Evolution?

[Madhuri]

Namaste Madhuri,

About this description

We seem to think differently here.

As I see it, it says here Brahma made all beings at once. He created a complete world. Is does not say Brahma created the world egg. Out of that egg the world slowly evolved.

I personally do not think Brahma creates any material. I would see it like this: Brahma creates the principle (immortal Goddess) of Rose, Shiva creates the expression of Rose, Vishnu enjoys the impression of Rose.

I think Brahma lays his creations in the universal consciousness of Shiva. I think that is why it says: "As soon as Brahma thought of creation". And not: "As soon as Brahma did/materialized his creation.

What is your view on this?

Nowhere in that verse does it imply that all creatures were created at once. It specifically explains that certain varieties of creatures were created, then another set and later, humans.

What I perceive is that different scriptures will explain the creation story or sequence differently. I cannot help but think that they are not to be taken literally, or that they are only written extremely simply so that our minds can contain some conceputalisation. That is one reason why Vedic scriptures leave so much room for interpretation. So your belief may be more accurate. And maybe evolution is very much real.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

Personal understanding is that meditators were humans and humans evolved on earth much later and only few meditators could follow evolution through meditation and one was Bhagwan Mahavir who have heard recalled his past 500 lives or so; what they were have no idea.
We have two options to find such knowledge; seek information from scriptures and take them as having heard something but have no first hand knowledge. Next find out from scientific journals what is known which too has hypothesis involved and lastly one who is adept at meditation to meditate on it himself and know first hand.
This is what Gautama was pointing at by churning the dharma wheel!

Love & rgds

 

[Vrindavana Das]

The part that you placed in capitals I have no issue with. I was taking in your post very well until you wrote the part I have bolded. I do not appreciate discussions with people who use this kind of tactic to win their arguments. It is childish. Please refrain from speaking in that manner with me in the future.

Let us not miss the point here. I am not discussing with you to 'win an argument'. The idea is to make you see the rational/truth as revealed by scriptures and as I see it. It is up to you take it or leave it...I can only state the facts

You consider a quote from Prabhupada to be enough proof because you believe Prabhupada to be a realised or all-knowing personality. I do not. When you are debating with someone, you need to provide evidence that will actually convince them. There are so many 'Prabhupada said' that Prabhupada never said and there are things that Prabhupada said which conflict with the majority of Hindu religions. I personally do not consider Prabhupada to be all-knowing. I believe he has shakti and was used as an instrument by God to bring Knowledge of Veda to the world, but I do not agree with everything Prabhupada taught. I have my reasons and you will have to accept that I have reasons, even if you heartily disagree.

But I do appreciate that you provided this other website. Still though, it would not surprise me if this is just someone quoting from Prabhupada's 'reference' because I still cannot find this verse in the Padma Purana. It would be great to have a verse number/reference number to make it easier to find.

At this point I neither think that it is or isn't true. I will believe it when I see it from the original source.

To me the word of Prabhupada & the verse from scripture is proof enough. This verse, I have heard from devotees of many other religious organizations like Sree Chaitanya Gaudiya Math also. If there was any doubt in my mind, I would have certainly gone to Padama Purana. I am convinced.

However, for your pleasure I quote the same from another scripture - Sri Chaitanya Charitamtara, alongwith word-to-word meaning:

eita brahmanda bhari' ananta jiva-gana
caurasi-laksha yonite karaye bhramana​

ei-ta -- in this way; brahmanda -- the whole universe; bhari' -- filling; ananta -- unlimited; jiva-gana -- living entities; caurasi-laksha -- 8,400,000; yonite -- in species of life; karaye -- do; bhramana -- wandering.


"In this universe there are limitless living entities in 8,400,000 species, and all are wandering within this universe.C.C. Madhya Lila - 19.138

I am not arguing against this. I believe in the spiritual evolution taught in Hinduism. I will have to see the quote in scripture about the exact number but the number really isn't a concern of mine.

Glad we agree on something! The verse I had quoted does mention the exact number...if you know sanskrit/hindi, you can see.

I am not sure that I understand your meaning.

From a spiritual point, a soul can evolve or de-evolve. Meaning, on doing good deeds, I can be elevated to a superior species; for bad deeds, I can be degraded to a lower species of life. Thus, there is no meaning to physical evolution in the real sense of the word.

Physical adaptation is a part of evolution. Evolution, as a subject of science, is the gradual changes that occur to the physical body and the physical world. ToE does not say that humans evolved from monkeys. It says that humans share a common ancestor with other monkey species. ToE says that humans belong to the primate species, which all varieties of [/CENTER]ape and monkey belong to. 'Monkeys' are not the grandfathers of humans, they are the cousins of humans. The common ancestor that humans and other primates share is no longer in existence. All that is left of them are the fossils.

We agree on the physical adaptation part. However, the very fact that ToE talks about a common ancestor means that it is assuming that humans and other primates have 'EVOLVED' from a particular common ancestor.

This is not in line with the scriptural fact of 8.4 million created species by Bramha. If the created number is fixed, where is the scope of 'COMMON ANCESTOR'? Fossils only indicate ADAPTATION to changing environment, not EVOLUTION. ' This is what you are defending about the ToE, and I am annexing.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Hi Cassy,

What I meant with this hyperbole is: Why did God create the universe? Or rather why does he repeatedly. Why would he, if it did not give him pleasure? Or is God not that "logical"?

It is logical. But only partly.

It gives God pleasure if we love Him. There is nothing we can give Him or He needs....everything belongs to Him. Is it not?

God is the Supreme enjoyer. We, living entities are the enjoyed. When we, the living entities decided that we want to enjoy independent of God, He gave us this facility by creating universe. Along with creation, He gave us the codes by which to live happily here and at the end of life, go back to Him.
God wants us back. He loves us. That is why the scriptures are there, pointing to us the way back home - back home to Godhead.

"That Tvam Asi": You are That (God)
Or
You = God <-> God = you
That is applying the rules of logic

It is correct to the point of 'impersonal feature of God' - Bramha jyoti.
However, scriptures tell us that beyond the bramha jyoti is the Parmatma feature of Supreme Lord and beyond Parmatma expansion is the Supreme Personality of Godhead - Krishna or Bhagwaan.

To clarify:

God is that fire of which we living souls are minute sparks.
We are God - like a spark is non-different from fire.
We are not God - like a spark can never be equal to the fire in magnitude/size. Soul is infinitesimal and God is infinite.

So we are to be God's slaves, like in Islam? Total submission? Why is God so oppressive? Is there a logical reason?

God does not want us to be slaves. God has given us all a free-will and does not interfere with our free-will. Without free-will, we would be like slaves... machines...robots. He wants free, caring, loving, happy souls...not robots!
God is an ocean of nectar...happiness. We are anxious for a drop of that nectar. Somehow or another, we have fallen into the ocean of material existence and looking for happiness here. There is no happiness here. That is the way God has created this world; Dukhalayam Ashashvatam - a temporary place, full of miseries. Why? God wants that we give up this miserable place and associate with Him. That is what will bring us eternal happiness

Buddha knows neither God nor Atman. Is it not dangerous to equate "realizing the soul" when the definition of soul is so different? I mean logically speaking?

Buddha showed us the path to self realization. Buddha defied the vedas, due to their being misused for animal killing during those days. Ironically, vedas tell us about the existence of God and soul in essence. Therefore, Buddha showed the path of consciousness....leaving the realization to the followers. Consciousness is a symptom of soul. Just like sunshine is a symptom of it's source...the sun. Is it not logical then to equate 'realizing the path' to 'soul'. 'Theravada Buddhists' do believe that 'path'.

I called it "spiritual suicide" to set it apart from normal suicide. In Buddhism there is no God, so there is no realizing God. So to escape one commits what I call spiritual suicide.

Please refer to what I have mentioned above.

I wonder why we would have to pleasure God. Why is that? What does he need that for. To caress his God size ego? We have to make the King happy? Is that not a bit disappointing?

God is the reservoir of all happiness. We all are thirsting for that happiness. Unfortunately we are looking for that happiness in this material world, where it does not belong. As God loves us, therefore, He is showing us the path of how to attain Him.

If a pot of honey tells a bee that you come to me, you will be happy this way, does that mean that honey pot is being egoistic in telling the bee to come to it? I think it is a reason to rejoice that out of countless living entities, somehow, I have been given a chance to realize God...a chance to permanently and eternally be happy with God.

God is complete in Himself. He does not need anyone. Still, when a soul loves God & God loves the soul, both of them become complete...is that not love?

I quote here from: Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 6 Verse 30

yo m&#257;&#7743; pa&#347;yati sarvatra
sarva&#7743; ca mayi pa&#347;yati
tasy&#257;ha&#7743; na pra&#7751;a&#347;y&#257;mi
sa ca me na pra&#7751;a&#347;yati​

For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.B.G. 6.3

A person in K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a consciousness certainly sees Lord K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a everywhere, and he sees everything in K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a. Such a person may appear to see all separate manifestations of the material nature, but in each and every instance he is conscious of K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a, knowing that everything is a manifestation of K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a's energy. Nothing can exist without K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a, and K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a is the Lord of everything &#8212; this is the basic principle of K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a consciousness. K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a consciousness is the development of love of K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a &#8212; a position transcendental even to material liberation. At this stage of K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a consciousness, beyond self-realization, the devotee becomes one with K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a in the sense that K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a becomes everything for the devotee and the devotee becomes full in loving K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a. An intimate relationship between the Lord and the devotee then exists. In that stage, the living entity can never be annihilated, nor is the Personality of Godhead ever out of the sight of the devotee. To merge in K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a is spiritual annihilation. A devotee takes no such risk.

It is stated in the Brahma-sa&#7743;hit&#257; (5.38):

prem&#257;ñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena
santa&#7717; sadaiva h&#7771;daye&#7779;u vilokayanti
ya&#7743; &#347;y&#257;masundaram acintya-gu&#7751;a-svar&#363;pa&#7743;
govindam &#257;di-puru&#7779;a&#7743; tam aha&#7743; bhaj&#257;mi​

"I worship the primeval Lord, Govinda, who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of &#346;y&#257;masundara, situated within the heart of the devotee."

At this stage, Lord K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a never disappears from the sight of the devotee, nor does the devotee ever lose sight of the Lord. In the case of a yog&#299; who sees the Lord as Param&#257;tm&#257; within the heart, the same applies. Such a yog&#299; turns into a pure devotee and cannot bear to live for a moment without seeing the Lord within himself.

 

[Madhuri]

Let us not miss the point here. I am not discussing with you to 'win an argument'. The idea is to make you see the rational/truth as revealed by scriptures and as I see it. It is up to you take it or leave it...I can only state the facts

You won't be convincing me of anything by telling me that I think I know better than God, especially when I have said nothing to deserve such a statement. But let us drop this now.

To me the word of Prabhupada & the verse from scripture is proof enough. This verse, I have heard from devotees of many other religious organizations like Sree Chaitanya Gaudiya Math also. If there was any doubt in my mind, I would have certainly gone to Padama Purana. I am convinced.

However, for your pleasure I quote the same from another scripture - Sri Chaitanya Charitamtara, alongwith word-to-word meaning:

eita brahmanda bhari' ananta jiva-gana
caurasi-laksha yonite karaye bhramana​

ei-ta -- in this way; brahmanda -- the whole universe; bhari' -- filling; ananta -- unlimited; jiva-gana -- living entities; caurasi-laksha -- 8,400,000; yonite -- in species of life; karaye -- do; bhramana -- wandering.


"In this universe there are limitless living entities in 8,400,000 species, and all are wandering within this universe.C.C. Madhya Lila - 19.138

Thank you, these I consider more reliable sources.

From a spiritual point, a soul can evolve or de-evolve. Meaning, on doing good deeds, I can be elevated to a superior species; for bad deeds, I can be degraded to a lower species of life. Thus, there is no meaning to physical evolution in the real sense of the word.

How does a soul evolving/de-volving affect a physical evolution? The physical evolution happens as guided by the Lord, not by the journey of the individual soul.

We agree on the physical adaptation part. However, the very fact that ToE talks about a common ancestor means that it is assuming that humans and other primates have 'EVOLVED' from a particular common ancestor.

This is not in line with the scriptural fact of 8.4 million created species by Bramha. If the created number is fixed, where is the scope of 'COMMON ANCESTOR'? Fossils only indicate ADAPTATION to changing environment, not EVOLUTION. ' This is what you are defending about the ToE, and I am annexing.

But you said that the 8.4million refers to consciousness levels, not physical bodies, and that it refers to the whole universe. You also stated that when one species becomes extinct on one planet it may pop up on another. There seems to be scope for ToE according to what you have said so far.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

How does a soul evolving/de-volving affect a physical evolution? The physical evolution happens as guided by the Lord, not by the journey of the individual soul.

There is no meaning to 'physical evolution' means exactly what you are saying here. Slight difference is that with 8.4 million pre-determined species, there is scope only of physical adaptation and not physical evolution.

But you said that the 8.4million refers to consciousness levels, not physical bodies, and that it refers to the whole universe. You also stated that when one species becomes extinct on one planet it may pop up on another. There seems to be scope for ToE according to what you have said so far.

We do need 8.4 million bodies to house 8.4 million levels of consciousness. For a round consciousness level, we need a suitable body. For a square level of consciousness, different suitable body is needed. Take for example a person, in a consciousness level, who likes to expose. That person, as per scriptures, after death is forced to take on a tree's body. Forced to stand naked throughout the year and suffer the scorching sun, rain, winter, winds...everything, for duration of life of that tree...there is a body for every level of consciousness.

Due to external environmental changes like pollution, ozone depletion, global warming etc, the outward appearance of this tree may change to acclimatize to changing environment. This is adaptation...not evolution.

When one species becomes 'extinct' on one planet, there is no reason to believe it does not continue to exist on another planet. After-all these 8.4 million species populate the whole cosmos!

 

[zenzero]

Friend VD,

whether there are 8.4 million or one its the same as find its all consciousness!
Besides if cannot verify either through scientific means or by meditation on my own, it is only a 2nd hand fact or unverifiable fact at best one could have faith or belief in it which again is a mind matter.

Love & rgds

 

[Madhuri]

There is no meaning to 'physical evolution' means exactly what you are saying here. Slight difference is that with 8.4 million pre-determined species, there is scope only of physical adaptation and not physical evolution.

I don't understand your thinking.
Also, you are saying 'pre-determined species'. This is a different meaning to saying that all species are made to exist at once at the beginning of creation. If the species are simply pre-determined, then there is complete scope for ToE.

We do need 8.4 million bodies to house 8.4 million levels of consciousness. For a round consciousness level, we need a suitable body. For a square level of consciousness, different suitable body is needed. Take for example a person, in a consciousness level, who likes to expose. That person, as per scriptures, after death is forced to take on a tree's body. Forced to stand naked throughout the year and suffer the scorching sun, rain, winter, winds...everything, for duration of life of that tree...there is a body for every level of consciousness.

Due to external environmental changes like pollution, ozone depletion, global warming etc, the outward appearance of this tree may change to acclimatize to changing environment. This is adaptation...not evolution.

When one species becomes 'extinct' on one planet, there is no reason to believe it does not continue to exist on another planet. After-all these 8.4 million species populate the whole cosmos!

First of all, I repeat that adaption is a part of evolution theory.

"An adaptation in biology is a trait with a current functional role in the life history of an organism that is maintained and evolved by means of natural selection. An adaptation refers to both the current state of being adapted and to the dynamic evolutionary process that leads to the adaptation." Adaptation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Secondly, what you have stated above still does not contradict or disprove evolution theory. While one planet is slowly evolving to allow for these numerous species, the same species may exist in other parts of the universe. Therefore there is no contradiction. There is still scope for evolution to occur on this planet.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Friend VD,

whether there are 8.4 million or one its the same as find its all consciousness!
Besides if cannot verify either through scientific means or by meditation on my own, it is only a 2nd hand fact or unverifiable fact at best one could have faith or belief in it which again is a mind matter.

Love & rgds

Pal,

I agree that it is all consciousness.

Supreme consciousness or God is the source of all that be. From that Supreme consciousness emanates science, meditation, mind, intelligence...everything. Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 10 Verses 4-5

With inferior energy like the intelligence, mind, senses, we cannot understand the superior source or 'creator'.

However, we cannot call it's existence a 2nd hand or an un-verifiable fact. We can understand the existence indirectly and through perception.

Example: During day-time, even if we cannot see the sun due to cloudy sky, we can understand sun/source of light exists by the presence of sun-rays.

If I see an automobile on road, I can understand behind that automobile, an engineer is there, even if cannot see him.

That Supreme consciousness Himself declares:

sarvasya c&#257;ha&#7743; h&#7771;di sannivi&#7779;&#7789;o
matta&#7717; sm&#7771;tir jñ&#257;nam apohana&#7743; ca
vedai&#347; ca sarvair aham eva vedyo
ved&#257;nta-k&#7771;d veda-vid eva c&#257;ham​

I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Ved&#257;nta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 15 Verse 15

Therefore, we cannot say it is unverifiable. When the method to know that Supreme consciousness is told by that Supreme Consciousness Himself, there is no scope for doubt left.

 

[zenzero]

Friend VD,
If you have understood that am against any scriptures then am sorry that was not the intention and be understood that am not against any writing either in scriptures or scientific journals or imaginative novels.
No am not against anything. am only pointing at THAT which gets automatically verified through owns own experience.
When we quote scriptures let us be understood that they [words of TRUTH] are written through someone meaning when one reaches to that state of oneness with existence *HE* is no more and so TRUTH or EXISTENCE becomes revealed through such mediums.
However since the listener or reader is yet to reach such a state of oneness the perception of such a person could be faulty and so all interpretations could be faulty though not necessarily so but what we humans hear and understand could be very different.
All experiences in communication where a mere sentence is orally told to a person and asked to pass the message down a line of people. It has been found that the original message has turned on its head.
BUT someone who has the experience of reaching to THAT state such a person has realized to that TRUTH which means he has verified all that is written in the scriptures.

Would one be satisfied that knowledge is written in books and available when required online at the press of a button so why study??
Realization is living the words themselves and what anyone does is only towards THAT realization!

Love & rgds

 

[jg22]

Vrindavana Das,

scriptures tell us that beyond the bramha jyoti is the Parmatma feature of Supreme Lord and beyond Parmatma expansion is the Supreme Personality of Godhead - Krishna or Bhagwaan.

Can you provide a mantra from shruti which says that 'beyond the brahma jyoti' is Krishna?

Thanks

 

[Vrindavana Das]

I don't understand your thinking.
Also, you are saying 'pre-determined species'. This is a different meaning to saying that all species are made to exist at once at the beginning of creation. If the species are simply pre-determined, then there is complete scope for ToE.

Friend Madhuri,

Yes, there is complete scope for Adaptation/evolution, but within the bracket of 8.4 million species.

Example: There are 4 Lac species of Human beings. Meaning, there are 4 Lac levels of consciousness of Humans. It is predetermined. There is no scope of 4 Lac AND ONE species to evolve. Any adaptation/evolution on any planet shall be WITHIN 4 Lac pre-determined human species for the universe.

First of all, I repeat that adaption is a part of evolution theory.

"An adaptation in biology is a trait with a current functional role in the life history of an organism that is maintained and evolved by means of natural selection. An adaptation refers to both the current state of being adapted and to the dynamic evolutionary process that leads to the adaptation." Adaptation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Secondly, what you have stated above still does not contradict or disprove evolution theory. While one planet is slowly evolving to allow for these numerous species, the same species may exist in other parts of the universe. Therefore there is no contradiction. There is still scope for evolution to occur on this planet.

Yes, you are right. I agree.
In that case, evolution scientifically loses it's significance, as the species that are slowly evolving on one planet will be from within 'already pre-existing 8.4 million species' present in the universe. Thereby, what ToE says about Humans having a common ancestor with primate species is meaningless.

I quote here an excerpt from science definition of ToE: It says that humans share a common ancestor with other monkey species. ToE says that humans belong to the primate species, which all varieties of ape and monkey belong to. 'Monkeys' are not the grandfathers of humans, they are the cousins of humans. The common ancestor that humans and other primates share is no longer in existence. All that is left of them are the fossils.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Vrindavana Das,



Can you provide a mantra from shruti which says that 'beyond the brahma jyoti' is Krishna?

Thanks

Hi JG,

In the &#346;r&#299;mad-Bh&#257;gavatam this conception of the Absolute Truth is explained thus:

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattva&#7745; yaj jñ&#257;nam advayam
brahmeti param&#257;tmeti
bhagav&#257;n iti &#347;abdyate​

"The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding by the knower of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such phases of the Absolute Truth are expressed as Brahman, Param&#257;tm&#257;, and Bhagav&#257;n." S.B. - 1.2.11

Same can be found in detail over here: Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 1 Chapter 2 Verse 11

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Friend VD,
If you have understood that am against any scriptures then am sorry that was not the intention and be understood that am not against any writing either in scriptures or scientific journals or imaginative novels.
No am not against anything. am only pointing at THAT which gets automatically verified through owns own experience.

Friend,

Nowhere have I understood or inferred that you are against the scriptures.

When we quote scriptures let us be understood that they [words of TRUTH] are written through someone meaning when one reaches to that state of oneness with existence *HE* is no more and so TRUTH or EXISTENCE becomes revealed through such mediums.
However since the listener or reader is yet to reach such a state of oneness the perception of such a person could be faulty and so all interpretations could be faulty though not necessarily so but what we humans hear and understand could be very different.

That is the reason we need a 'spiritual master' or a 'guru', in the proper disciplic succession line. The enlightened souls who will guide us through the forest of scriptures, helping us understand and save us from 'misunderstanding' the revealed scriptures.

Here is what the Supreme Consciousness Himself says about this:

tad viddhi pra&#7751;ip&#257;tena
paripra&#347;nena sevay&#257;
upadek&#7779;yanti te jñ&#257;na&#7743;
jñ&#257;ninas tattva-dar&#347;ina&#7717;​

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 4 Verse 34

All experiences in communication where a mere sentence is orally told to a person and asked to pass the message down a line of people. It has been found that the original message has turned on its head.

BUT someone who has the experience of reaching to THAT state such a person has realized to that TRUTH which means he has verified all that is written in the scriptures.

In scriptures, the verses are there in writing. So there is no scope of message turning it's head. The interpretation can be different, but the original 'sloka' or verse is as-it-is. Thereby we have been advised to take shelter of self-realized souls as stated above by God. Such souls can teach us the true meaning of the scriptures in it's essence.

Would one be satisfied that knowledge is written in books and available when required online at the press of a button so why study??
Realization is living the words themselves and what anyone does is only towards THAT realization!

Love & rgds

Without studying, no one can know what is available in any book or on the internet and also where to look for it.

To get to THAT realization which you mention, a PATH must be followed...path shown by the REALIZED souls. Studying and repeating /quoting from the books is also a part of following that path.

There are 9 processes of devotional service that form the path to THAT realization. Here are the first 3 processes, in order of importance:

Shravan - Hearing the glories of God (like we are doing)
Kirtan - Singing/discussing the glories of God (like we are doing)
Smaran - remembering (like what we are doing)

So you see, even searching the books and net can be utilized in the service of Supreme Lord to further oneself in the spiritual path.

Please check here: Mythology of Vishnu and his incarnations - Manohar Laxman Varadpande - Google Books

 

[zenzero]

Friend VD,

Thank you for your response.
There is no denying that whatever you have stated are correct.
Yes, a guru/master is better than reading and all that.
Am only stressing that all that is an exercise required to reach the state and reaching itself is most important; how one reaches then becomes redundant as such.
Yes, everything in itself is also a path as it too is part of THAT!
It is all about transcending the mind which is in between THAT which is the source and destiny.
Love & rgds

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Am only stressing that all that is an exercise required to reach the state and reaching itself is most important; how one reaches then becomes redundant as such.

Friend,

Suppose you realize 'THAT'. Then what? What will you do then? Any answer? ...something like 'float' in that.

However, if we practice the path of loving devotion to 'THAT PERSONAL GOD' then our PATH, even after we achieve God, will not become redundant. Once with God, I will be involved in loving exchanges with that God...is it not?

Yes, everything in itself is also a path as it too is part of THAT!
It is all about transcending the mind which is in between THAT which is the source and destiny.
Love & rgds

If I use my mind to to please and lovingly serve THAT GOD, where is the need to transcend mind? I would WANT a mind in that case! Mind's absorption in THAT TRANSCENDENTAL GOD will make my mind transcendental.

Example: An iron rod (mind), when immersed in fire (Transcendental thoughts of God), after sometime will become red hot and shall start acting like fire (become transcendental). Is it not

 

[zenzero]

Friend VD,

Thank you for your responses.
Possibly we are not following each others words and pointers.
We shall try and find another opening another thread to share!

Love & rgds

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Friend VD,

Thank you for your responses.
Possibly we are not following each others words and pointers.
We shall try and find another opening another thread to share!

Love & rgds

Friend,

You are right.

Seems we are talking two different philosophies.
You are talking of impersonal consciousness. I am talking of Personal God.
Your philosophy does not need mind. My philosophy believes in deploys mind in serving that God.

I had genuinely wanted to understand what is the end result, as per your philosophy, after 'removing mind' and reaching THAT. What then.

Neways! No hard feelings I hope. God bless

 

[jg22]

Can you provide a mantra from shruti which says that 'beyond the brahma jyoti' is Krishna?

Vrindavana Das, in response, quotes from a Puraana.

Thought so.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Thought so.

Two things:

1. Vedas are also referred to as 'Shruti' because in earlier times, they were handed down through aural reception. All Puranas, Upnishads etc. have been derived from Vedas. Therefore, all the scriptures are also referred to as Shruti.

2. The idea is to discuss religion. Not trying to embarrass others and pointing mistakes