.

I heard the phone ring about fifteen minutes after I returned to the bedroom. I heard my grandmother answer the phone and I could hear my aunt on the other line. My aunt has always talked in a loud voice because she is hard of hearing. My aunt called to tell my grandmother that my great-grandfather had passed away approximately 15 minutes earlier, and my aunt asked my grandmother to tell me in the morning. The bedroom I was in was right off of the living room, so I could hear the entire conversation. I got up and tip-toed to the door and peeked out through the crack in the door. I saw the look of shock on both of my grandparents' faces. I heard my grandmother whisper to my grandfather, "How did [my name] know that he passed away when she wasn't there?" My grandfather just shook his head and whispered back, "I don't know." I never heard either one of them mention what happened ever again.

My paternal grandmother passed away in June 2010, when I was 37 years old. She had passed away a couple of days after I saw her last in the nursing home. I knew that she had died when my uncle called to tell me and my husband. My husband and I attended her funeral at the church where she had been a long-time member. As I entered the sanctuary, I noticed my grandmother standing behind her coffin, looking around at her family and friends, as well as the other people who were already seated. As she was looking around, her eyes met mine and she smiled. I smiled back at her and went to sit down with my husband. He leaned over to me and whispered in my ear, "You can see her, can't you?" I nodded yes. I didn't speak to my grandmother until we were at the cemetery for the burial. I was concerned for her because she hadn't crossed over yet. After the service was over and everyone else was standing around talking, I caught my grandmother's eye and nodded to indicate to her that she should follow me. I walked quite a distance away and stood behind a tree so that I could speak with her without drawing any attention from the other people at the funeral.

Before I could say a word to her, she looked at me and quietly said, "I knew it." and I understood what she meant. She apologized for not talking to me about my psychic abilities earlier in my life, and she said that she regretted not intervening on my behalf when she knew about what I was going through at home. She said that she needed to explain herself, and I listened to her explanation. She asked me to forgive her, and I told her I had, which was the truth. I wanted her to be at peace so that she could crossover and not be stuck as an earthbound spirit. We spoke for a couple of more minutes, and then she crossed over. I haven't seen her spirit since.

Personally, I think that is unfair of God not to tell us more about the spiritual world, especially for believers who have to believe and have faith, putting all their eggs in one basket.

I've also spoken about my personal experiences as a psychic medium and how I've asked several human spirits about God, and the responses I received were either "Yes, God exists" or "No, God does not exist" or something to that effect. However, other spirits seemed confused about whether God existed or not, as well as whether heaven even existed, because they weren't in heaven yet and hadn't seen God, despite their belief that they would be with God in heaven after they died. Despite my efforts to uncover the truth, I've never received a definitive answer as to whether God is real or not. I have, however, had the impression that asking a question about whether God exists or not might be considered taboo because the question wasn't always well received when I asked. Some spirits I asked refused to answer questions about God or Jesus. They were either apprehensive to answer or were angry that I asked.

On the other hand, I've spoken with some earthbound human spirits who asked me questions like, "Where is God?" or "Why am I not in heaven yet?" About six years ago, I was involved in a paranormal investigation at the Hotel Galvez & Spa (in Galveston, Texas) with some paranormal investigators whom I personally knew. As we were walking down the hallway of the fourth floor with our spirit box turned on, we heard a spirit say, "Where is Jesus?" and another spirit anxiously say, "The children aren't in heaven yet!" One of the investigators suggested that these spirits may have been responding to my presence, but we didn't get any answers from either of these spirits when we asked them questions, such as if we could help them cross over. It's because of these experiences and many others that I no longer believe that human spirits either go to heaven or hell in the afterlife and are then eternally trapped there.
 
Last edited:
Top