EVOLUTION, what a lie.

[Autodidact]

christianity and islam believe that god created us, we weren't formed by chance. nothing is formed by chance. i do not see how most people that i have met around in RF beleive that everything was created from chance. chance is nothing, it's a probability, now god, thats something. god has powers. chance has no powers. evolution starts of with chance and finishes with natural selection. believing in evolution is way more complicated than believing in god.

Fortunately, ToE doesn't depend on anything having been created by chance, so this is irrelevant. So, do you want to find out what the Actual ToE actually says, or would you prefer to keep battling against a theory that doesn't exist. btw, we have a name for this fallacy, it's called the "Strawman." You do know what a fallacy is, right?

 

[Autodidact]

oh i wonder which parts make sense. let me list a few:

1 bears became whales.

2 dinosaurs became birds because they were waving their arms around to kill flies.

3 chimps have 48 cromosomes and humas have 46, they must be related, just look at how close they are. here's the funny thing. humans have 46 cromosomes, potatoes have 46 cromosome. now why are humans related to monkeys and not to potatoes.

up to here none of these make sense. do you have any examples that actually do make sense. please list them.

Tell me something, have you ever taken a Biology class in your life?

If someone told you that Islam is false because it teaches that 97 djinns created the universe, and that Muslims are not allowed to marry, would that impress you much? Because that's what you sound like. In a nutshell, you have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Autodidact]

why should i give up. i'm just warming up. be patient. lets see how far we can take it. i'm surprised you didn't ask a question. considering that i do not know anything about evolution and you do. give us something smart.

If you'll stick around and learn, I'll be glad to teach you about the actual ToE. Or you can remain ignorant and fight a non-existent concept, it's really up to you.

 

[Autodidact]

sure heres one for you: Species Living in the Same Age as Their Ancestors

a gradual evolution from ape to man should have taken place and the fossil record of this should have been found. However, there is a huge gap between apes and humans.

Are you sure?

another significant finding proving that there can be no family tree among these different species is that the species that are presented as ancestors of each other in fact lived concurently.

according to estimates of evolutionists, Australopithencies lived from 4 million years ago to 1 million. homo habilis lived 1.7 - 1.9 million years ago. homo rudolfensis which are classied as more advanced that homo habilis lived 2.5 - 2.8 million years ago. so by those numbers Homo Rudolfensis are 1 million years older than Homo Habilis. thus the the ancestors of Homo Rudolfensis lived after the Homo Rudolfensis, thats like saying you are older than your grandfather but he just lived before you.

is that satisfying Darkendless.

Many Americans descended from English settlers. Yet there are still English people. How can this be? Do you see how empty your arguments are?

 

[Autodidact]

what do you mean thats not evolution, evolution meas something gradually evolving to something else. do you even have any knowledge of evolution, how can you say those 3 exapmles are not evolution.

i don't think we can go any further if you say that i'm not speaking of evolution. ask anyone on RF who has some knowledge about it and they'll tell you. evolution scientists believe in the 3 examples that i gave before. i'm not making them up. i don't want to be a liar.

Then stop lying.

 

[Gharib]

Well, not that I expect you to listen, but I'll give it a few minutes of my time.

thank you for it i appreciate that.

As I just said, evolution is just small changes in species to adapt to their environment. You already said that you know human beings' bodies adapt to their environments. That's all there really is to it. A species of fish at some point made its way into a marshy area to get away from predators, and eventually over many generations developped feet instead of fins to facilitate getting through all of the branches and clutter in the marshy living area. Then, after many more generations they adapted to living on land. And so on and so on.

Dinosaurs didn't turn into birds by flapping their arms. Some dinosaurs had wings, like the Pterodactyl. Others that evolved into flying creatures had the right body type, including light bones and light muscle structure.

Of course saying "A dinosaur became a bird" sounds ridiculous. It sounds as ridiculous as saying "My 6-year-old son became a lawyer". Of course, he was 26 when he became a lawyer, so there was a lot in between. Big changes occur in evolution, but only over long periods of time.

well look when i made those examples i didn't mean that they evolved overnight. but i just used them to show that it isn't logical to say that dinosaurs became birds. and thank you for the info.

 

[tomspug]

Awww... I liked this thread better when it was funny.

 

[Gharib]

Yes, you do believe in evolution. If you accept that human bodies adapt to their environment, you accept evolution. It's that simple.

the sort of adaptation i am speaking of are like me living in a foreign country, so i learn the language in order to live there, thus i am adapting to the environment that i live in. i do not mean that i start to live in trees and i will have to adapt to living in a tree after some milions of years.

You don't need to change your skeletal structure, but over many generations it might change to better suit that environment. Remember, evolution isn't something that just happens over a couple of years (at least not for species like humans). It takes hundreds and thousands of years to see even semi-major changes.

can i ask you when modern man remains have been found, the earliest.

And, by the way, you are some kind of animal. Humans are animals.

what???? no way.:no:, i've never been an animal nor will i ever be and neither were my ancestors. a clear distinguisher of animal and human is the brain. and ofcourse if one doesn't have a brain they are animals. well not so much a brain because even cows have a brain but the abillity to think, thats what i mean.

The point is that evolution doesn't say that you're going to change into something else in your lifetime. It says that if your environment changes drastically that future generations will change to fit it better. The changes won't be very noticeable until long after you're dead.

yes yes i know this, but i'm just messing with everyones mind when i say that changes happen in short periods of time. the thing is, ok i'll make some sort of an example, it may be dumb but anyway:

everyone beleives that humans will live in the moon in the near future, ok. so know you and i very well know that there is no oxygen, so i'll ask 2 questions know, this is the dumb part but it is related to the changes that you speak of;

some milions of years have past since the first humans on the moon, so

1 will they addapt to the environment, by changing so much that they will not be required to breathe oxygen, they will become breathless, but still alive. this is in a very long time frame, milions of years

OR

2 humans will become oxygen producers, meaning they will not require special masks or trees or anything that produces oxygen since they will be the source. this is kind of like the first one, but anyway.

I didn't say it wasn't a big change. In fact, I've said that it's not. I said species change in small ways until it adds up to a big change (sometimes) after many generations. Of course going from an ape similar to a gorilla to a modern human is a big change, but it happened over the course of millions of years, and it happened in tiny stages of small changes. It wasn't like, all of a sudden *poof*, one day it's a gorilla, the next day it's a human.

ok the one thing i don't get is this; why did all the apes suddenly change a little bit (after many generations) then after the first change why did all the other creatures (the half human half ape) suddenly make the second change all at the same time, after many generations. what i'm trying to say is that why do all the transitional forms. have aspecific time frames into which they can be found. lets say homo habilis existed 4 milion years ago. and they can be found to be say 4 million to 3 million years old. now why aren't any other forms found in that time frame (4-3 milion years old) but they will either be older or younger than that age. the best example i can make is modern man lives in the same time frame as its counsin or ancestor, the monkey. so why didn't the homo habilis aslo have their ancestors or cousins living at the same time frame. and by the way are todays monkeys considered to be our ancestors or our cousins. well not mine but everyone elses.

 

[Gharib]

Awww... I liked this thread better when it was funny.

i agree, everyones getting all angry for nothing.

 

[Father Heathen]

i agree, everyones getting all angry for nothing.

Well, intellectual dishonestly, willful ignorance, and self deceit are rather shameful.

 

[Sunstone]

Well, intellectual dishonestly, willful ignorance, and self deceit are rather shameful.

But not as shameful as voting twice for George Bush. Just saying.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

what???? no way.:no:, i've never been an animal nor will i ever be and neither were my ancestors. a clear distinguisher of animal and human is the brain. and ofcourse if one doesn't have a brain they are animals. well not so much a brain because even cows have a brain but the abillity to think, thats what i mean.

Like it or not, you're an animal. And you'd probably be surprised at the mental ability of many animals.

yes yes i know this, but i'm just messing with everyones mind when i say that changes happen in short periods of time. the thing is, ok i'll make some sort of an example, it may be dumb but anyway:

everyone beleives that humans will live in the moon in the near future, ok. so know you and i very well know that there is no oxygen, so i'll ask 2 questions know, this is the dumb part but it is related to the changes that you speak of;

some milions of years have past since the first humans on the moon, so

1 will they addapt to the environment, by changing so much that they will not be required to breathe oxygen, they will become breathless, but still alive. this is in a very long time frame, milions of years

OR

2 humans will become oxygen producers, meaning they will not require special masks or trees or anything that produces oxygen since they will be the source. this is kind of like the first one, but anyway.

Neither. Evolution isn't magic; living things still have to adhere to natural laws.

so why didn't the homo habilis aslo have their ancestors or cousins living at the same time frame.

They did.

 

[Gharib]

And frankly, who are you to say that Allah would have been incapable of using evolution as His tool to create life on Earth? Isn't that rather presumptive of you?

don't todays scientists say that everything came to being by the big bang theory. all by itself with no devine interference. thus this means that god wasn't the one who created the big bang, and that is absolutely against what i'm saying. god created everything. unless you have knowledge that it was god who made the big bang. if you do then please tell me about it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

don't todays scientists say that everything came to being by the big bang theory.

They say that the universe began with the Big Bang. This doesn't answer my question, though. The theory of evolution isn't contingent on the Big Bang.

all by itself with no devine interference.

I don't know of any scientist who says anything of the sort. Respectable scientists generally leave the theology to the theologians.

thus this means that god wasn't the one who created the big bang, and that is absolutely against what i'm saying. god created everything. unless you have knowledge that it was god who made the big bang. if you do then please tell me about it.

I guess I'll just take your red herring straw man as your way of saying "yes, using evolution as His tool of creation is beyond the ability of Allah." And I'll take your Big Bang tangent as your way of saying "using the Big Bang as His tool would be beyond the abilities of Allah as well."

 

[Father Heathen]

I thought we've already established that scientific theories are not incompatible with the idea of god a few pages back?

 

[Gharib]

Two quick observations...

Eselam keeps saying one thing or another about "evolution", but no one has asked him exactly what he means by "evolution". So Eselam, when you say "Evolution is a lie", what do you mean by "evolution"? Please be as specific as possible.

thats a tough question to be honest, i just am agains the whole thing such as apes becoming humans (thats after many generations), bears becoming whales (whats interesting is that land life came into existence due to water creatures having to live in land, then they just went back did they?) so by evolution i mean all the impossible things, they are impossible to me. thats why i am agaisnt it. god simply created a creature and didn't make another one to evolve into that creature. because Allah created everything to serve the humans in this world, so why would Allah create everything for us if we came itno existence from that very thing that is sopposed to serve us.

Also this whole thing about events occuring "by chance" is a strawman. Some of you are forgetting the two most basic components behind evolution, mutation and selection. Selection, by its very definition, is non-random.

but natural selection is random. there is nothing to guide nature in the selction process, so something without a mind makind something is totally random. isn't it?

Using the example of coin flipping given, once we introduce a selective element, improbable outcomes (such as all heads) become inevitable. "Selection" allows you to keep the successes (heads) and carry them forward to the next trial. That changes the process dramatically

well what if we said we will select the first 100 tosses how sure can you be that all of them will be the same outcome (ie heads or tails), then on the next trial there is a change, the same for the third trial and so on, thus there will never be a clean outcome.

 

[Gharib]

They say that the universe began with the Big Bang. This doesn't answer my question, though. The theory of evolution isn't contingent on the Big Bang.


I don't know of any scientist who says anything of the sort. Respectable scientists generally leave the theology to the theologians.


I guess I'll just take your red herring straw man as your way of saying "yes, using evolution as His tool of creation is beyond the ability of Allah." And I'll take your Big Bang tangent as your way of saying "using the Big Bang as His tool would be beyond the abilities of Allah as well."

actually nothing is beyound the abillities of Allah. he could have made the big bang, a logic axample rather than just say "POOF" i created earth. but when Allah creates something he only says "BE" and it becomes. that simple.

 

[Gharib]

Mu guess, esalem, is that like most people who do not accept the Theory of Evolution, you have no idea what it says.

would you mind telling me? maybe i can learn something. and ask questions.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Eeslam, if you do not believe in evolution, fine. But your arguments against it are scientifically weak. Suffice it to say, your theology does not accept science. Therefore an attempt to use theology to refute science, or using pseudoscience to refute scientific method will not convince anyone of the validity of your argument. (Other than those of like mind.)

 

[kai]

thats a tough question to be honest, i just am agains the whole thing such as apes becoming humans (thats after many generations), bears becoming whales (whats interesting is that land life came into existence due to water creatures having to live in land, then they just went back did they?) so by evolution i mean all the impossible things, they are impossible to me. thats why i am agaisnt it. god simply created a creature and didn't make another one to evolve into that creature. because Allah created everything to serve the humans in this world, so why would Allah create everything for us if we came itno existence from that very thing that is sopposed to serve us.

after all theses posts you are still saying apes became humans and bears became whales ,please read up esalam you have an idea of evolution and then deny your own idea. and yes some creatures left the sea and returned to it.


but natural selection is random. there is nothing to guide nature in the selction process, so something without a mind makind something is totally random. isn't it?

Its not random, its the survival of the most suited to its environment.

well what if we said we will select the first 100 tosses how sure can you be that all of them will be the same outcome (ie heads or tails), then on the next trial there is a change, the same for the third trial and so on, thus there will never be a clean outcome.

the same with natural selection, its on going, heck we even do it ourselves to domestic animals .we breed certain traits into them. and Islam is not against science nor is it an attack on Islam some people beleive God kick started the whole process ,or that Gods thought was the big bang.

Its a very interesting subject esalam and you would find it interesting if you just except the fact that evolution does not negate Islam.