Evil Is the Essence of Everything That Exists.

[Tumah]

This isn't my God, it's yours.

And he is only infinite relative to the universe.

Right, I meant, the G-d that you believe in.

Can you explain what it means that G-d is infinite relative to the universe. My understanding is that infinity is a state of being, not a subjective perspective.

As a pantheist, how do you explain that numbers have an aspect of the infinite- they progress in either direction, but people don't. If the universe is a manifestation of G-d, how can we explain this contradiction?

And a Gnostic pantheist, how do you explain the existence of "good" and "justice"? If we are a manifestation of G-d who is not "just" and "good", how can these concepts exist. Theoretically, someone whenever someone intentionally performs a good deed (as opposed to G-d, who's ignorance prevents him from being capable of such a feat), they would become an existence that is separate from G-d. How would they exist?

Correct. How could you call the creator of this universe intelligent let alone omniscient? How can we even think of him powerful let alone omnipotent. Just look at the world around you does it seem like it was created by an intelligent being. More like a blind idiot god than an omnipotent God.

Personally, this question doesn't bother me. If I were capable of comprehending the plan of an infinite Creator, it wouldn't be very infinite. So if there are things that I don't understand, it is easier for me to chalk it up to my own limitations, than to redefine G-d to fit the finite events that I perceive.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

By comparison to what? If God is inept at 'goodness' and we are inept at 'goodness' then what is it that IS NOT inept at goodness by which you are able to realize that we and God are inept?

The Pleroma.

Which responsibility of God's do you believe God is neglecting and what would things look like if God was not neglecting that thing?

His creation. Especially those which can evolve beyond their own limitations and grow into greater self-awareness and consciousness. He does not want to guide them or let them go any further, so he neglects them. I think it's intentional because he in a way fears they will grow beyond him.

As for how it would look? I don't know.

This is the thing. In order for God to be intentionally ignorant, you must be aware of something it SHOULD know that it is purposefully ignoring. What is that thing?

He is ignorant of many things but one of the main things he is refusing to acknowledge is his own Shadow aspect. He also refuses to acknowledge the existence of anything beyond himself. He believes that he is the only god and that there are no gods before him, after or above or below him.

 

[Sir Doom]

The Pleroma.

I don't know what that is.

His creation. Especially those which can evolve beyond their own limitations and grow into greater self-awareness and consciousness. He does not want to guide them or let them go any further, so he neglects them. I think it's intentional because he in a way fears they will grow beyond him.

As for how it would look? I don't know.

Then how would you know it isn't as it should be?

He is ignorant of many things but one of the main things he is refusing to acknowledge is his own Shadow aspect. He also refuses to acknowledge the existence of anything beyond himself. He believes that he is the only god and that there are no gods before him, after or above or below him.

Interesting. And what happens when God recognizes this shadow aspect as himself? We go from evil to what?

 

[StarryNightshade]

So what do you think?

Everything just is.

Nothing is inherently good or evil.

It's all how we perceive and experience things.

 

[Penumbra]

Everything just is.

Nothing is inherently good or evil.

It's all how we perceive and experience things.

I think for the most part, in reasonable circumstances, people do project their self onto their environment, and therefore the amount of beauty or ugliness in the world is a reflection of one's own filter rather than something about the world itself.

In extreme situations where an organism is dealing with great suffering, I think not. The biology of the body including brain anatomy evolved very specifically to dislike and avoid certain stimuli and to like others in order to survive and flourish, when working properly and when one doesn't devote a lifetime in peace within the right cultural system to trying to reprogram that biology. And yet the universe does quite often subject organisms in ways they cannot avoid, to those things they're programmed to experience suffering when subjected to. In addition to adult humans this includes children, other animals, and instances where individuals go mentally ill or commit suicide due to duration or magnitude of that suffering that they have not been able to escape from. So if the universe is thought of as conscious, that is a mostly objective statement regarding the nature of how things work sometimes, that it has instances where it produces creatures that are designed to suffer due to certain reasons and then gives a subset of organisms those reasons beyond their control to avoid, including past the breaking point for some of them.

This is why for the most part I don't like the words good and evil anyway. Their use is limited. Malevolent/benevolent and skillful/unskillful and logical/illogical and suffering/happiness are all more specific statements that have clearer definitions.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Why would you want to merge with mediocrity and ineptitude?

That would be hell! Anyways I am already part of the God of this world, my goal is to merge with the Pleroma.

 

[Straw Dog]

Gnostic mythology, and myth-making in general, is an entertaining and potentially insightful art form, but claiming that evil is literally the essence of everything that exists is a hard sell.

 

[YmirGF]

Gnostic mythology, and myth-making in general, is an entertaining and potentially insightful art form, but claiming that evil is literally the essence of everything that exists is a hard sell.

Especially when evil is simply a value judgement and therefore does not necessarily reflect reality as it is. If I were ever to see the world as essentially evil I think I'd decide to give my outlook a long, cold overhaul. Time to take out the trash...

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Maybe the problem is the lack of weight in the word "evil". What has been described as evil so far has simply meant inept.

I think a lot of us would have little problem with this thread if the wording replaced evil with something related to ignorance or ineptitude.

 

[arcanum]

Stop whining and work to repair something.

As in the kabbalistic approach tukkun olam, to repair the world? Interestingly the Kabballah or at least Lurianic Kabballah has a similar view that the Gnostics had, that something went wrong in the creation of this world. As a result of this imperfect creation, all of life is flawed and evil has a place here. I would call evil that which is cruel and unjust, pain, misery, malevolence, greed, selfishness etc. But unlike Issac Luria who believed the world could be repaired, the Gnostics felt the only escape from this doomed existence was self knowledge or gnosis. But I don't think either belief system would call the entire creation as evil, but rather it's a mixture of both light and dark, and it is one's endeavor to gather and resonate with the light while you are here.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Can you explain what it means that G-d is infinite relative to the universe. My understanding is that infinity is a state of being, not a subjective perspective.

If the universe is infinite then God is infinite. We do not know if the universe is infinite, it might not be (I don't think that it is). If the universe does not contain infinite amount of energy or mass then I would not say that your God is omnipotent or omniscient either.

And a Gnostic pantheist, how do you explain the existence of "good" and "justice"? If we are a manifestation of G-d who is not "just" and "good", how can these concepts exist. Theoretically, someone whenever someone intentionally performs a good deed (as opposed to G-d, who's ignorance prevents him from being capable of such a feat), they would become an existence that is separate from G-d. How would they exist?

Justice and goodness come from the Pleroma. God tried to create a simulacrum of the virtues of the Pleroma, but in his ignorance and ineptness he fails. That is why we only have half-arsed versions of goodness and justice in this world. Often our attempts to institute goodness and justice just create more evil and injustice.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I don't know what that is.

It is the Fullness of the Godhead. The God of this world is alienated from it. Which is why our world is filled with forlornness and alienation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleroma#Gnosticism

Then how would you know it isn't as it should be?

It is as the God of this world as made it. It is the inept creation of an inept creator.

Interesting. And what happens when God recognizes this shadow aspect as himself? We go from evil to what?

If God recognized and accepted his Shadow aspect then he would have wholeness.

 

[Tumah]

If the universe is infinite then God is infinite. We do not know if the universe is infinite, it might not be (I don't think that it is). If the universe does not contain infinite amount of energy or mass then I would not say that your God is omnipotent or omniscient either.

I hear you. I'm not sure why you keep saying my G-d. I'm not a Gnostic.

Justice and goodness come from the Pleroma. God tried to create a simulacrum of the virtues of the Pleroma, but in his ignorance and ineptness he fails. That is why we only have half-arsed versions of goodness and justice in this world. Often our attempts to institute goodness and justice just create more evil and injustice.

What about when our attempts to institute goodness and justice don't create evil and injustice?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I hear you. I'm not sure why you keep saying my G-d. I'm not a Gnostic.

I don't worship the creator god, you do.

What about when our attempts to institute goodness and justice don't create evil and injustice?

Name one. Name one human institution that is wholly good or just.

 

[Tumah]

I don't worship the creator god, you do.

Yes, but I don't worship that one.
Using your logic, I can just as easily be a Hindu, or Christian, when the only point that my belief is similar to those religions is in the Creator aspect.

Name one. Name one human institution that is wholly good or just.

I can name a number of individuals who were beyond exemplary in character and perhaps you can too. But I think the important part is that even those who are not so perfect, are not lacking perfection because of stupidity but because of competing desires that trip them. This doesn't seem to parallel what you are saying about G-d.

 

[Nakosis]

Yes, but this goes with my ideology of Evil being the absence of God or the illusion of it. I believe there is a amoral entity that caused the creator. This is what I really mean by "God", not the creator of this universe but the creator's source.

I don't know if God in this sense can be considered existent? Maybe not as far as this universe goes. So within this universe everything that exists is the result of the absence of God. So... evil.

For me this is "So what" we deal with it. This is the reality of our experience but we can choose the role we play in it. Good and bad are relative to the roll we play. The role we do play has no effect on the essence of God.

 

[Sir Doom]

It is the Fullness of the Godhead. The God of this world is alienated from it. Which is why our world is filled with forlornness and alienation.

Pleroma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How did that happen?

It is as the God of this world as made it. It is the inept creation of an inept creator.

Again, how do you know it is inept if you can't even imagine what its supposed to be like under a non-inept creator?

If God recognized and accepted his Shadow aspect then he would have wholeness.

And this wholeness (that is recognizing and embracing this shadow aspect) is supposed to result in something good? It seems a lot more like it would result in unimaginable horror. If the being is unconsciously evil and responsible for the horror of this life out of a lack of realization. I can't imagine that such a being suddenly recognizing that it is evil and embracing that evil is going to improve things for us. It sounds like step 1 before an eternity of pain and suffering.

 

[John Doe]

If God recognized and accepted his Shadow aspect then he would have wholeness.

Is it possible, in your view, for you to recognise the Shadow and experience the resulting wholeness, then continue to live in a universe where others were still in ignorance/denial, experiencing the 'inept creation' ?

In other words, is this a Cosmic Realisation which would change all of reality for all beings, or a mythology/theology which is about the potential of individual human beings ?

Forgive me if that sounds like a silly question, but I thought it would give you the opportunity to make this distinction explicit.

 

[Willamena]

If God recognized and accepted his Shadow aspect then he would have wholeness.

No, if he did he would be the Shadow aspect. He has to remain recognizeless and acceptless.

 

[steeltoes]

I thought it read that Elvis was the Essence, oh well.