EVOLUTION, what a lie.

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE Autodidac]This is what I mean by how much longer it makes the thread when I have to repeat myself. I have said at least 4 times, and given you cites, of specific instances in which we have seen exactly that. You are mistaken.(End quote)

Response: Exactly. You've presented sites of scientists saying that they've seen evolution. That's not " PROOF." Simply saying that someone has seen evolution is not proof that it actually happened. To say otherwise is completely absurd.

(/Quote Autodidact)
She has seen it. That's what she's trying to tell you.(End quote)

Response: You don't know what someone else has seen.

(/Quote Autodidact)
Again, I don't know how much longer my patience can hold out. I think I'll resort to large colored fonts, because that is sometimes effective with a certain type of poster.

SCIENCE ISNT ABOUT PROOF. IT'S ABOUT EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE. NOT PROOF. EVIDENCE. YOU SHOULD BE ASKING FOR EVIDENCE, NOT PROOF.

Please don't make me say this again; I'm losing my patience.(End quote)

Response: How hypocritical is this. You've been saying for the longest that you have proof then now you say it's not about proof.
And how on earth is it not about proof in a debate in which the point is to know the proof?

(Quote Autodidact)
Again, probaby the 4th or 5th time I've said this: Because you can go and see it for yourself. That's how science works. No observation is permitted unless it's replicable. That means anyone who goes to the place, or performs the experiment, observes the same thing. There's no magic key; anyone can do it. That's part of how science works. Please don't make me repeat this. Atoms? Remember atoms?
(End quote)

Response: And in response to you saying it for the 4th or 5th time, you can't see something that doesn't exist.
Because, not being biologists, they haven't made it their life's work to look.

We have seen, in human history, dogs evolve from this:

to this:

Maybe you just weren't looking.(End quote)

Response: That's not proof of evolution. Those are pictures of dogs and you saying that they evolved. That's not proof.

(/Quote Autodidact)
Exactly. Look and you will see the Signs. Actually look. Look at the evidence. It reveals Allah's creation--through evolution.(End quote)

Response: No, it doesn't.

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah,

So you believe Jesus performed miracles, was resurrected from the dead, walked the earth, and then ascended into heaven?

You believe Zeus, Hera, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, Thor, Vishnu, Shiva, etc. all exist and did all the things attributed to them by their followers?

You believe all the reincarnation stories of Hindus? Enlightenment accounts of Buddhists? Alien abduction accounts? UFO sightings? Visits by ghosts? People reading each others' minds? Government controlling our thoughts via electromagnetic waves?

Basically, you believe every single story any person has told as long as it involves an eye witness? Except accounts of the evolution of new species, of course.

Response: No. I believe anything that can be proven and ToE definately is not one of them.

 

[Autodidact]

Fatihah: No one has ever seen a new species evolve.
Painted Wolf: I have.
Fatihah. You're lying. Prove it. They couldn't have, because it doesn't happen. Therefore, if they say they did, they're lying.
Autodidact: Here are 31 separate instances of scientists seeing new species evolve.
Fatihah: They're all lying.
Jose Fly: Look, an elephant.

Fatihah: There is no elephant. The qu'ran says there are no elephants. Therefore there is no elephant. You cannot prove there is an elephant.
Autodidact: The qu'ran doesn't say that.
Fatihah: Here is this passage that says something else completely, but all true Muslims agree it means there are no elephants. I have never seen an elephant myself, so you can't prove there is such a thing as an elephant.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE OmarKhayyam]Correct.

Simply because what a scientist says happens can be DUPLICATED.:shout(End quote)

Response: Yes, it can. Not the case for ToE.

(/Quote OmarKhayyan)
If you don't believe it go make the observation or do the experiment yourself. You will get the same result.

(End quote)

Response: You can't observe something that doesn't exists.

(/Quote OmarKhayyan)
But your moon story or the flying house bit, not so. Nobody and nothing but your book has EVER reported anything like that.

But, still real simple. If it happened - repeat it.

GO ahead do it again! Show us how it was done. Simple magic tricks are no problem for your invisible friend - just DO IT!

We are all breathless in anticipation.

(Yeah, I know god don't give free shows. Pay in advance with your life. THEN you can see it.)

Large pile of male bovine feces.(End quote)


Response: I'm not a prophet, I can't perform miracles. But that is not proof that it didn't happen. However, unlike your inability to prove ToE, bringing the same illogical evidence as proof like "it's true because a science book or scientist told me so", the qur'an is an actual living miracle which can be tested at all times as proof of it's authentication and that test is presented in post 1392 of page 140. Go on...Take the test. You see, I don't have to tell you to go to someone else and observe anything. The proof is at your fingertips. Go on.

We muslims have been waiting for 1400+ years.

 

[Autodidact]

Fatihah: I don't know whether your problem is lack of intelligence, or your impervious reality shield. There's no point in talking to you if you can't understand what I am saying. I have said over and over and over again that science is about evidence, not proof. Every time you say proof, I say no, evidence. Evidence, not proof. Now you accuse me of lying, saying that I said I would provide proof. I never said that. Go back and find a post in which I offered proof. Unlike you, I will not accuse you of lying. I think that you actually think you are telling the truth. But your blinders cause you to read not what people actually say, but what you expect. It's the same with reality--you don't see what's there. You see what you expect to be there.

Now, either cite a post where I said I would prove evolution, or retract your slander. If you do neither, then there is one liar in this thread, and it's not me, painted wolf, or Jose Fly.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: What we see is the hypocrisy in your own logic. When a theist provides witness accounts of Jesus performing miracles...it's a lie.
When witness accounts are presented to prove the miracles of Moses....it's a lie.
Of Muhammad...it's a lie
Of Allah himself....it's a lie

Did I say it was a lie?

But when a scentist says that they've seen something evolve...IT's TRUE!!!!

The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

I can't do it any more. I can't say the same things over and over and over again. YOu will be the first creationist I've given up on. You are incapable of learning. *sigh*

NOT ONE SCIENTIST. EVERY SCIENTIST. EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO ACTUALLY EXAMINES THE ORGANISM. YOU CAN DO IT TOO. THERE'S NO ONE TO STOP YOU. GO AND LOOK. YOU WILL SEE THE SAME THING. THIS IS THE TEST THAT EVERY BIT OF SCIENTIFIC DATA MUST PASS.

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah: I don't know whether your problem is lack of intelligence, or your impervious reality shield. There's no point in talking to you if you can't understand what I am saying. I have said over and over and over again that science is about evidence, not proof. Every time you say proof, I say no, evidence. Evidence, not proof. Now you accuse me of lying, saying that I said I would provide proof. I never said that. Go back and find a post in which I offered proof. Unlike you, I will not accuse you of lying. I think that you actually think you are telling the truth. But your blinders cause you to read not what people actually say, but what you expect. It's the same with reality--you don't see what's there. You see what you expect to be there.

Now, either cite a post where I said I would prove evolution, or retract your slander. If you do neither, then there is one liar in this thread, and it's not me, painted wolf, or Jose Fly.

Response: What is this, some kind of mind game? First of all, I didn't call you a liar. I said you are being hypocritical. I'm asking for proof of ToE. What on earth did you think I was doing this whole time? Then when I asked for proof, you responded to that request. Therefore, you are providing proof. I've been saying the whole time that in order to know something evolved, you have to see it and no one has done that. This whole time here, and just in one of your last responses, you've been providing evidence to "PROVE" just that. So if I'm requesting proof that as to whether someone has seen evolution and you answer that you have it, then your providing PROOF.
You asked for a post as proof, well out of the many, here's one:
Post 1300 of page 130.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE Autodidact]Did I say it was a lie?(End quote)

Response: No. I never said you did.

(/Quote Autodidact)
I can't do it any more. I can't say the same things over and over and over again. YOu will be the first creationist I've given up on. You are incapable of learning. *sigh*

NOT ONE SCIENTISTS. EVERY SCIENTIST. EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO ACTUALLY EXAMINES THE ORGANISM. YOU CAN DO IT TOO. THERE'S NO ONE TO STOP YOU. GO AND LOOK. YOU WILL SEE THE SAME THING. THIS IS THE TEST THAT EVERY BIT OF SCIENTIFIC DATA MUST PASS.[/QUOTE]

Response: There's the statement. Yet we don't have the proof. You can't see something that doesn't exist.

 

[JMorris]

You can't see something that doesn't exist.

truer words were never spoken........... you could build a number of iron houses from the vastness of this irony.

 

[McBell]

Response: Exactly. You've presented sites of scientists saying that they've seen evolution. That's not " PROOF." Simply saying that someone has seen evolution is not proof that it actually happened. To say otherwise is completely absurd.

You have just eliminated every single eye witness account.
There goes your koran as proof.

Response: How hypocritical is this. You've been saying for the longest that you have proof then now you say it's not about proof.
And how on earth is it not about proof in a debate in which the point is to know the proof?

Define proof.

(

Response: That's not proof of evolution. Those are pictures of dogs and you saying that they evolved. That's not proof.

Now you grasp your straws even tighter.

Response: No, it doesn't.

It does for those who are actually interested in the truth.

 

[McBell]

You can't see something that doesn't exist.

Wrong.
Hallucinations...
Delusions...
Dreams...

 

[Autodidact]

Response: What is this, some kind of mind game? First of all, I didn't call you a liar. I said you are being hypocritical. I'm asking for proof of ToE. What on earth did you think I was doing this whole time? Then when I asked for proof, you responded to that request. Therefore, you are providing proof. I've been saying the whole time that in order to know something evolved, you have to see it and no one has done that. This whole time here, and just in one of your last responses, you've been providing evidence to "PROVE" just that. So if I'm requesting proof that as to whether someone has seen evolution and you answer that you have it, then your providing PROOF.
You asked for a post as proof, well out of the many, here's one:
Post 1300 of page 130.

This one:

YOU CAN GO AND SEE IT YOURSELF.

So this information on wiki is all false then?

Sorry, nothing about proof there.

What I provide is not proof; it is evidence. EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE.

I don't know how else to get this across to you. Science is about

EVIDENCE.
To others on the thread: How many times have I said this do you think?

Fatihah: Unless you can find a single post in which I offered to show you PROOF, not evidence but PROOF, you must either retract your statement or show yourself to be nothing but a liar.

To all others. I take it back. It's an intelligence problem. Lack.

 

[Autodidact]

[QUOTE Autodidact]Did I say it was a lie?(End quote)

Response: No. I never said you did.

(/Quote Autodidact)
I can't do it any more. I can't say the same things over and over and over again. YOu will be the first creationist I've given up on. You are incapable of learning. *sigh*

NOT ONE SCIENTISTS. EVERY SCIENTIST. EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO ACTUALLY EXAMINES THE ORGANISM. YOU CAN DO IT TOO. THERE'S NO ONE TO STOP YOU. GO AND LOOK. YOU WILL SEE THE SAME THING. THIS IS THE TEST THAT EVERY BIT OF SCIENTIFIC DATA MUST PASS.

Response: There's the statement. Yet we don't have the proof. You can't see something that doesn't exist.[/quote]

And by extension, if we do see it, it must exist. Therefore, either all the Biologists in the world are lying, or you are wrong. You are asking us to believe the former.

NOT PROOF. EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE EVIDENCE EVIDENCE.

 

[Fatihah]

Response: There's the statement. Yet we don't have the proof. You can't see something that doesn't exist.

And by extension, if we do see it, it must exist. Therefore, either all the Biologists in the world are lying, or you are wrong. You are asking us to believe the former.

NOT PROOF. EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE EVIDENCE EVIDENCE.[/QUOTE]

Response: And exactly what do they have evidence of? Is it evidence that ToE is true?

 

[painted wolf]

Response: And that's exactly what I'm talking about. I specifically asked you to prove that people have witnessed evolution and this was your answer:

"See, this is exactly what I was talking about.
I have given you several examples of witnessed evolution already."

Exactly my point. This is not proof. This is just a statement saying that you have provided proof. Saying that you have provided proof is not proof. You know this already. You are in complete denial to say otherwise.

This confirms that you have no proof and is in complete denial of it.

If this were a ride I'd be dizzy...

You spent 20 minutes hunting for some sort of "proof" that I was using evolution to disprove the existence of Creator.... and didn't find any. Yet you must have seen the links I provided time and again... but you choose to ignore them so that you can claim that I never gave them.
I have posted links to the E.coli long term evolution experiment, and a link to the "this week in Evolution" thread that itself has several examples in it... I'm not posting them again so that you can again ignore them... if you want them you can find them.

I get tired of having to post the same thing over and over.... I'm tired of having you lob one insult after another at me. (that I'm an atheist, that I'm lying and so on) When I have done none of these things to you.

I have tried to be respectful and understanding... but even I only have so much to give.
I respect your faith... but I don't have to respect your attitude.

Again, I don't know why Evolution scares you like it does... but if that is what you feel you must do to keep your faith, then so be it.
You deny all evidence of evolution, we all know and understand that.... perhaps it is time to move on?

I wish you luck on your journey, may your walk to Creators side be a pleasant one.

wa:do

 

[Autodidact]

So I take it that:

(1) You cannot find a post of me offering "proof" of anything.
(2) You have neither the courage nor the intellectual integrity to withdraw your inaccurate statement.

Thanks. That's all we needed to know about you.

 

[Autodidact]

And by extension, if we do see it, it must exist. Therefore, either all the Biologists in the world are lying, or you are wrong. You are asking us to believe the former.

NOT PROOF. EVIDENCE. EVIDENCE EVIDENCE EVIDENCE.

Response: And exactly what do they have evidence of? Is it evidence that ToE is true?[/quote]

Fatihah: I'm usually willing to go a long ways to explain things to creationists. But I can't explain the same thing to you five times, only to have you call it a lie. We're on page of this thread and you haven't even figured out yet that science is about evidence, despite having been patiently told at least ten times. I haven't even finished explaining the theory itself. When I began, you accepted each and every statement I made, and still managed to reject the only possible conclusion, which is that new species can evolve from older ones. That's like saying that you accept 2, and you accept 3, but you don't accept they make 5. When told they do, you call the people saying so liars. I can't do it any more. If anyone else can bear to talk to someone who is working as hard as they can not to either hear or understand you, more power to you. I give up.

Maybe I'll get a second wind and come back for more, and maybe I won't. It may depend on whether Fatihah demonstrates an iota of intellectual integrity. So far he has chosen not to.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE painted wolf]If this were a ride I'd be dizzy...

You spent 20 minutes hunting for some sort of "proof" that I was using evolution to disprove the existence of Creator.... and didn't find any. (End Quote)

Response: No. I spent 20 minutes looking for the post in which you said that science and God did not go together or something of that sort which I found. (Post 1187 of page 119)

(/Quote Painted Wolf)
Yet you must have seen the links I provided time and again... but you choose to ignore them so that you can claim that I never gave them.
I have posted links to the E.coli long term evolution experiment, and a link to the "this week in Evolution" thread that itself has several examples in it... I'm not posting them again so that you can again ignore them... if you want them you can find them.

I get tired of having to post the same thing over and over.... I'm tired of having you lob one insult after another at me. (that I'm an atheist, that I'm lying and so on) When I have done none of these things to you.

I have tried to be respectful and understanding... but even I only have so much to give.
I respect your faith... but I don't have to respect your attitude.

Again, I don't know why Evolution scares you like it does... but if that is what you feel you must do to keep your faith, then so be it.
You deny all evidence of evolution, we all know and understand that.... perhaps it is time to move on?

I wish you luck on your journey, may your walk to Creators side be a pleasant one.

wa:do(End quote)

Response: You have provided links. No one's denying that. Yet when asked if those links and the evidence is true, you've provided no proof as shown in post 1491 of page 150, thus confirming your denial.

I don't have a problem with accepting ToE if it's true and we can clearly see in post
1491 that you don't have any proof that it is. Thus the question to be asked is why are you holding on to a belief with no proof. I don't know why you can't let it go, especially being a theist. It doesn't jeapordize your knowledge of biology or anything yet you cling on to a belief that you know is not true. There is a reason why it's called a "theory". It's because it has not been proven to be true. There are biologist who say that the theory is not true. A "theory" means that it contains evidence that it may be true, but it's not actually a proven fact. So you're claiming something to be true that even scientist don't say is true.

However, if you wish to do so, I can't stop you. There's nothing wrong with being wrong. I wish you luck on your future endeavors as well.

Jazak'Allah

 

[JMorris]

Fatinah is a bold faced liar, he has shown this to be true time and time again. any time spent trying to have a conversation with him, any time at all, even just 1 second, is a complete waste of time. you'd literally, have a more valuable conversation with a cat, dog, hell, even GOD!

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE Autodidact]
/Quote Fatihah/
Response: And exactly what do they have evidence of? Is it evidence that ToE is true?[/quote]

Fatihah: I'm usually willing to go a long ways to explain things to creationists. But I can't explain the same thing to you five times, only to have you call it a lie. We're on page of this thread and you haven't even figured out yet that science is about evidence, despite having been patiently told at least ten times.(End quote)

Response: I never said it wasn't.

(/Quote Autodidact)
I haven't even finished explaining the theory itself. When I began, you accepted each and every statement I made, and still managed to reject the only possible conclusion, which is that new species can evolve from older ones. That's like saying that you accept 2, and you accept 3, but you don't accept they make 5.(End quote)

Response: No, it's not. A 2 and a 3 adds to 5, not evolve.

(/Quote Autodidact)
When told they do, you call the people saying so liars. I can't do it any more. If anyone else can bear to talk to someone who is working as hard as they can not to either hear or understand you, more power to you. I give up.

Maybe I'll get a second wind and come back for more, and maybe I won't. It may depend on whether Fatihah demonstrates an iota of intellectual integrity. So far he has chosen not to.(End quote)

Response: When you can't provide proof to back up your claims, it's clear as to who has chosen not to demonstrate an iota of intellectual integrity.