EVOLUTION, what a lie.

[Jose Fly]

Even if someone here had the nerve to say that they actually watched a species evolve into something else right in front of their own eyes, you still couldn't prove it

I told you earlier that the new species of Tragopogon evolved right in my neck of the woods. I've seen them and participated in scientific studies of them. In essence, you responded by calling me a liar.

But then, that's honestly what I've come to expect from Muslims. Earlier in this thread someone said something like, "The Muslims in this thread aren't typical of all Muslims". I beg to differ. It's been my experience that the behavior of Muslims in this thread is pretty much how every Muslim I've ever encountered reacts upon being presented with data that contradicts their beliefs.

This thread is a pretty good testament to why Islam is going to have to be dragged, kicking and screaming into the modern world.

 

[painted wolf]

And with your own eyes and my own eyes and anyone's eyes, no one has ever witnessed a species evolve into another.

but they have seen it. And are still seeing and recording it.

So to say that a species evolved into another because a scientist said so is not proof. You are going off of heresay. It's no different than me saying that Allah exists because someone, somebody, or masses of people said that they saw him. It's heresay. It's not proof. How exactly do you know if they are telling the truth, especially if you yourself haven't seen it?

Because I can check their research... I can see the genetic tests that were done and if I wanted I could go and check it myself.

Even if someone here had the nerve to say that they actually watched a species evolve into something else right in front of their own eyes, you still couldn't prove it. How do I know if your telling the truth?

You would be able to look at my work and my evidence.... read what I did and where and for how long... and if you wanted you could replicate it yourself.
Scientists are very keen to look at one another's work and point out any flaws.
If you wanted, you could do what I did with bacteria and see with your own eyes. You don't have to trust me to tell the truth because you can test it.

Again, it does not mean that it did not happen, it just means that you can not prove that it happened. Do you get it? You may be a biologist. You say you are a biologist. But you can't prove it to me. I'm not saying that your not one, I'm just saying that right now, as we speak, you can't prove it to me or anyone else unless we actually SEE you in action.

I can in a way see where you are coming from.... but I should also point out that scientists never work alone... they work in pairs or teams of many many people. In many of these cases it isn't just one person saying what they saw but many. I did my experiment with bacteria with a team of four people and there were four other teams of four replicating it at the same time.

Then we also have the problem as to, if scientists claim that they have actually seen a species evolve into another, why the masses of people have not seen this form of evolution in the animals around them?

Most people don't know what to look for... Some of it requires genetic testing, something that the average person can't easily do on their own... A lot of it takes years of dedication out in the wild places of the world where average people don't go. Evolution can also take generations to track... which is why keeping good records is key.
If you want to learn what to look for and how to look for it, I would be glad to give you some pointers.
The masses have never seen a virus or an atom either... some things are harder to see than others.

Here we understand that Allah is the creator so all diversity was created by him. Originated by him. Then we are specifically told that in every one of Allah's creation is a Sign that let's us know how it was created.

And from everything I've seen the "how it was created" was through evolution... a truly awesome and magnificent method for him to use.

Therefore, if evolution was the cause, we all would be able to "SEE" it within any creation. That is not the case, therefore it is indeed a lie.

I honestly think that if you were to actually look, you would see it.

I don't know why you are so against evolution as the tool of Creator(Allah) to form life... I could guess, but that wouldn't entirely be fair to you... but I do know that something about evolution bothers you deeply, enough that you close your eyes to the evidence and IMHO to have made some confusing justifications for it.

wa:do

 

[Magic Man]

Response: I never said that it was the definition of the Theory of Evolution so your point is irrelevant.

Yes, you did, when you used the other definition in a discussion about the ToE. Don't backpedal now. You brought in another definition as if it had any bearing on a discussion about the ToE. You can't simply say you didn't now.

 

[Magic Man]

Response: "Could" is not the same as "Can". So you have no proof.

Yes, it is. You can see the same things as a biologist, if you want to. So, yes, I do have some proof. Simply saying I don't isn't going to change anything.

Response: Yes, it is.

Well done. However, you're still wrong.

 

[Magic Man]

Response: When you believe in the Theory of Evolution despite the simple fact that you have never actually seen a species evolve into another, it not only becomes clear where the ignorance lies but a serious case of brainwashing.

Or, alternately, when you accept the ToE because of the overwhelming evidence in its favor, and the fact that you can actually see it happen, it becomes clear not only where the ignorance lies, but also a serious case of brainwashing.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE painted wolf]but they have seen it. And are still seeing and recording it.(End quote)

Response: Prove it.

(/Quote Painted Wolf)
And from everything I've seen the "how it was created" was through evolution... a truly awesome and magnificent method for him to use.(End quote)

Response: Prove it.
(/Quote Painted Wolf)
I don't know why you are so against evolution as the tool of Creator(Allah) to form life... I could guess, but that wouldn't entirely be fair to you... but I do know that something about evolution bothers you deeply, enough that you close your eyes to the evidence and IMHO to have made some confusing justifications for it.

wa:do[/QUOTE]

Response: Nothing is confusing nor am I against it. It simply never happened and never happens.

 

[Fatihah]

Yes, you did, when you used the other definition in a discussion about the ToE. Don't backpedal now. You brought in another definition as if it had any bearing on a discussion about the ToE. You can't simply say you didn't now.

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof?

 

[Fatihah]

[/QUOTE mball129]Yes, it is. You can see the same things as a biologist, if you want to. So, yes, I do have some proof. Simply saying I don't isn't going to change anything.(End quote)

Response: The word "could" is the same word as "can"? They have two different meanings. This is simple english and you didn't even know. Yes, thank you for clarifying how logical and sensible you are.

 

[painted wolf]

Prove it.

See, this is exactly what I was talking about.
I have given you several examples of witnessed evolution already.

Nothing is confusing nor am I against it. It simply never happened and never happens.

You are... it's like you are just shutting down from discussion and retreating back to an earlier position while ignoring everything that was said to you previously.

I wish I understood what bothered you so much... but I can only go so far in sharing information if you continue to choose to ignore it.

If denying evolution is the only thing that will bring you peace, then I will respect that as much as I can... But if that is so, then you may want to ignore discussions on evolution in the future.

wa:do

 

[Fatihah]

Or, alternately, when you accept the ToE because of the overwhelming evidence in its favor, and the fact that you can actually see it happen, it becomes clear not only where the ignorance lies, but also a serious case of brainwashing.

Response: All of this coming from a person who believes that "could" and "can" mean the same thing. Yes, we can clearly see where the ignorance lies and a serious case of brainwashing.

 

[Fatihah]

See, this is exactly what I was talking about.
I have given you several examples of witnessed evolution already.


You are... it's like you are just shutting down from discussion and retreating back to an earlier position while ignoring everything that was said to you previously.

I wish I understood what bothered you so much... but I can only go so far in sharing information if you continue to choose to ignore it.

If denying evolution is the only thing that will bring you peace, then I will respect that as much as I can... But if that is so, then you may want to ignore discussions on evolution in the future.

wa:do

Response: And that's exactly what I'm talking about. I specifically asked you to prove that people have witnessed evolution and this was your answer:

"See, this is exactly what I was talking about.
I have given you several examples of witnessed evolution already."

Exactly my point. This is not proof. This is just a statement saying that you have provided proof. Saying that you have provided proof is not proof. You know this already. You are in complete denial to say otherwise.

This confirms that you have no proof and is in complete denial of it.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Guys you are not seeing the muslim's point. You are making the same mistake with him you make with Christian fundies; failing to appreciate how important this "faith" is to them. It defines their lives. They eat sleep and play according to its precepts. They will abandon their children before they abandon their faith. If their holy book is not the WOG perfect in every respect down the to last comma then it is false. If you can doubt god created everything in one act of magic then you can doubt ANYTHING in the whole text. And to doubt is the same as disbelieve.

See #1462 above.

And if you want a Christian expression of the same mindset here. Start about minute 5 and listen until about minute 8. You will get an real surprising punch line about 7:30.

That IS religious faith folks. And NO science will make ANY impression on it, nor will logic, nor will evidence.

 

[Jose Fly]

Omar,

Exactly. There is no point in presenting data to someone who will respond by simply saying "It's all a lie" every time. Even when I point out that I have witnessed it myself, I get called a liar.

Even though the Muslims are more extreme and more primitive about it, the mindset is the same as we've seen from more familiar Christian fundamentalists. Holy Book says X, therefore anything that contradicts X is wrong...period. No debate possible.

The only purpose this ridiculously long thread has served is to demonstrate just how backwards and primitive some Muslims are. It also serves as testament to why Islamic countries are so woefully behind the rest of the world in scientific progress.

 

[Autodidact]

Now this still leads to confusion when you say your assuming that Allah is the creator and that this assumption does not conflict with ToE. You can't provide proof based on an assumption because you don't even find what you are assuming to be true. So how can the evidence that follows be true?

I didn't understand what you said.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: Understood. And with your own eyes and my own eyes and anyone's eyes, no one has ever witnessed a species evolve into another.

This is what I mean by how much longer it makes the thread when I have to repeat myself. I have said at least 4 times, and given you cites, of specific instances in which we have seen exactly that. You are mistaken.

We can see evolution of all kinds. But not a species evolving into another. Knowing that a species evolved into another requires one thing...SIGHT. You do not have to be a biologists or scientist to see. So to say that a species evolved into another because a scientist said so is not proof. You are going off of heresay. It's no different than me saying that Allah exists because someone, somebody, or masses of people said that they saw him. It's heresay. It's not proof. How exactly do you know if they are telling the truth, especially if you yourself haven't seen it?

She has seen it. That's what she's trying to tell you.

Even if someone here had the nerve to say that they actually watched a species evolve into something else right in front of their own eyes, you still couldn't prove it.

Again, I don't know how much longer my patience can hold out. I think I'll resort to large colored fonts, because that is sometimes effective with a certain type of poster.

SCIENCE ISNT ABOUT PROOF. IT'S ABOUT EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE. NOT PROOF. EVIDENCE. YOU SHOULD BE ASKING FOR EVIDENCE, NOT PROOF.

Please don't make me say this again; I'm losing my patience.

How do I know if your telling the truth?

Again, probaby the 4th or 5th time I've said this: Because you can go and see it for yourself. That's how science works. No observation is permitted unless it's replicable. That means anyone who goes to the place, or performs the experiment, observes the same thing. There's no magic key; anyone can do it. That's part of how science works. Please don't make me repeat this.

That's the whole point. It doesn't mean that what they saw was not true, it just simply means that they can not prove it. No one hear can prove to someone what they can see without the other person actually seeing it. Again, it does not mean that it did not happen, it just means that you can not prove that it happened. Do you get it? You may be a biologist. You say you are a biologist. But you can't prove it to me. I'm not saying that your not one, I'm just saying that right now, as we speak, you can't prove it to me or anyone else unless we actually SEE you in action.

Atoms? Remember atoms?

Then we also have the problem as to, if scientists claim that they have actually seen a species evolve into another, why the masses of people have not seen this form of evolution in the animals around them?

Because, not being biologists, they haven't made it their life's work to look.

The common bird or cat and dog. Why are their people who have not seen this evolvement in them?

We have seen, in human history, dogs evolve from this:

to this:

Maybe you just weren't looking.

Now from the muslim perspective, we can claim that whoever has the nerve to actually say that they've witnessed a species evolve into another is lying. Why? Because of the following:

"Verily, in the heavens and the earth are Signs for those who believe

And in your own creation and that of all the creatures which He spreads are Signs for a people who posses firm faith" ch.45:3,4

Exactly. Look and you will see the Signs. Actually look. Look at the evidence. It reveals Allah's creation--through evolution.

Also we read: "See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it? That surely, is easy for Allah

Say, Travel in the earth and see how he originated the creation. Then will Allah create the second creation. Surely, Allah has the power over all things" ch.29:19,20

"And thus do we make clear the Signs and that they may return" ch.7:174

Here we understand that Allah is the creator so all diversity was created by him. Originated by him. Then we are specifically told that in every one of Allah's creation is a Sign that let's us know how it was created. Therefore, if evolution was the cause, we all would be able to "SEE" it clearly and it would be clear and easy for us to know so within His creation. That is not the case, therefore it is indeed a lie.

And that is exactly what you see. You just have to look--with an open mind. If you decide in advance that all the Biologists are lying, you won't see what they have to show you.

 

[Fatihah]

Guys you are not seeing the muslim's point. You are making the same mistake with him you make with Christian fundies; failing to appreciate how important this "faith" is to them. It defines their lives. They eat sleep and play according to its precepts. They will abandon their children before they abandon their faith. If their holy book is not the WOG perfect in every respect down the to last comma then it is false. If you can doubt god created everything in one act of magic then you can doubt ANYTHING in the whole text. And to doubt is the same as disbelieve.

See #1462 above.

And if you want a Christian expression of the same mindset here. Start about minute 5 and listen until about minute 8. You will get an real surprising punch line about 7:30.

That IS religious faith folks. And NO science will make ANY impression on it, nor will logic, nor will evidence.

Response: What we see is the hypocrisy in your own logic. When a theist provides witness accounts of Jesus performing miracles...it's a lie.
When witness accounts are presented to prove the miracles of Moses....it's a lie.
Of Muhammad...it's a lie
Of Allah himself....it's a lie


But when a scentist says that they've seen something evolve...IT's TRUE!!!!

The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

 

[Fatihah]

Omar,

Exactly. There is no point in presenting data to someone who will respond by simply saying "It's all a lie" every time. Even when I point out that I have witnessed it myself, I get called a liar.

Even though the Muslims are more extreme and more primitive about it, the mindset is the same as we've seen from more familiar Christian fundamentalists. Holy Book says X, therefore anything that contradicts X is wrong...period. No debate possible.

The only purpose this ridiculously long thread has served is to demonstrate just how backwards and primitive some Muslims are. It also serves as testament to why Islamic countries are so woefully behind the rest of the world in scientific progress.

Response: And when a person not only lies about seeing a species evolve in front of their eyes, but does it so proudly and with confidence, it stands as a testament of their own vain desires. Especially when they try to display the other side of the argument as illogical when they are clearly the ones who are guilty of their own accusation.

 

[Jose Fly]

Fatihah,

So you believe Jesus performed miracles, was resurrected from the dead, walked the earth, and then ascended into heaven?

You believe Zeus, Hera, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, Thor, Vishnu, Shiva, etc. all exist and did all the things attributed to them by their followers?

You believe all the reincarnation stories of Hindus? Enlightenment accounts of Buddhists? Alien abduction accounts? UFO sightings? Visits by ghosts? People reading each others' minds? Government controlling our thoughts via electromagnetic waves?

Basically, you believe every single story any person has told as long as it involves an eye witness? Except accounts of the evolution of new species, of course.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

But when a scentist says that they've seen something evolve...IT's TRUE!!!!

Correct.

Simply because what a scientist says happens can be DUPLICATED.:shout If you don't believe it go make the observation or do the experiment yourself. You will get the same result.

But your moon story or the flying house bit, not so. Nobody and nothing but your book has EVER reported anything like that.

But, still real simple. If it happened - repeat it.

GO ahead do it again! Show us how it was done. Simple magic tricks are no problem for your invisible friend - just DO IT!

We are all breathless in anticipation.

(Yeah, I know god don't give free shows. Pay in advance with your life. THEN you can see it.)

Large pile of male bovine feces.

 

[Jose Fly]

Response: And when a person not only lies about seeing a species evolve in front of their eyes, but does it so proudly and with confidence, it stands as a testament of their own vain desires. Especially when they try to display the other side of the argument as illogical when they are clearly the ones who are guilty of their own accusation.

*shrug*

I'm a liar then. Fatihah has never met me and doesn't know the first thing about me, but is absolutely sure I'm a liar.

You guys may as well try and convince Fatihah et al. of the virtues of a roast pig barbecue with a keg and women wearing bikinis. You'd make about as much progress.