Evolution is False and Impossible

[Autodidact]

just like everything else. he said BECOME and we became.

but i am convinced you meant to ask FROM WHAT he created us right?

O.K., so we agree that Allah created us, and your hypothesis is that He did so by magic poofing, and mine by the process described in ToE.

Your approach is to accept what is written in a particular holy book as a description of how the natural world works, and mine is to use science. I think our experience is that science is the best way to learn about the natural world. You are arguing against science, and in favor of religion, as a way to learn about the world. (not about God, but the world He created.)

btw, to reduce my ignorance, could you quote for me briefly what the Q'uran says about how Allah created living species? Thanks.

no it says that we were created perfectly, a perfect design. we did not elvolve, the "we have not evolved fom monkeys" part is from me, my words.

What does it say?

no science is from god, but scientists are twisting the reality due to them not wanting proof to lead to the notion that GOD EXISTS. and he created us, thus the THEORY of "evolution" came to be. to lead people astray from god.

So you think science is a good way to learn about the world, or a bad way?

Do you understand that science is a method only? Do you know what that method is?

 

[Autodidact]

i do not know, i'm not god to decide who will go to hell and who wont. if god wishes, he can forgive the sinns of the most sinful person to have ever lived on earth, no one can question him.

So why did you say this theory leads people to hell, if you don't know anything about it? Is it your practice to go around stating things you don't know to be true?

but god says he created us in a perfect form (not through evolution) so this is probably why it is mentioned, god knew that people will get tricked by the evolution theory so he states it in his book so that those who do believe in evolution do not have an excuse in judgement day.

Could you cite the verses please? I'm not very familiar with the Q'uran. I've never read it, not even in English.(see how easy it is to admit your ignorance? That didn't hurt at all. Have you ever read a Biology book?)

 

[Gharib]

O.K., so we agree that Allah created us, and your hypothesis is that He did so by magic poofing, and mine by the process described in ToE.

but if you agree that Allah (swt) created us, then you cannot accept evolution. it is in contradiction to how god created us.

Your approach is to accept what is written in a particular holy book as a description of how the natural world works, and mine is to use science. I think our experience is that science is the best way to learn about the natural world. You are arguing against science, and in favor of religion, as a way to learn about the world. (not about God, but the world He created.)

see just like i said, scientists are being deceitfull in their findings that lead to god. in islam which is the law of god, science is a big part of that law of Allah (swt). but scientists have made it so, that science and religion are not compatible because a great deal of evidence lead to god including the ToE being false. so when something new comes along that points directly to god, scientists change that and thats why a great deal of scientists are atheists.

islam is all about facts. it's not like christianity or other religions. christianity and science are mutually in-exclussive, but not in islam.

infact the quran is a starting point of many scientific branches such as geology, astronomy, weather forcasting (well studying), biology and some others but i don't know what they are called in english.

btw, to reduce my ignorance, could you quote for me briefly what the Q'uran says about how Allah created living species? Thanks.

no worries, give me 10 minutes.

What does it say?

that adam was the first human to be created from a drop of water, clay, and a clot of blood.

So you think science is a good way to learn about the world, or a bad way?

good of course, it is a major part of islam, i can't be a muslim if i denied science.

Do you understand that science is a method only? Do you know what that method is

by method you mean trying to prove things, and not believe in things that can't be proven right? if not then you lost me.

 

[Gharib]

here are some of the verses that spek about creation in the quran;

[16:4] He created the human from a tiny drop, then he turns into an ardent opponent.

this verse speaks about the drop of water.

[96:1] Read, in the name of your Lord, who created.
[96:2] He created man from an embryo.

this speaks about the blood clot, or embryo, i assume they are the same thing.

[32:7] He is the One who perfected everything He created, and started the creation of the human from clay.

and this one is about the clay.

 

[Breathe]

but if you agree that Allah (swt) created us, then you cannot accept evolution. it is in contradiction to how god created us.

But why?

Why would God care or send us to hell for it?

 

[Gharib]

But why?

Why would God care or send us to hell for it?

ok, let me try to use an example.

if i say i will only pay the workers that actually work, will you then work or will you not work?

we are ungratefull to god, was it you who wanted to know the meaning of the verse that says mountains did not accept the free will offer but man did? i think it may have been kai.

 

[Breathe]

ok, let me try to use an example.

if i say i will only pay the workers that actually work, will you then work or will you not work?

Naturally, I'd work. Yet, this isn't really related to evolution?

we are ungratefull to god, was it you who wanted to know the meaning of the verse that says mountains did not accept the free will offer but man did? i think it may have been kai.

I have no idea what you're on about here?

 

[Gharib]

Naturally, I'd work. Yet, this isn't really related to evolution?

well it kind of is related to your question.

but if you want to speak about evolution then thats fine.

god says he created us, in one verse he says we will be gods representatives on earth. meaning we are supperior to all the other creatures, meaning we did not evolve, due to god himself saying that he create us from clay and water. and ToE states that it works through natural selection, meaning god does not exist, it is not him who calls the shots, it is nature who gets to decide what lives and what dies. totally contradicting god.

I have no idea what you're on about here?

nah don't worry about it, it must have been kai that asked about that verse.

 

[Autodidact]

but if you agree that Allah (swt) created us, then you cannot accept evolution. it is in contradiction to how god created us.

This is your first mistake. I am agreeing (for the purpose of this thread) that Allah created all things, including us. Science cannot address that. Science, including ToE, only gets at how. We are not arguing about who, but how. This is very basic, a fundamental of science. It's not about God. You need to grasp this before we can go forward.

see just like i said, scientists are being deceitfull in their findings that lead to god.

Scientists have nothing to say about God, qua scientists. Someone has been deceitful to you, eselam, and it's not scientists. Science is silent concerning anything about God.

in islam which is the law of god, science is a big part of that law of Allah (swt). but scientists have made it so, that science and religion are not compatible because a great deal of evidence lead to god including the ToE being false. so when something new comes along that points directly to god, scientists change that and thats why a great deal of scientists are atheists.

Scientific evidence, by its nature, cannot point either to or away from God. Science isn't about God; it's about nature. Until you understand this, you are on the wrong track. Someone has been lying to you.

O.K., great, you're in favor of science. But you hate Biology?

Do you understand that science is a method?

islam is all about facts. it's not like christianity or other religions. christianity and science are mutually in-exclussive, but not in islam.

Great. Excellent. Now would you like to learn what science says about how we get different species?

infact the quran is a starting point of many scientific branches such as geology, astronomy, weather forcasting (well studying), biology and some others but i don't know what they are called in english.

Great. So you agree that science is a good way to learn about the natural world?

that adam was the first human to be created from a drop of water, clay, and a clot of blood.

Verse?

good of course, it is a major part of islam, i can't be a muslim if i denied science.

Well that's exactly what you're doing here--denying science.

by method you mean trying to prove things, and not believe in things that can't be proven right? if not then you lost me.

Not exactly. I'll take the time to explain it in more detail in a bit. Meanwhile, here's some links.

 

[Breathe]

well it kind of is related to your question.

Ahh, ok.

god says he created us, in one verse he says we will be gods representatives on earth. meaning we are supperior to all the other creatures, meaning we did not evolve,

Isn't that a large jump? Could this not mean we are superior to other creatures because we have a conscience and can act with compassion and mercy as well as think abstractly, worship, given free will, and the most advanced species on Earth - the only species that has advanced technology, skyscrapers, internet (unless those ants have something they aren't telling us!)

due to god himself saying that he create us from clay and water.

Clay = carbon
water = hydrogen?

Isn't that possible?

and ToE states that it works through natural selection, meaning god does not exist, it is not him who calls the shots, it is nature who gets to decide what lives and what dies. totally contradicting god.

Not at all, because God could still call the shots and evolve us into a way that pleases him.

Creatures go to the fittest animal, animals also adapt to new enviroments and new situations, a child is 1/2 of its parents, new breeds of dogs appear because of specific selection, and people have different skin tones. This is not insulting to God.

 

[Autodidact]

What I'm trying to get across, eselam, is that you can't consistently say: "I'm in favor of science and against ToE." These two sentences contradict each other. ToE is basic science, one of the most robust and strongly supported theories in all of science, fundamental to all modern Biology. If you apply the scientific method to the question of how we get different species (which is what ToE addresses) you get ToE.

So, for you, to be a good Muslim, you must accept ToE. According to you, eselam, not me. I don't know what makes a good Muslim; I leave that to you. But I do know about science, and science says ToE is correct.

 

[Gharib]

Isn't that a large jump? Could this not mean we are superior to other creatures because we have a conscience and can act with compassion and mercy as well as think abstractly, worship, given free will, and the most advanced species on Earth - the only species that has advanced technology, skyscrapers, internet (unless those ants have something they aren't telling us!)

yes it is, but i probably should not have said it that way. it's not that we did not evolve due to us being gods representatives, but because god says we have been created gradualy but not in the way ToE explains.

Clay = carbon
water = hydrogen?

Isn't that possible?

were you meant to say "is that possible?"

god is the most high, he has power over everything, we only know about that wich god has permited us to know. we cannot find the corners of the universe if god does not allow it.

Not at all, because God could still call the shots and evolve us into a way that pleases him.

yes he could he is the most powerfull, but he clearly states everything in contrary to ToE. i'm not saying that evolution id not from because i want to say so, but because god says so. if it said that ToE is real i would believe it.

Creatures go to the fittest animal, animals also adapt to new enviroments and new situations, a child is 1/2 of its parents, new breeds of dogs appear because of specific selection, and people have different skin tones. This is not insulting to God.

i don't think it is, he created us.

 

[Gharib]

What I'm trying to get across, eselam, is that you can't consistently say: "I'm in favor of science and against ToE." These two sentences contradict each other. ToE is basic science, one of the most robust and strongly supported theories in all of science, fundamental to all modern Biology. If you apply the scientific method to the question of how we get different species (which is what ToE addresses) you get ToE.

So, for you, to be a good Muslim, you must accept ToE. According to you, eselam, not me. I don't know what makes a good Muslim; I leave that to you. But I do know about science, and science says ToE is correct.

so what if ToE ends up being false?

i mean what if this is just another trial and error experiment, and when the day finally comes, the finger will be pointing to god and ToE will be just another thing of the past. you see us muslims do not take chances in things that men have no clue about. if men had a clue about ToE then it would have been known since the very first self concious creature was created. from all theve evolvations and mutations. am i not correct?

 

[Gharib]

well guys i'm out for today, well night here where i am. i'll see you all later.

 

[Autodidact]

yes he could he is the most powerfull, but he clearly states everything in contrary to ToE. i'm not saying that evolution id not from because i want to say so, but because god says so. if it said that ToE is real i would believe it.

Could you cite the verse?

i don't think it is, he created us.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself. Yes, He created us. We acknowledge that. What we're talking about is how. NOT WHO, HOW. Have you grasped this simple point yet?

 

[Autodidact]

so what if ToE ends up being false?

Then science will change its position. Meanwhile, after 150 years of tough scrutiny, it has passed the test of scientific skepticism to be accepted as the basis for modern Biology.

i mean what if this is just another trial and error experiment, and when the day finally comes, the finger will be pointing to god and ToE will be just another thing of the past. you see us muslims do not take chances in things that men have no clue about. if men had a clue about ToE then it would have been known since the very first self concious creature was created. from all theve evolvations and mutations. am i not correct?

You're trying my patience. Are you stubborn, stupid, or what? Yes, the finger points to God. We accept that. (for the purpose of this thread.) Now, what means did Allah use to create us? Did He magically poof us into existence, or did he set up evolution to do it for Him?

Once again you're arguing against scientific knowledge, which you say you're in favor of. What you're saying is that we can never learn everything new. If we didn't know it from the beginning, we can never discover it. That is the exact opposite of science, which is all about learning new things. Also, of course, obviously, you're wrong. You're not trying to assert that everything that science knows now, we have always known? Relativity? Atomic theory? Germs?

 

[Autodidact]

well guys i'm out for today, well night here where i am. i'll see you all later.

:banghead3:

 

[Jose Fly]

Eseleam seems to be the Muslim version of the mindset expressed by the fundamentalist Christians at AnswersinGenesis in their Statement of Faith:

By definition, no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record.

Just substitute "Quran" for "Scriptural record" and voila!

So when Eselam says "I'm in favor of science", he means "I'm in favor of science, and by "science" I mean only that which agrees with and supports the Quran".

 

[Autodidact]

In other words, by "I'm in favor of science" he means "I'm opposed to science."

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"Eseleam seems to be the Muslim version of the mindset expressed by the fundamentalist Christians at AnswersinGenesis in their Statement of Faith:"

Indeed it is exactly the same and stems from the same absolutist position.

We are Right. Absolutely right w/o possibility of error. If you disagree you are wrong at best Evil to worst quite possibly both. In any event the sooner we are rid of you the better.