Evolution?

[Vrindavana Das]

I think this is very open to interpretation. After all, species are constantly becoming extinct. So one moment there will be 8million, the next there will be 7.9 million.
Perhaps the verse is saying that over the course of the creation cycle, there is to be that specific amount of species in existence. The verse does not clarify anything, to say that the creation begins with a certain amount of species or that it ends with that many species.

I think based on this lack of clarity of the verse, there is plenty of scope for evolution.

Also, I cannot seem to find a specific quote than mentions the number of species. I see Prabhupada's mention of this, but not actual scripture. Help?

The scriptures are infallible. They arise from the breathing of Lord. Not written by conditioned mortals with four defects I mentioned yesterday - Bhram, pramaad, Vipralipsa & Karnavapat.

The Vedas mention there are 8.4 million species of life:

9 Lac Aquatic species
20 Lac Plant species
11 Lac Insect species
10 Lac Bird species
30 Lac Animal species
4 Lac Human species
TOTAL: 8.4 million

Therefore there is no scope for doubting the words of scriptures.

What stands out for me is that nowhere does it mention that all these entities were created at the same time. In fact those two verses say nothing about the process of creation, what was created first, when they were created etc. So it has no bearing on this topic.

When we discuss the verse that in the beginning of creation God sent generations of Men and Demigods... What does it mean? It means:

1. Man did not evolve from Monkey.
2. With men, all other creatures were sent to support the self-sustained ecosystem - the Earth. Can you explain a creation only with man? No plants for grains, no trees for oxygen, no birds for pollination of flowers...

On the other hand, the following verses I find very interesting:

"SB 11.22.29: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O best among men, material nature and its enjoyer are clearly distinct. This manifest creation undergoes constant transformation, being founded upon the agitation of the modes of nature."

'MANIFEST CREATION' undergoes constant transformation. The three modes of material nature are the underlying principle of the individuals - birds, beasts, trees, humans - all! Are all the bodies not changing constantly with time? From birth, boyhood, to adolescence, to youth to old-age to death? However the enjoyer - Soul (individual self) and Supreme Soul (God) are immutable and unchanging.

For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and premeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. B.G. - 2.20

In this verse, the number of species is defined as 'innumerable':

"SB 3.11.28: ... By the influence of eternal time, the innumerable living entities remain merged in that dissolution, and everything is silent."

Innumerable LIVING ENTITIES and not innumerable SPECIES.

For instance: When Maha Vishnu inhales and cosmic universes dissolve, innumerable LIVING ENTITIES merge into His body. Not INNUMERABLE SPECIES merge in that dissolution.

In Canto 3, chapter 10 of SB, it is explained that there are many kinds of creations. They are put into order, because they are created separately, at different times.

"SB 3.10.18: All the above are natural creations by the external energy of the Lord. Now hear ....
...Humans are always busy in the midst of miserable life, but they think themselves happy in all respects."

What the verses fail to do is explain when or how far apart these creations occurred. Which means that it is open to interpretation.

This is just the sequence of creation. All are needed for a balanced ecosystem. It does not matter how far apart these creations occurred. Creation sequence may be different. But all are needed SIMULTANEOUSLY for a self sustained ecosystem, of which man is but a part...

Like to make a shirt, I may first stitch the collar, then the sleeves, then the whatever and then the whatever... Finally it is the complete whole shirt of which that button (human) is a part. The whole shirt is needed for the button to find it's place there.

Makes any sense?

 

[Cassandra]

Cassandra, I think you will find the answer about observing evolution in the study of genetics. But I am no expert in this topic but there are a lot of very knowledgeable on this forum, in the general areas.

Hi Maduri,

I do not seem to be able to make my view clear. Science theory is not about simply observing what happens, it is about explaining HOW things happen, What is the mechanism and what is the relation. They do that by predicting what would happen according the theory in a special case and then observe if this is so. If this not so, the theory is rejected (falsified). If it is so the theory is accepted but only for the time being. A million confirmations can still be undone by one observation that does not fit the theory.

I do not deny things evolve. I do simply not believe that things evolve because of a combination of environmental pressure and chance. Like you I believe in an evolution, but this is not an scientific evolution. When I see a flower opening up to the Sun, I sense both the pleasure of the flower and the Sun. That is why the flower came in to being, it has nothing to with a survival of the fittest. Those ideas come from a culture in which all aspects of existence are considered to be guided by struggle.

 

[Cassandra]

Here is an interesting extract from the Vishnu Purana. Note that the use of the word 'world' does not mean a separate planet. It is talking about time, or Yuga, perhaps. For example, it states "constitute the primitive world"

As soon as Brahma thought of creation, Tamoguni (full of darkness) creatures were the first to
appear. Absence of knowledge and presence of evils like attachment, anger etc. were the main
virtues of these creatures. These creatures include lower organisms, trees, shrubs, creepers,
plants and grasses. These together constitute the primitive world. Their creation was followed by
the appearance of animals and birds, which are devoid of wisdom and are full of ego. They are
also unaware of the nature of another organism of their status.
Still unsatisfied with His creation, Lord created the next world, which has a somewhat elevated
position. The living beings that were produced in this world had internal and external knowledge,
power of reflection and loved physical comforts. Though this creation pleased the Lord, He was
still unsatisfied. So He created the next world, which was situated at a somewhat lower position.
This new world had excess of all the three virtues. Human beings populate this world and
because of excess of vices, they are full of sorrow but at the same time, highly active, have
internal and external knowledge and are able to attain their goals.

Hi Maduri

Interesting text

As I see it... Man was created before all that. We are more special than that: "Thou art that". The creature we regard as man today and walking this earth is not as the man created in the beginning of time. That firstborn man, Purusha, did not even have one material body. Rig Veda says he had thousand heads, thousand eyes and feet. He is all that ever was, is and will be. The closest to that creature are the spirits of the Sages, the enlightened ones.

But apart form that, if you read this text, does it not also contradict the evolution you believe in?
And do you believe creation described here is material creation?

 

[Vrindavana Das]

You're mixing levels, Vrindavana. As the Rik says: "Reality is structured in consciousness." Comparing the reality of waking-state to that of cosmic consciousness makes no sense at all.

Kindly quantify that statement. It is too vague.

I don't understand. Are you objecting to the word "evidences?"
Apparently you take issue with the ToE or with macroevolution in some way. Can you clarify your point?

Contrary to your claim. This site does not have any evidence of one species evolving into another. Kindly go through. I am pointing to the use of word "evidences
?" by the creators of website themselves.

Flat-Earth was never a scientific theory. Just because something is widely believed doesn't make it a theory.

Prove that statement. And if you are thinking of copying-pasting a website URL, kindly go through the same beforehand.

You have a better idea? Please share and enlighten!

 

[jg22]

Man did not evolve from Monkey.

Please tell us, which evolutionary biologist has said otherwise, O well read one!

 

[Cassandra]

Cassie, Cassie, Cassie! You're not reading the posts and links. You have this idee fixe that a theory is speculation or an incomplete fact. A theory often is a fact. A round Earth and a Sun centered solar system are THEORIES -- and facts.
Read: Evolution is a Fact and a Theory
Read: Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory" 1994

We have seen this kind of arrogance many times before in science. Science is literally littered with ego driven persons striving for eternal fame through their discoveries and theories.

What these people totally forget, is that a scientist attitude is not to defend theories but to falsify them. Something they stopped doing. This whole idea that evidence is now so conclusive that it is "scientific fact", testifies of this wrong attitude we also see emerging in cosmology. I am not impressed by swollen ego's telling they are right. It makes me smile. Fact can only be based on real observation. Theories not yet disproved are no facts, and calling them facts is simply misleading. They created a theory that works theoretically, that is all, and they say, this is fact, because we have no other theory. But what they hide is that science cripples her self by not allowing aspects like consciousness in the equation from the out-start. Consciousness is fact, an we know consciousness is responsible for evolutions. Almost every device humans makes, evolves. Not by some fluke process called called Darwin evolution, but under the influence of intelligence. We do not need their atheist theory to explain reality, they need it because they are atheists. That is the fact of the matter. If you want to explain reality without taking consciousness into the equation you are simply a fool. Natural physics tried that too and failed, observations turned out to be connected with the act of observation.

But if evolutionist can create animals out of seaweed by putting environmental pressure on it, please show me, I will be the first to congratulate them. Until then it is all boasting. They can do nothing of the sort, all they can show is that species adapt to circumstances and that this sometimes incurs genetic mutations. It means nothing, it does not mean this new species is evolved in a being that is more intelligent, more capable. I only has changed, and these changes can actually be a loss flexibility that harms their survival probabilities on the longer term. Over-adaptation is a key reason for dying out of species. adaptation to environment can easily be a dead-end street.

So that is why they changed their theory. Is no longer the same theory even if they use the same name to hide their failure. Now they say, okay the species may die out, but the genes can still survive in other species. Okay dinosaurs did die out even if they were so wonderfully adapted by evolution, but they went on as birds. That is the kind of things they do to keep a theory alive that should have been buried long ago. Some people fall for that, I don't. We have seen the same arrogance many times in the past.

Why don't you read Popper about what real scientist should do: falsify theories, not keeping them alive to save your reputation.
Even worse calling them facts, making falsification unnecessary
He explicitly warns against this mentality
He calls that pseudo science
.

 

[Madhuri]

Hi Maduri

Interesting text

As I see it... Man was created before all that. We are more special than that: "Thou art that". The creature we regard as man today and walking this earth is not as the man created in the beginning of time. That firstborn man, Purusha, did not even have one material body. Rig Veda says he had thousand heads, thousand eyes and feet. He is all that ever was, is and will be. The closest to that creature are the spirits of the Sages, the enlightened ones.

But apart form that, if you read this text, does it not also contradict the evolution you believe in?
And do you believe creation described here is material creation?

Cassandra,
yes this is a description of creation of the material universe/world.
How does the verse contradict evolution?

 

[Madhuri]

The scriptures are infallible. They arise from the breathing of Lord. Not written by conditioned mortals with four defects I mentioned yesterday - Bhram, pramaad, Vipralipsa & Karnavapat.

The Vedas mention there are 8.4 million species of life:

9 Lac Aquatic species
20 Lac Plant species
11 Lac Insect species
10 Lac Bird species
30 Lac Animal species
4 Lac Human species
TOTAL: 8.4 million

Therefore there is no scope for doubting the words of scriptures.

You didn't answer my question. And you didn't provide any quotes. It's fine if you can't find a quote, I was hoping you could help me out there.

Even if the scriptures are infallible, doesn't mean feeble humans are expert at ascertaining their meaning. This is why I say it is open to interpretation, because when a human hears or reads scripture, he is using a subjective perspective. And therefore your interpretation may be wrong.

This is just the sequence of creation. All are needed for a balanced ecosystem. It does not matter how far apart these creations occurred. Creation sequence may be different. But all are needed SIMULTANEOUSLY for a self sustained ecosystem, of which man is but a part...

Yes, a sequence. But who knows how long that took. The time it takes for Bramha to do something equal millions of human years. By the sounds of the verses, he creates, contemplates and then add to the creation. Even a second of Bramha's time is a long time on this planet.

Like to make a shirt, I may first stitch the collar, then the sleeves, then the whatever and then the whatever... Finally it is the complete whole shirt of which that button (human) is a part. The whole shirt is needed for the button to find it's place there.

Makes any sense?

Yes, this is also how evolution works.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Cassandra,

If there is only consciousness, what is the difference between appearing real and being real? Is this not semantics that should be avoided, because it only creates the illusion of illusion?

Mind is akin to unconsciousness where no-mind to consciousness and so mentioned that what the mind perceives are illusions but the same from the no-mind is simply is only consciousness and what appears are mind delusions.

Love & rgds

 

[Madhuri]

Please tell us, which evolutionary biologist has said otherwise, O well read one!

All of them.

Humans evolved from a species within the group of 'arachaic homo sapien'.

It is ignorant to say that we evolved from 'monkeys', though more accurate to say that we belong to the primate family.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Interesting read:
Ardi skeleton found in Ethiopia is closest thing to 'missing link' between humans and apes | Mail Online

Love & rgds

 

[Madhuri]

Hi Maduri,

I do not seem to be able to make my view clear. Science theory is not about simply observing what happens, it is about explaining HOW things happen, What is the mechanism and what is the relation. They do that by predicting what would happen according the theory in a special case and then observe if this is so. If this not so, the theory is rejected (falsified). If it is so the theory is accepted but only for the time being. A million confirmations can still be undone by one observation that does not fit the theory.

Yes, I do largely agree with you.

I do not deny things evolve. I do simply not believe that things evolve because of a combination of environmental pressure and chance. Like you I believe in an evolution, but this is not an scientific evolution. When I see a flower opening up to the Sun, I sense both the pleasure of the flower and the Sun. That is why the flower came in to being, it has nothing to with a survival of the fittest. Those ideas come from a culture in which all aspects of existence are considered to be guided by struggle.

One thing in science I have noticed is that there is aweakness when it comes to why something happens. And so like you, I agree that there is an evolution. But instead of seeing it as completely random, I see that it is the Divine guiding the process.

But what you have said here is the reason for why the flower came into existence. We may agree to this point. But what happen to the flower afterwards is what survival of the fittest is all about. Will the flower survive or not survive? And what factors determine this? Some species survive because birds or bees are attracted to them and help to pollinate or spread the plant species. Other plants survive because they contain a poison that stop 'predators' from harming or destroying it. Other contain genetics that help it to be strong and grow very fast and easily (ie/ weeds!). And some species are unsupported by any of these things and become rare and perhaps extinct.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

You didn't answer my question. And you didn't provide any quotes. It's fine if you can't find a quote, I was hoping you could help me out there.

Complete and perfect knowledge of evolution in minute detail is available in the Vedic literatures. His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada has kindly supplied the following Vedic quotations:

jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati
krmayo rudra-sankhyakah paksinam dasa-laksanam
trimsal-laksani pasavah catur-laksani manusah​

There are 900,000 species of aquatic life; 2,000,000 species of plants and trees; 1,100,000 species of insects; 1,000,000 species of bird life; 3,000,000 species of beasts, and 400,000 species of human life. Padma Purana

Even if the scriptures are infallible, doesn't mean feeble humans are expert at ascertaining their meaning. This is why I say it is open to interpretation, because when a human hears or reads scripture, he is using a subjective perspective. And therefore your interpretation may be wrong.

If I read biology books by myself for 5 years, do I become a doctor? I will be put behind bars if I tried practicing medical profession that way.
I need to learn under a qualified guide, mentor, teacher...guru who can teach me.
This is the reason the Gaudiya Vaishnavas 'parrot' the information revealed in the scriptures. They have learned the meaning - from qualified spiritual masters, coming down in disciplic succession, AS IT IS. There is no scope of 'personal interpretation', which may be wrong - you yourself admit.

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti te jñānaḿ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ​

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth. B.G. - 4.34

An example: The meaning of "species" used by biologists applies to the gross physical appearance or the gross morphological feature of the living material bodies. The Vedic meaning, however, which is derived after thorough and careful analysis, is based on the level of consciousness of the living being. Like, biologists say that all human beings belong to one species, whereas the Vedic literatures list 400,000 species. In other words, there are 400,000 grades of human beings on different levels of consciousness.

Yes, a sequence. But who knows how long that took. The time it takes for Bramha to do something equal millions of human years. By the sounds of the verses, he creates, contemplates and then add to the creation. Even a second of Bramha's time is a long time on this planet.

Please re-look at this line: By the sounds of the verses, he creates, contemplates and then add to the creation. Even a second of Bramha's time is a long time on this planet.

Sound is different from time. Please do not mix the two.

An example: Suppose this is Bramha-loka. I am Bramha. With my powers, I chant a verse and species 1 manifests down there on earth. I chant another verse and species 2 manifests there. I chant another verse, species 3 manifests... I am meditating that I am sitting on earth and chanting these verses. How apart in time did the manifestation happen - just as apart as it took me to chant the three verses. I did not PHYSICALLY GO and created the species. Species were created by the SOUND VIBRATIONS of the verses. The material for creation (5 gross & 3 subtle elements) are already present on earth, I am mentally (through meditation) present on earth...they just manifest around a living soul, giving it a particular specie's body & shape.

To clarify: I - an earthly being, sitting here can think and reach Bramha-loka mentally in less than a fraction of a second...at the speed of mind (a subtle element). Despite of difference in earthly and celestial time calculations. So, can Bramha not, with the power of sound vibrations of mantras, being mentally present on earth through meditation (while physically in Bramha-loka), create species that are 'only as apart in time' as 'the verses that create them' are.

Yes, this is also how evolution works.

This is how evolution works.

asitim caturas caiva laksams tan jiva-jatisu
bhramadbhih purusaih prapyam manusyam janma-paryayat
tad apy abhalatam jatah tesam atmabhimaninam
varakanam anasritya govinda-carana-dvayam​

One attains the human form of life after transmigrating through 8,400,000 species of life by the process of gradual evolution. That human form of life is spoiled for those conceited fools who do not take shelter of the lotus feet of Govinda [Krsna]. Brahma-vaivarta Purana

 

[Madhuri]

Complete and perfect knowledge of evolution in minute detail is available in the Vedic literatures.

What do you mean here? I thought you said you don't believe in evolution. Unless you are referring to spiritual/soul evolution?

His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada has kindly supplied the following Vedic quotations:

There are 900,000 species of aquatic life; 2,000,000 species of plants and trees; 1,100,000 species of insects; 1,000,000 species of bird life; 3,000,000 species of beasts, and 400,000 species of human life. Padma Purana

Thank you, so it comes from Padma Purana. Although going through the Padma Purana I see no such quote. Weird.

If I read biology books by myself for 5 years, do I become a doctor? I will be put behind bars if I tried practicing medical profession that way.
I need to learn under a qualified guide, mentor, teacher...guru who can teach me.
This is the reason the Gaudiya Vaishnavas 'parrot' the information revealed in the scriptures. They have learned the meaning - from qualified spiritual masters, coming down in disciplic succession, AS IT IS. There is no scope of 'personal interpretation', which may be wrong - you yourself admit.

I agree, although I do not trust that these gurus have perfect knowledge or understanding. I believe true realisation or understanding comes to us from the Paramatma and guru acts as a guide to help us become in tunes with Paramatma.

As we see, so many qualified spiritual masters teach very different and often contradicting philosophy. Which is why the students will also disagree with one another. I personally do not value blind following/belief.

An example: The meaning of "species" used by biologists applies to the gross physical appearance or the gross morphological feature of the living material bodies. The Vedic meaning, however, which is derived after thorough and careful analysis, is based on the level of consciousness of the living being. Like, biologists say that all human beings belong to one species, whereas the Vedic literatures list 400,000 species. In other words, there are 400,000 grades of human beings on different levels of consciousness.

Ok, I didn't know that. Where have you got this information from?

Please re-look at this line: By the sounds of the verses, he creates, contemplates and then add to the creation. Even a second of Bramha's time is a long time on this planet.

Sound is different from time. Please do not mix the two.

An example: Suppose this is Bramha-loka. I am Bramha. With my powers, I chant a verse and species 1 manifests down there on earth. I chant another verse and species 2 manifests there. I chant another verse, species 3 manifests... I am meditating that I am sitting on earth and chanting these verses. How apart in time did the manifestation happen - just as apart as it took me to chant the three verses. I did not PHYSICALLY GO and created the species. Species were created by the SOUND VIBRATIONS of the verses. The material for creation (5 gross & 3 subtle elements) are already present on earth, I am mentally (through meditation) present on earth...they just manifest around a living soul, giving it a particular specie's body & shape.

To clarify: I - an earthly being, sitting here can think and reach Bramha-loka mentally in less than a fraction of a second...at the speed of mind (a subtle element). Despite of difference in earthly and celestial time calculations. So, can Bramha not, with the power of sound vibrations of mantras, being mentally present on earth through meditation (while physically in Bramha-loka), create species that are 'only as apart in time' as 'the verses that create them' are.

This seems like speculation. Can you back up with evidence that it took Brahma only moments to create all these things at once? I have seen no such reference.

This is how evolution works.

One attains the human form of life after transmigrating through 8,400,000 species of life by the process of gradual evolution. That human form of life is spoiled for those conceited fools who do not take shelter of the lotus feet of Govinda [Krsna]. Brahma-vaivarta Purana

I agree with spiritual evolution. But again I do not see this verse in the Purana that you are quoting from. are you perhaps referencing purported text?

 

[jg22]

His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada...

Welp.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

What do you mean here? I thought you said you don't believe in evolution. Unless you are referring to spiritual/soul evolution?

Right. I am refering to spiritual evolution.

Thank you, so it comes from Padma Purana. Although going through the Padma Purana I see no such quote. Weird.

[krishnascience.info/files/Sci_KC2.html]The Scientific Basis of Krishna Consciousness

I agree, although I do not trust that these gurus have perfect knowledge or understanding. I believe true realisation or understanding comes to us from the Paramatma and guru acts as a guide to help us become in tunes with Paramatma.

Yes. Not all gurus have perfect knowledge. There are many cheaters who are going around and we should be very careful while selecting our association.

There are only four authorized disciplic successions as per our scriptures.

Sri Nimbarka sampradaya,
Sri Ramanujacarya sampradaya,
Sri Madhvacarya sampradaya,
Sri Visnuswami sampradaya.

Garga Samhita, 10:61:23-26

As we see, so many qualified spiritual masters teach very different and often contradicting philosophy. Which is why the students will also disagree with one another. I personally do not value blind following/belief.

The spiritual masters have different levels of realizations.
Gyanis reach upto the transcendental effulgence (unmanifest light) - so they propagate the path of knowledge.

Yogis, realize God upto the Parmatma level (Supersoul in heart), so they teach the path of medidation.

Devotees realize God as the Supreme Personality of Godhead - Krishna, so they teach the path of Bhakti - devotion.

The difference is due to difference in the levels of realization. There is no contradiction in philosophy however.

Ok, I didn't know that. Where have you got this information from?

[prabhupada.org.uk/sp_expose/com_evol.htm]Untitled Document

This seems like speculation. Can you back up with evidence that it took Brahma only moments to create all these things at once? I have seen no such reference.

Like I said earlier, can you imagine a world with only humans, no trees for oxygen, no plants for grain, no fruits, no cows for milk, no insects for pollination...this way we would be extinct even before we begin!

I agree with spiritual evolution. But again I do not see this verse in the Purana that you are quoting from. are you perhaps referencing purported text?

[prabhupada.org.uk/sp_expose/com_evol.htm]Untitled Document

 

[Madhuri]

Right. I am refering to spiritual evolution.

I don't have a problem with this. I think that spiritual and material evolution occur simultaneously.

[krishnascience.info/files/Sci_KC2.html]The Scientific Basis of Krishna Consciousness

The problem is that I do not find the verse you provided, or that Prabhupada quotes, within the actual Purana.
Have you read this Purana?

Like I said earlier, can you imagine a world with only humans, no trees for oxygen, no plants for grain, no fruits, no cows for milk, no insects for pollination...this way we would be extinct even before we begin!

This does not apply to our conversation. Neither in the creation story nor in the theory of evolution are humans said to exist without these things. So in both scenarios, the plants come first, then the lower species, then the higher species (including humans).

What we are left with to contemplate is whether or not the scripture is clear about the way this happened. From what I can gather, the scriptures are not clear on this. We know that Bramha created the millions of species. But I do not think we know how, or what was his process. The scriptures neither support not conflict with the theory of evolution.

I believe in evolution because of the physical evidence that exists and because it makes a lot of sense. And like myself, a lot of Hindus believe in evolution because it does not conflict with the Vedas and Upanishads. It may sometimes conflict with the creation stories, but the creation stories differ from one text to another. This indicates to me, on many levels in fact, that the creation stories are largely allegorical. I have read in places that the stories provided are not reality, but described as such for the purposes to helping unintelligent minds (human, Kali-Yuga minds) to develop some conception.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

I don't have a problem with this. I think that spiritual and material evolution occur simultaneously.

'I think' means I am speculating. After so many quotes ranging from soul to 8.4 million species, if we are still thinking, then there is a 'gap' somewhere. Please quantify that statement as I am having a problem in understanding then meaning of "material and spiritual evolution occur simultaneously."

The problem is that I do not find the verse you provided, or that Prabhupada quotes, within the actual Purana.
Have you read this Purana?

Forgive me, but when every Tinku, Dinku and Minku in India knows, the actual verse has been quoted and read, I do not need to read this Purana. I am convinced.

What we are left with to contemplate is whether or not the scripture is clear about the way this happened. From what I can gather, the scriptures are not clear on this. We know that Bramha created the millions of species. But I do not think we know how, or what was his process. The scriptures neither support not conflict with the theory of evolution.

Again 'contemplate'! Scriptures are beyond contemplation. They are fact. You can contemplate on various theories given by a human brain, not scripture. Scriptures come from the infallible and are infallible. They are clear like the sun on a cloudless day. However, our understanding, when it does not come from authorized sources - spiritual masters in disciplic succession, is like the clouds that cover the shining sun of scriptures with clouds of our interpretations. Our understanding is limited to our realization/intellect/feeling etc. Scriptures are above that because they come from transcendental Lord.

I believe in evolution because of the physical evidence that exists and because it makes a lot of sense. And like myself, a lot of Hindus believe in evolution because it does not conflict with the Vedas and Upanishads. It may sometimes conflict with the creation stories, but the creation stories differ from one text to another. This indicates to me, on many levels in fact, that the creation stories are largely allegorical. I have read in places that the stories provided are not reality, but described as such for the purposes to helping unintelligent minds (human, Kali-Yuga minds) to develop some conception.

The stories that you have read are written by persons who are conditioned souls. When my body is created with 5 gross and 3 subtle material elements, how can I understand with these created faculties the cause of my creation unless I take shelter of transcendental knowledge. Please give a concrete reason why you believe in evolution and WHAT DO U MEAN BY EVOLUTION? Kindly validate with example.

 

[Madhuri]

'I think' means I am speculating. After so many quotes ranging from soul to 8.4 million species, if we are still thinking, then there is a 'gap' somewhere. Please quantify that statement as I am having a problem in understanding then meaning of "material and spiritual evolution occur simultaneously."

Until you are a realised person, it is ALWAYS "I think".
I am not challenging anything about the soul. I am challenging your quotes and your interpretation. I am challenging what you 'think' and saying it is not clear.

Forgive me, but when every Tinku, Dinku and Minku in India knows, the actual verse has been quoted and read, I do not need to read this Purana. I am convinced.

That is a terrible excuse. And one that I cannot be convinced about, considering that Prabhupada said so many things that cannot be found in scripture.

Again 'contemplate'! Scriptures are beyond contemplation. They are fact. You can contemplate on various theories given by a human brain, not scripture. Scriptures come from the infallible and are infallible. They are clear like the sun on a cloudless day. However, our understanding, when it does not come from authorized sources - spiritual masters in disciplic succession, is like the clouds that cover the shining sun of scriptures with clouds of our interpretations. Our understanding is limited to our realization/intellect/feeling etc. Scriptures are above that because they come from transcendental Lord.

I believe that to understand the many meanings of the scriptures involves meditation and contemplation and use of intelligence. The guru can tell you something or you can read something but understanding of what is being said is not so simple. To think otherwise is to greatly undervalue the layers of meaning and depth of the scriptures.

I am not saying that scriptures are not fact, I am saying that human interpretation is faulty. Even with guru's help we may not understand properly for a long time.

Furthermore, as I have implied earlier, I use words like 'think' and 'contemplate' in a diplomatic way. Generally out of respect for others who may have different opinions or beliefs.

The stories that you have read are written by persons who are conditioned souls. When my body is created with 5 gross and 3 subtle material elements, how can I understand with these created faculties the cause of my creation unless I take shelter of transcendental knowledge. Please give a concrete reason why you believe in evolution and WHAT DO U MEAN BY EVOLUTION? Kindly validate with example.

Evolution deals only with the changes of the physical world. All of the physical evidence, including studies of genetics, points toward there being a physical evolution. Millions of species that once existed no longer exist. Evolution of physical bodies is being observed in lower species and we find examples of mutations occurring in communities around the world even today.

I do not believe that you have properly studies the theory of evolution. I assume that you have read propaganda against it by people using false information and having heavy bias. I used to believe the same as you. And then I made some efforts to study evolution from an unbiased perspective. When they say 'without a doubt', they mean it. Evolution is a fact without a doubt- see? I didn't say 'I think'.

 

[Cassandra]

Hi Zenzero,

That seems to me like creating confusion. Because you try to mix different levels of consciousness.

Lets make a thought travel:
first we go to the no-mind level.
What do we see?
Nothing!

Then we go to the mind level
What do we see?
Everything!

As I see it ... from here ... from me .... All our thinking, and all our words, all our deeds, are only on this mind level and never escape this level. But in words we suggest that we can talk about that other level and through our minds eye view this level from that level, an illusion. Whatever exists, it exists only on this level. And whatever we talk about never escapes this level. Imagination is part of this level.

That is why the path of the jnani at best ends in failure and total despair. Once he truly realizes there is no way out, once his desperation is so total, he wants to self-destruct, than God has mercy on him and shows him the other level. God does that, not the jnani. That is what happened to Buddha and other jnani's. Forget their theories, they were their failures. That is why all these paths can work, they all fail.

A true Guru does not create theories. Buddha introduced new arrogance and ignorance. He created the illusion that through his ideas one could escape. He created a false idea of "truth". From that came all these other religions proclaiming similar "truth". His truth did not help Buddha, it failed him. It was his desperation that saved him. And that only happened because of his tremendous determination, his total devotion to escape.

No intellectual will ever become enlightened until he becomes a true devotee. Only devotion is a sure gradual path leading to enlightenment. Experience the Divine in every breath, every ray of light, every leaf, every cloud, and Love God for it. Thank God, experience, and thank God. That how you spiral yourself up, steady and sure. All the theories are distractions from that.

Hinduism is Dharmic path. It is not about theory/belief. When Westerners look at Hinduism they think Vedanta is at the heart of it. It is no more than an offshoot of tremendous devotion. It was created by people already enlightened, people did not become enlightened by it. The fastest path is the living Guru. The words of dead ones are like eating a photo of food. These are my words, do not attach any value to them. Only attach value to lessons taught by experience itself. That is how I see it ...