Evolution?

[Vrindavana Das]

Until you are a realised person, it is ALWAYS "I think".
I am not challenging anything about the soul. I am challenging your quotes and your interpretation. I am challenging what you 'think' and saying it is not clear.

Please correct that to scriptural quotes and authorized interpretations. Neither quotes, not interpretations are mine! I am just 'parroting' them.

What is it that is not clear..that you have missed.

That is a terrible excuse. And one that I cannot be convinced about, considering that Prabhupada said so many things that cannot be found in scripture.

If you think the interpretations of scripturally authorized sampradayas, like the Bramha Sampradaya - in which Krishna Himself incarnated as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, as recent as 500 years back, is not valid and are faulty, I read it as you are implying that you know better than God. I have nothing to say. You are entitled to your own opinion.

I believe that to understand the many meanings of the scriptures involves meditation and contemplation and use of intelligence.

With due respect, that statement tells me you do not know the purpose of scriptures. There is only one meaning of scriptures - to teach devotional service of God.

The guru can tell you something or you can read something but understanding of what is being said is not so simple. To think otherwise is to greatly undervalue the layers of meaning and depth of the scriptures.
Even with guru's help we may not understand properly for a long time.

Do you have a guru?

Furthermore, as I have implied earlier, I use words like 'think' and 'contemplate' in a diplomatic way. Generally out of respect for others who may have different opinions or beliefs.

That is perfectly fair and understandable.

Evolution deals only with the changes of the physical world. All of the physical evidence, including studies of genetics, points toward there being a physical evolution. Millions of species that once existed no longer exist. Evolution of physical bodies is being observed in lower species and we find examples of mutations occurring in communities around the world even today.

Try and fit the 'law of conservation of energy' here. Maybe you will reach somewhere...

Please do not confuse mutations with evolution.

I do not believe that you have properly studies the theory of evolution. I assume that you have read propaganda against it by people using false information and having heavy bias. I used to believe the same as you. And then I made some efforts to study evolution from an unbiased perspective. When they say 'without a doubt', they mean it. Evolution is a fact without a doubt- see? I didn't say 'I think'.[/QUOTE]

I 'think' it is alright if you believe so.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Until you are a realised person, it is ALWAYS "I think".
I am not challenging anything about the soul. I am challenging your quotes and your interpretation. I am challenging what you 'think' and saying it is not clear.

I would like to add here. If a 2 year old hears from authorities and 'parrots' 2+2 = 4. That is correct. The child need not be realized to that level, still what he is saying is perfect knowledge.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

A true Guru does not create theories. Buddha introduced new arrogance and ignorance. He created the illusion that through his ideas one could escape. He created a false idea of "truth". From that came all these other religions proclaiming similar "truth". His truth did not help Buddha, it failed him. It was his desperation that saved him. And that only happened because of his tremendous determination, his tremendous devotion.

That seems to be a misguiding statement or I did not get the hang of it.
Buddha did not create an 'illusion' that one could escape. We CAN escape the cluches of maya - illusion. If a soul can be PUT into illusion; he sure as hell can GET OUT of illusion!
Buddha was an incarnation of God. The purpose of the Vedas is to know God. As the vedic scriptures were being misinterpreted for animal killing, to rectify the situation, Buddha defied the very existence of the vedas to preach non-violence and prevent animal slaughter.

sarvasya cāhaḿ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo
mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaḿ ca
vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo
vedānta-kṛd veda-vid eva cāham​

I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas. B.G. - 15.15

No intellectual will ever become enlightened until he becomes a true devotee. Only devotion is a sure gradual path leading to enlightenment. Experience the Divine in every breath, every ray of light, every leaf, every cloud, and Love God for it. Thank God, experience, and thank God. That how you spiral yourself up, steady and sure. All the theories are distractions from that.

Well said! Devotion to God is the essence scriptures...EVERYTHING! All theories are a waste of time and precious Human form of life.

 

[Cassandra]

One thing in science I have noticed is that there is aweakness when it comes to why something happens. And so like you, I agree that there is an evolution. But instead of seeing it as completely random, I see that it is the Divine guiding the process.

But what you have said here is the reason for why the flower came into existence. We may agree to this point. But what happen to the flower afterwards is what survival of the fittest is all about. Will the flower survive or not survive? And what factors determine this? Some species survive because birds or bees are attracted to them and help to pollinate or spread the plant species. Other plants survive because they contain a poison that stop 'predators' from harming or destroying it. Other contain genetics that help it to be strong and grow very fast and easily (ie/ weeds!). And some species are unsupported by any of these things and become rare and perhaps extinct.

Hi Madhuri,

As I see it ... A "flower" does not exist on one level. The essence of flower can not die, it will express itself time and time again in different forms containing the same qualities. It is immortal. It is a Goddess. The Chinese believe that every flower has a fairy in heaven guarding the species. That is beautiful way to express this idea. Even if you would destroy every one of these flowers, the Goddess will express the same quality in other ways.

As with any expression, the expressions of the flower are born, live and die, but that is only they expression. Every expression is limited.

Science only views reality form the bottom. It takes matter (brain) as real and consciousness an illusion created by it. They reason: physical 's existence can be measured, the rest is unsure because we can not properly measure it. So they create very ingenious theories to explain physical from the physical. Those theories have prediction power, but are still a misrepresentation. It is like saying: Night is the cause of day. For every night is folowed by a day! The prediction is accurate, but that does not make it a proper explanation. But for atheists who are only aware of this one level, these theories are "truth".

 

[Madhuri]

Hi Madhuri,

As I see it ... A "flower" does not exist on one level. The essence of flower can not die, it will express itself time and time again in different forms containing the same qualities. It is immortal. It is a Goddess. The Chinese believe that every flower has a fairy in heaven guarding the species. That is beautiful way to express this idea. Even if you would destroy every one of these flowers, the Goddess will express the same quality in other ways.

As with any expression, the expressions of the flower are born, live and die, but that is only they expression. Every expression is limited.

Science only views reality bottom up. It takes matter (brain) as the cause of consciousness. They reason: physical 's existence can be measured, the rest is unsure because we can not properly measure it. So they create very ingenious theories to explain physical from the physical. Those theories have prediction power, but are still a misrepresentation. It is like saying: Night is the cause of day. For every night is folowed by a day! The prediction is accurate, but that does not make it a proper explanation. But for atheists who are only aware of this one level, these theories are "truth".

I agree Cassandra. I do not take to heart everything that is interpreted by 'atheists'. My belief regarding evolution is my own based on the evidence I have explored so far. While an atheist will make conclusions about God and matter vs Spirit etc. I find a way to combine what seems obvious with my spiritual beliefs. Fortunately, evolution does not conflict with Santana Dharma.

 

[Madhuri]

I would like to add here. If a 2 year old hears from authorities and 'parrots' 2+2 = 4. That is correct. The child need not be realized to that level, still what he is saying is perfect knowledge.

The danger is that the 2 year old would also believe it if someone told it that 2+2=7.

This is the danger is not being able to use one's intelligence to find the right path or information.

It is my observation that many aspects of scripture can be taken in different meanings. This is why people, including the greatest spiritual masters, will teach or interpret the same verses in various ways.

But now let me bring this back to our specific example. You provided a quote regarding the number of species mentioned in scripture and I explained how this could be interpreted in different ways. Can we please concentrate on this for now?

My first thought is that this quote seems to be something that Prabhupada has stated but that has not come from actual scripture. I am very happy for you to prove me wrong. It is entirely possible that I have overlooked something in the Purana, but unless you are able to show me that I am wrong, I am afraid I can not take the quote seriously.

Secondly, I have pointed out that if it is true that there are created 8,400,000 species exactly, the verse does not specify if these species are created simultaneously or if this is the number of species that are destined to exist over the course of the creation cycle or if this simply the number of species any soul is destined to take birth in. Can you see how the meaning is therefore not clear?
Because as you must realise, species are constantly going extinct. The number that existed a million years ago cannot be the number that exists today considering that species go extinct all the time.

Furthermore, it seems to me that if we agree that 'species' is not speaking about the physical body but rather the level of consciousness, there can not be any conclusion made regarding physical evolution. This information neither supports or defeats the concept of physical evolution. Unless I am missing something?

 

[Madhuri]

If you think the interpretations of scripturally authorized sampradayas, like the Bramha Sampradaya - in which Krishna Himself incarnated as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, as recent as 500 years back, is not valid and are faulty, I read it as you are implying that you know better than God. I have nothing to say. You are entitled to your own opinion.

I am only implying that I do not trust the words of Prabhupada, a human being. The only purpose I can see and appreciate in his movement is bringing knowledge of Krishna Consciousness to the West. I take my spiritual authority from a wide range of sources, including all the scriptures and most of the authoritative Masters/Commentators.

And yes, I do have a guru.

Please do not confuse mutations with evolution.

Why, what is the difference?

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Personal understanding is that whatever be the source of knowledge be they scriptures, books, gurus, friends, family, society etc. They are all parts of THAT and are mediums for THAT dharma. meaning finally none can claim ownership to whatever he/she imparts as he too got it from somewhere and unless THAT somewhere imparted it, he.she would not have got it.
In life whatever is there is for everyone to share without claiming ownership and only this way does living becomes enjoyable and the whole existence becomes Home or the garden of eden or *SWARG*.
*NARAK* is created by our own minds attachments to some one / thing / place / emotions / etc.and so by practicing detachment that the being within will grow to its full capacity.

Love & rgds

 

[Cassandra]

Buddha did not create an 'illusion' that one could escape. We CAN escape the cluches of maya - illusion. If a soul can be PUT into illusion; he sure as hell can GET OUT of illusion!
Buddha was an incarnation of God.

Namaste Vrindavana Das

Buddhists are not much charmed by this idea.

As I see it ... please take no offense of my ignorance... Buddha, Jesus, they teach paths that lead to faillure. That is why they are no Hindu avatars of God. Hindu avatars of God like Rama and Krishna teach easier, pleasant paths. They actually come to make life lighter, more pleasant, to enjoy it to the fullest. To embrace life, not to denounce it.

Hindu avatars do not come to make life more difficult and teach renunciation, self-mutilation, suffering to get at the proper levels of desperation to become enlightened and absolved. That is path of people like Ravan. People with demonic mindsets follow the path of penance. Ravan was absolved by God this way. Rama absolved Ravan, but that does not make it the path he teaches.

Simply look at the life of Buddha, he almost killed himself in renunciation. All his attempts to realize God failed. His actions failed so dramatically that it let later Buddhist to teach non-action (Zen). The path of Buddha leads to failure. In the end he sat under a tree totally disillusioned, total "disillusion" (end of illusion) brought him Gods mercy. That is trying to do things the hard way. "Real" Hindu Avatars make life pleasant and easy by proper guide lines (Dharm). They do not create monasteries were people can exercise in suffering. People create these. That is how this ignorant person sees it ...

 

[Vrindavana Das]

The danger is that the 2 year old would also believe it if someone told it that 2+2=7.

This is the danger is not being able to use one's intelligence to find the right path or information.

This question of 2+2=7 does not arise. We are talking of taking knowledge of God from authorized scriptures and authorized spiritual masters following in disciplic succession. Please refer to the quote on 4 authorized sampradayas as per our scriptures.

It is my observation that many aspects of scripture can be taken in different meanings. This is why people, including the greatest spiritual masters, will teach or interpret the same verses in various ways.

Forgive me if I come through as arrogant, but there is no disconnect in the words of God, scriptures and spiritual masters. It is only your belief that such is the case. All three are on the ABSOLUTE LEVEL.

But now let me bring this back to our specific example. You provided a quote regarding the number of species mentioned in scripture and I explained how this could be interpreted in different ways. Can we please concentrate on this for now?

My first thought is that this quote seems to be something that Prabhupada has stated but that has not come from actual scripture. I am very happy for you to prove me wrong. It is entirely possible that I have overlooked something in the Purana, but unless you are able to show me that I am wrong, I am afraid I can not take the quote seriously.

What kind of a proof are you talking of. Please clarify.

Secondly, I have pointed out that if it is true that there are created 8,400,000 species exactly, the verse does not specify if these species are created simultaneously or if this is the number of species that are destined to exist over the course of the creation cycle or if this simply the number of species any soul is destined to take birth in. Can you see how the meaning is therefore not clear?

In God's creation, there must be a purpose for each of 8.4 million species. All contribute towards a self-sustained ecosystem of the universe and are inter-dependent. So, there is every reason to believe that they co-exist simultaneously. It is like a gigantic machinery with 8.4 million parts. Even if one part of the machine goes missing, it becomes useless. Is it not?

Because as you must realise, species are constantly going extinct. The number that existed a million years ago cannot be the number that exists today considering that species go extinct all the time.

As per scriptures Bramha has created 8.4 million species. They populate the whole universe and not just planet earth. A species may become extinct from our planet, but it can manifest on some other planet in this universe. Similarly, a species earlier not on our planet can manifest on our planet. This is guided by individual karmas of the soul and also the karmas of the souls in the particular planetary ecosystem that soul appears on or disappears from. Something like reward or punishment for both. But in essence, TOTAL = 8.4 MILLION.

Furthermore, it seems to me that if we agree that 'species' is not speaking about the physical body but rather the level of consciousness, there can not be any conclusion made regarding physical evolution. This information neither supports or defeats the concept of physical evolution. Unless I am missing something?

If we agree that 'species' refers to levels of consciousness, then we can understand things in following light:-

Humans species, as per scriptures are 4 Lac. As per theory of evolution, humans = homo sapiens sapiens = 1 species (if I understand the theory of evolution correctly). There are 4 Lac levels ofalready created human consciousness levels according to individual's karmas. Thus my karmas dictate the particular consciousness level body I will get after death. If the number of consciousness levels have been fixed, it means the pains and pleasures of that soul have already been predetermined. Evolution happens if we are adapting to changing environmental challenges. i.e., minimize pain and maximize pleasure. But as there is the same is predetermined, there is no meaning to physical evolution.

 

[Cassandra]

Friends,

Personal understanding is that whatever be the source of knowledge be they scriptures, books, gurus, friends, family, society etc. They are all parts of THAT and are mediums for THAT dharma. meaning finally none can claim ownership to whatever he/she imparts as he too got it from somewhere and unless THAT somewhere imparted it, he.she would not have got it.
In life whatever is there is for everyone to share without claiming ownership and only this way does living becomes enjoyable and the whole existence becomes Home or the garden of eden or *SWARG*.
*NARAK* is created by our own minds attachments to some one / thing / place / emotions / etc.and so by practicing detachment that the being within will grow to its full capacity.

Love & rgds

Hi, friend Zenzero,

As I see it ... from my humble point of view... I think you are preaching to the wrong crowd. For Hindus this is simply stating the obvious. Hinduism knows more paths than all other religious traditions combined.

We are all children of God. Priests like to preach this all the time. But awareness of the similarities, does not make us love each other.

I think this is the fundamental difference between Sanatan Dharma and many other religious traditions. Sanatan Dharma celebrates the diversity, while other religions like to create unity. And the funny thing is, the ones that celebrates diversity have few quarrels, but the ones that strive for unity have conflicts all the time.

I think this goal of unity was one of Buddha's gravest errors, echoed by Jesus and Mohamed. But then again, I am an ignorant, simple minded person.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Buddhists are not much charmed by this idea.

As I see it ... please take no offense of my ignorance... Buddha, Jesus, they teach paths that lead to failure.

Buddha is an avtar of God.
Jesus in Bible says - I am son of God. I am not God.

Simply look at the life of Buddha, he almost killed himself in renunciation. All his attempts to realize God failed. His actions failed so dramatically that it let later Buddhist to teach non-action (Zen). The path of Buddha leads to failure. In the end he sat under a tree totally disillusioned, total "disillusion" (end of illusion) brought him Gods mercy. That is trying to do things the hard way. "Real" Hindu Avatars make life pleasant and easy by proper guide lines (Dharm). They do not create monasteries were people can exercise in suffering. People create these. That is how this ignorant person sees it ...

Buddha's is a 'lila' or 'pastime' like that of Rama or Krishna.

To understand, first we must understand the backdrop.

The vedas teach sacrifice as a means to gradually elevate the levels of consciousness of the sacrificer from modes of ignorance to passion to goodness and then ultimately become situated in the transcendental platform. At the transcendental platform, aim is to know God and engage in His loving devotional service. It is noteworthy that, through the power of vdic hymns, the sacrificed animal got a more evolved life form in the next birth. This way, both benefited.

Thus, whenever a person wanted to indulge in meat eating, he had to go through the ordeal of performing a fire sacrifice and after all labour, he would get only a small portion of animal sacrificed to himself. However, with the passage of time, people started using this vedic sacrifice system to slaughter poor innocent animals to satisfy their taste buds. Irreligion became rampant in the name of religion.

God claims that He descends whenever there is a rise in irreligion.

yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srijamy aham​

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion -- at that time I descend Myself. B.G. - 4.7

Thus Lord Buddha appeared and defied the very existence of Vedas. Instead of the Vedic path for self-realization, He showed the 'middle-path'. Which is, one should not be too harsh on his own self (like he was while following a life of severe renunciation), that lead him nowhere in the quest for self-realization. He taught non-violence as a means of achieving enlightenment. At the heart of it, the idea was to stop rampant animal killings for sense gratification, happening in the name of vedic sacrifices.

God always teaches religion according to the time, place and circumstance of any situation.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Sanatan Dharma celebrates the diversity, while other religions like to create unity. And the funny thing is, the ones that celebrates diversity have few quarrels, but the ones that strive for unity have conflicts all the time.

I would agree and add Hindu diversity even extends to Atheism. It also means we have no reason to look down our noses at the beliefs of others. In doing so we are rejecting our own diversity that we hold so dear.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Thus, whenever a person wanted to indulge in meat eating, he had to go through the ordeal of performing a fire sacrifice and after all labour, he would get only a small portion of animal sacrificed to himself.

This is a good point !

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

That is why the path of the jnani at best ends in failure and total despair.

I really am starting to feel like their might be some mental Health issues. Are you ok Cassandra ?

 

[Cassandra]

I really am starting to feel like their might be some mental Health issues. Are you ok Cassandra ?

Namaste Wannabe Yogi

As i see it ... Some people have this idea, the essence of Hinduism is cuddling everyone and praising every ideology as true, every path as equal. That this fake friendliness is the same as Respect. So why was Rama killing off demons like flies. And why did Krishna encourage Arjuna to war his own family? It must be more subtle than that.

Ahimsa is not harming others, but Dharm is not simple but subtle. Ahimsa does not mean I have to agree with Buddha, Jesus. Mohammed teachings, because it hurts their followers feelings if someone expresses different ideas. I am not going to confront these people with my doubs, that would be rude and Respectless and serves no purpose. But it would be foolish if Hindu's felt it necessary to upheld other religions amongst themselves. A Hindu's duty is to upheld is own religion.

You seem to have a different understanding of Ahimsa than I have.
Suggesting I have a mental health problem is a deep personal insult, I will not forget.

 

[jg22]

That is why the path of the jnani at best ends in failure and total despair.

What does jnana have to do with universalism? Can you explain this statement?

Which shruti are you basing your claim that the path of jnana ends in failure on?

I think this goal of unity was one of Buddha's gravest errors, echoed by Jesus and Mohamed.

Where did buddha strive for unity? Did he and his successors not disagree with and attack opposing doctrines to his own?

Where did jesus strive for the unity of religions? Did jesus not say 'no one comes to the Father, except through me'?

For what it's worth, I agree with your sentiments that are critical of universalism, I just don't understand some of the other things you've said.

 

[Cassandra]

What does jnana have to do with universalism? Can you explain this statement?

Which shruti are you basing your claim that the path of jnana ends in failure on?

Where did buddha strive for unity? Did he and his successors not disagree with and attack opposing doctrines to his own?

Where did jesus strive for the unity of religions? Did jesus not say 'no one comes to the Father, except through me'?

For what it's worth, I agree with your sentiments that are critical of universalism, I just don't understand some of the other things you've said.

Namaste jg22,

With due respect, but why do I have to base my self on shruti? I use my own faculties, I like that approach. Do you think quoting scripture is a superior approach? As I see it: the Veda's did not create the enlightened ones, the enlightened ones created the Veda's. A subtle difference.

As I perceive it, universalists are jnani, they strive for unity, but create division, because active conversion leads to conflict. They create something so perfect, they want to spread it, so all may believe in it. I prefer devotion. The nice thing about devotion, is you do not have to believe anything. I find it liberating not having to believe things others conjectured. Especially their moral talk. I do read in texts but only for inspiration, I think that is the purpose of spiritual writings. (spiritual -> inspiration) I freely develop ideas, please do not take offense of them, they are only personal insights, and by no means truth.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

You seem to have a different understanding of Ahimsa than I have.
Suggesting I have a mental health problem is a deep personal insult, I will not forget.

Sorry for any offense. I am usually right on the money about this type of thing. If I was off I am so sorry.

As i see it ... Some people have this idea, the essence of Hinduism is cuddling everyone and praising every ideology as true, every path as equal. That this fake friendliness is the same as Respect. So why was Rama killing off demons like flies. And why did Krishna encourage Arjuna to war his own family? It must be more subtle than that.

Sanatana Dharma has a long history of tolerating diverse ideas. Hindu kings were the cash cows of Buddhist Universities. All of Asia was educated because of these open minded rulers. Carvaka (Atheist materialists who thought religion was a joke.) Taught their Ideas in Hindu Temples without persecution. Krishna and Rama killed because of Violent and all around bad behavior not belief systems. These two things are completely different.

Who praises every ideology ? Who excepts bad behavior ? I certainly do not nor do I know any Hindu belief system that does.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

For what it's worth, I agree with your sentiments that are critical of universalism,

I also reject Universalism. But when Kabir says. Benares is to the East, Mecca to the West; but explore your own heart, for there are both Rama and Allah. I believe what he has to say.