Evolution?

[jg22]

Vrindavana Das,

Vedas are also referred to as 'Shruti' because in earlier times, they were handed down through aural reception. All Puranas, Upnishads etc. have been derived from Vedas. Therefore, all the scriptures are also referred to as Shruti.

'Shruti' is a very specific derivation. When we say Shruti we are referring to the four Vedas and their various recensions only (this is the established view). All texts of most religions were originally transmitted orally, so it is pointless to derive this meaning from the word Shruti. The Vedas are called Shruti because they are unauthored; they were not created by any man, so the traditional explanation goes.

The Vedas consist of Samhitas (Rg,Yajur,Sama,Atharva), Brahmanas, Aaranyakas and the earliest Upanishads. When I say Shruti I am referring to these only. These were later written down in Vedic Sanskrit, therefore they are called the Vedic texts.

Bhaagavata Puraana is not a Vedic text, it is a Puraana. Puraanas are tertiary sectarian and mythological writings which are supposed to derive their authority from the Vedas by supporting them (ie, not contradicting them).

I asked you to provide a verse from the Shruti to support the claim that Krishna lies beyond 'brahma jyoti'. If this claim is found in the Puraana, then it should should echo something found in the Shruti, therefore I ask again if you can find the verse (perhaps in the Upanishads) from which the Bhaagavata's claim derives.

Thank you.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Bhaagavata Puraana is not a Vedic text, it is a Puraana. Puraanas are tertiary sectarian and mythological writings which are supposed to derive their authority from the Vedas by supporting them (ie, not contradicting them).

Also as I am sure you understand. If they contradict them they are Nastika. This is the definition of an orthodox belief system in Hinduism. If you don't follow the Vedas your school of thought is not Vedic even if you support your argument with the Purana.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Vrindavana Das,

'Shruti' is a very specific derivation. When we say Shruti we are referring to the four Vedas and their various recensions only (this is the established view). All texts of most religions were originally transmitted orally, so it is pointless to derive this meaning from the word Shruti. The Vedas are called Shruti because they are unauthored; they were not created by any man, so the traditional explanation goes.

Jg,

Why are the Vedas called Srutis ?
The Vedas originally existed only in sound form, they are sometimes referred to as Sruti. In scriptures, Sruti means that which is heard. The real reason for giving the name Sruti to the Vedas is that Cosmic Vibrations which are inaudible and cannot be seen were heard by the mediating Sages as sound. That is also one of the reasons why the sound aspect is given so much importance. Great stress is therefore laid by the teachers of Vedas on the correct pronunciation of the word and the intonation while chanting.

You can find same here: Vedas -

The Vedas consist of Samhitas (Rg,Yajur,Sama,Atharva), Brahmanas, Aaranyakas and the earliest Upanishads. When I say Shruti I am referring to these only. These were later written down in Vedic Sanskrit, therefore they are called the Vedic texts.

All the scriptures have been derived from Vedas. Vedas have emnated from the breathing of Supreme Lord, and have been handed down by method of hearing over the ages. Therefore, Shruti refers to all scriptures.

Bhaagavata Puraana is not a Vedic text, it is a Puraana. Puraanas are tertiary sectarian and mythological writings which are supposed to derive their authority from the Vedas by supporting them (ie, not contradicting them).

You are right but only superficially.

Bhagavata Purana comes from 'Chatursloki Bhagavata' which is the EXTRACT of the Vedas. It teaches vedas in ESSENCE - devotional service to Supreme Lord, and not literally. It is said that Srimad Bhagavatam is the ripe fruit in the tree of the Vedas. Therefore, it is also called the Spotless Purana.

I asked you to provide a verse from the Shruti to support the claim that Krishna lies beyond 'brahma jyoti'. If this claim is found in the Puraana, then it should should echo something found in the Shruti, therefore I ask again if you can find the verse (perhaps in the Upanishads) from which the Bhaagavata's claim derives.

Thank you.

I am interested in the fruit and not in the tree. In my mind, we should try to get inside the depth or essence of scriptures. Not hover on the superficial platform. Sorry, I cannot help you there.

 

[Madhuri]

Friend Madhuri,

Yes, there is complete scope for Adaptation/evolution, but within the bracket of 8.4 million species.

Example: There are 4 Lac species of Human beings. Meaning, there are 4 Lac levels of consciousness of Humans. It is predetermined. There is no scope of 4 Lac AND ONE species to evolve. Any adaptation/evolution on any planet shall be WITHIN 4 Lac pre-determined human species for the universe.

Ok, so I don't have any problem with the number you are providing. My main argument is that physical evolution does occur. As long as the physical bodies that exist in the universe maintain the 8.4m levels of consciousness, then we are agreed that physical evolution may in fact be a reality.

Yes, you are right. I agree.
In that case, evolution scientifically loses it's significance, as the species that are slowly evolving on one planet will be from within 'already pre-existing 8.4 million species' present in the universe. Thereby, what ToE says about Humans having a common ancestor with primate species is meaningless.

I am not sure that it becomes meaningless. Evolution is an observation of what happens over time. The meaning or significance one gives this is individual. To me it is very interesting and is helping us in the fields of psychology, biology and medicine etc. but when it comes to our spiritual journey, it is not at all important.

 

[zenzero]

Friend VD,

Seems we are talking two different philosophies.
You are talking of impersonal consciousness. I am talking of Personal God.
Your philosophy does not need mind. My philosophy believes in deploys mind in serving that God.
I had genuinely wanted to understand what is the end result, as per your philosophy, after 'removing mind' and reaching THAT. What then.

Thank you for that understanding as personally was unable to convey it so beautifully as you have done.

Personal understanding: What ever we label *consciousness* be it Brahma/God/etc. all forms and no-forms including us are parts of IT.
This is realized when the mind is still and when thoughts travel through the connection of the individual consciousness and the universal consciousness breaks and so we meditate to tune the two consciousness and that is what merging is. This tuning in continues till there are no more thoughts which travel through the mind. The mind is clear of all its delusions and this is in the last stage of samadhi.

According to Patañjali[9] samādhi has three different categories:
Savikalpa - This is an interface of trans meditation[clarification needed] and higher awareness state, asamprajñata. The state is so named because mind retains its consciousness, which is why in savikalpa samādhi one can experience guessing (vitarka), thought (vicāra), bliss (ānanda) and self-awareness (asmita).[9] In Sanskrit, "kalpa" means "imagination". Vikalpa (an etymological derivation of which could be 'विशेषः कल्पः विकल्पः।') connotes imagination. Patañjali in the Yoga Sūtras defines "vikalpa" saying: 'शब्द-ज्ञानानुपाति वस्तु-शून्यो-विकल्पः।'. "Sa" is a prefix which means "with". So "savikalpa" means "with vikalpa" or "with imagination". Ramana Maharshi defines "savikalpa samādhi" as, "holding on to reality with effort".[10]
Asamprajñata is a step forward from savikalpa. According to Patañjali,[9] asamprajñata is a higher awareness state with absence of gross awareness.[11]
Nirvikalpa or sanjeevan - This is the highest transcendent state of consciousness. In this state there is no longer mind, duality, a subject-object relationship or experience.[12] Upon entering nirvikalpa samādhi, the differences we saw before have faded and we can see everything as one. In this condition nothing but pure awareness remains and nothing detracts from wholeness and perfection.

First merging is stage one then when all thoughts are gone it is the last stage.
Meaning one has to continue meditating till the last stage after merger begins and then the person himself is the PATH/WAY unto himself.
A REALIZED AVATAR!!

Love & rgds

 

[jg22]

Vrindavana Das,

Why are the Vedas called Srutis ?

I know all of this; the reason I specified about the meaning of 'Shruti' relating to apaurusheya shabda is because that is what makes the Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aaranyakas and Upanishads unique and distinct from all other (hindu and non-hindu) literature. The primary authority for a given teaching or concept begins and flows down from them, and if a text, teaching or idea contradicts what is found in them then it can safely be rejected as spurious (heterodox). This includes the Puraanas. Since the Puraanas are not apaurusheya they are not infallible, and since they are not infallible they are open to spurious doctrines creeping in which contradict the Shruti, therefore they must always be in accordance with Shruti.

You've said that the Puraana you often quote from contains the very essence of the Vedas; it is the ripe fruit of the Vedic tree. If this be so then you should easily be able to point to something in the Shruti which serves as the bones for the idea of Krishna being beyond brahma jyoti, as well as the whole host of other ideas which support your view.

I am interested in the fruit and not in the tree. In my mind, we should try to get inside the depth or essence of scriptures. Not hover on the superficial platform.

Are you implying that the Vedic texts don't contain the essence of the Vedas? Is Shruti the superficial platform?

From my point of view, surely the Vedas are the essence of all the various scriptures- everything else is an interpretation of and a dilution of that essence, including the Puraanas.

It's unfortunate that you won't support the ideas you champion with Shruti. it would've been interesting to see the source material; though I admit, since I am suspicious of the authenticity of ISCKON sampradaya's teachings I came in to the conversation with a preconceived notion that you would not be able to support them.



Now, I think, we are going off-topic, so thanks for your time.




(Do pm me if you'd like to carry the discussion on, though.)

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Ok, so I don't have any problem with the number you are providing. My main argument is that physical evolution does occur. As long as the physical bodies that exist in the universe maintain the 8.4m levels of consciousness, then we are agreed that physical evolution may in fact be a reality.

Right! But when physical evolution is happening within 8.4 million species, it should be called physical adaptation. The fundamental building block of ToE that assumes a common ancestral link - like in the case of man and monkey, is rendered baseless then. This defeats evolution happening from one species to another. Leaving scope for evolution only within a particular specie...adaptation.

I am not sure that it becomes meaningless. Evolution is an observation of what happens over time. The meaning or significance one gives this is individual. To me it is very interesting and is helping us in the fields of psychology, biology and medicine etc. but when it comes to our spiritual journey, it is not at all important.

What science knows as evolution is a close proximity of traits/structures/features between two independent species. That, in itself, does not prove evolution of one from another, like science assumes. However, based on this false understanding and close semblance of the two, biology/psychology/medicine treats the lower species as guinea pig for the imaginary benefit of higher one. Exploitation of one for the benefit of another.

Chances are high that this lower species animal ends up leading a physically mutated, paralyzed or a vegetable-like life after he has been experimented upon. In the process, he may even suffer a painful and a miserable death.

On the other hand, due to karmic reactions, these scientists are forced to lead a mutated/vegetable-like lives later.

Scientists then will again experiment on poor innocent animals to find cure...again more suffferings...and this cycle goes on! This is no development..it is no progress and it definitely is no gift of science to mankind or the world!

Only when we keep God in the center of all our activities, be it psychology/biology or medicine, only then can we bring about actual benefit to everybody - emotionally, physically, materially or spiritually.

All that the world lacks and desperately needs is Krishna Consciousness!

 

[Madhuri]

Right! But when physical evolution is happening within 8.4 million species, it should be called physical adaptation. The fundamental building block of ToE that assumes a common ancestral link - like in the case of man and monkey, is rendered baseless then. This defeats evolution happening from one species to another. Leaving scope for evolution only within a particular specie...adaptation.

I am so sorry but I'm having difficulty understanding this. It's possible that I'm misunderstanding the concept you have presented.

I am understanding 2 possibilities:

1) The Earth is created with the simplest forms of life. Over time, they evolve into all the species that we see today and will continue to produce more variety. This is possible because the same or similar bodies exist on other planets within the universe, thus not contradicting the statement that 8.4 million exist.

2) The 8.4 million do not exist simultaneously. They are pre-determined, but are allowed to develop over the course of creation. Thus not contradicting ToE.

Because I am not sure what or if I am misunderstanding something in your explanations. It would help me if you explain why one or both of the above interpretations cannot work based on what you have already told me.

Only when we keep God in the center of all our activities, be it psychology/biology or medicine, only then can we bring about actual benefit to everybody - emotionally, physically, materially or spiritually. [/I]

All that the world lacks and desperately needs is Krishna Consciousness!

I agree with this

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Friend VD,

Personal understanding: What ever we label *consciousness* be it Brahma/God/etc. all forms and no-forms including us are parts of IT.
This is realized when the mind is still and when thoughts travel through the connection of the individual consciousness and the universal consciousness breaks and so we meditate to tune the two consciousness and that is what merging is. This tuning in continues till there are no more thoughts which travel through the mind. The mind is clear of all its delusions and this is in the last stage of samadhi.

First merging is stage one then when all thoughts are gone it is the last stage.
Meaning one has to continue meditating till the last stage after merger begins and then the person himself is the PATH/WAY unto himself.
A REALIZED AVATAR!!

Love & rgds

Friend,

Thank you for clarity on the path you are talking of. This path of Patanjali Yoga has been spoken of by Supreme Lord in Bhagvad Gita as well. It can be found in detail over here: Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 6 Verses 20-23

I want to point here that the system of Patanjali yoga very difficult to follow in the present modern times (Kali-Yuga). In-fact, it is not at all viable and should not be followed. It needs us to have complete control over our minds. However, in present times, with so many distractions, tensions, frustrations, complicated lifestyle, meat-eating, cigarettes, illicit sex, alcohol, gambling, poor diet, irregularities in eating habits...it is not possible to have such a complete control over the mind. This method was viable in Sat-Yuga (bygone age), when people had the required environment and qualifications to practice such method of achieving God consciousness.

Supreme Lord Himself has given the method for present modern times (Kali-Yuga). It is called 'Harinaam Sankirtan' - Congregational chanting of the Holy names of Lord. Supreme Lord has invested all His energies in His Holy names.

This is also called MANTRA MEDITATION.

One should chant the following mantra, with Holy transcendental names of God, and carefully hear the sound vibrations:

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare!!
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare!!​

You can understand the importance of what I am saying by the following statement of the scriptures:

harer nama harer nama
harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva
nasty eva gatir anyatha​

hareh nama -- the holy name of the Lord; hareh nama -- the holy name of the Lord; hareh nama -- the holy name of the Lord; eva -- certainly; kevalam -- only; kalau -- in this Age of Kali; na asti -- there is none; eva -- certainly; na asti -- there is none; eva -- certainly; na asti -- there is none; eva -- certainly; gatih -- progress; anyatha -- otherwise.

'For spiritual progress in this Age of Kali, there is no alternative, there is no alternative, there is no alternative to the holy name, the holy name, the holy name of the Lord.' C.C. Adi 7.76

'There is no alternative to the holy name' has been stressed THRICE so we can understand the seriousness of what the scriptures are pointing to.

I would urge you read the whole thing. Many of your doubts will clear-up.
It is here: Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila Chapter 7 Verse 76

 

[Vrindavana Das]

1) The Earth is created with the simplest forms of life. Over time, they evolve into all the species that we see today and will continue to produce more variety. This is possible because the same or similar bodies exist on other planets within the universe, thus not contradicting the statement that 8.4 million exist.

2) The 8.4 million do not exist simultaneously. They are pre-determined, but are allowed to develop over the course of creation. Thus not contradicting ToE.

Because I am not sure what or if I am misunderstanding something in your explanations. It would help me if you explain why one or both of the above interpretations cannot work based on what you have already told me.

Both these possibilities are ruled out on the strength of the following verse of Bhagvad Gita:

saha-yajñāḥ prajāḥ sṛṣṭvā
purovāca prajāpatiḥ
anena prasaviṣyadhvam
eṣa vo 'stv iṣṭa-kāma-dhuk​

In the beginning of creation, the Lord of all creatures sent forth generations of men and demigods, along with sacrifices for Viṣṇu, and blessed them by saying, "Be thou happy by this yajña [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you everything desirable for living happily and achieving liberation."B.G. 3.1

Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 3 Verse 10

Please note the use of words like: In the begining of creation. Also, it says: sent forth generations of men and demigods.

Meaning:

For situation 1 -
The earth is created with ALL life forms.
Species are all created and do not evolve.

For situation 2 -
8.4 m exist simultaneously.
Species do not develop over course of creation.

Nowhere does it say - In the beginning of creation, generations of unicellular and simple life forms were sent that evolved into men and demigods...

 

[zenzero]

Friend VD,

Supreme Lord Himself has given the method for present modern times (Kali-Yuga). It is called 'Harinaam Sankirtan' - Congregational chanting of the Holy names of Lord. Supreme Lord has invested all His energies in His Holy names.

Consciousness which you label Supreme Lord is also the guide when the *thoughts* comes on the way and with that guidance am following.]ie. when that *am* is present]
Time is eternal and consciousness has been, presently IS and will remain through any time frame humans may have given label to and any case everything runs concurrently like Brahma/Vishnu/Mahesh i.e. creation, preservation and destruction. Yes at a moment one may appear to be in a dominant state but the other two will be there concurrently or else life cannot be there.
Similarly are yugas.
The guiding principle of all scriptures is CONSCIOUSNESS which guides this unconsciousness too and if the guide wishes to guide differently; so be IT!

Best Wishes!

Love & rgds

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Friend VD,



Consciousness which you label Supreme Lord is also the guide when the *thoughts* comes on the way and with that guidance am following.]ie. when that *am* is present]

Friend,

That 'Consciousness' has blessed us with intelligence so we can realize that Consciousness. As a friend and well-wisher, I felt it my duty to tell you that in present times, it is a herculean task to follow the path you are treading...

kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām
avyaktāsakta-cetasām
avyaktā hi gatir duḥkhaḿ
dehavadbhir avāpyate​

For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 12 Verse 5

Time is eternal and consciousness has been, presently IS and will remain through any time frame humans may have given label to and any case everything runs concurrently like Brahma/Vishnu/Mahesh i.e. creation, preservation and destruction. Yes at a moment one may appear to be in a dominant state but the other two will be there concurrently or else life cannot be there.
Similarly are yugas.

You are right. Isvara (the Supreme Lord), jiva (the living entity), prakriti (nature), kala (eternal time) and karma (activity) are all explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Out of these five, the Lord, the living entities, material nature and time are eternal. The manifestation of prakriti may be temporary, but it is not false.

The guiding principle of all scriptures is CONSCIOUSNESS which guides this unconsciousness too and if the guide wishes to guide differently; so be IT!

Everybody has a right to chose their own paths. Even your Consciousness or my Supreme Lord - Krishna does not interfere in the free will of any living entity.

iti te jñānam ākhyātaḿ
guhyād guhyataraḿ mayā
vimṛśyaitad aśeṣeṇa
yathecchasi tathā kuru​

Thus I have explained to you knowledge still more confidential. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do.

The Lord has already explained to Arjuna the knowledge of brahma-bhūta. One who is in the brahma-bhūta condition is joyful; he never laments, nor does he desire anything. That is due to confidential knowledge. Kṛṣṇa also discloses knowledge of the Supersoul. This is also Brahman knowledge, knowledge of Brahman, but it is superior.
Here the words yathecchasi tathā kuru — "As you like, you may act" — indicate that God does not interfere with the little independence of the living entity. In Bhagavad-gītā, the Lord has explained in all respects how one can elevate his living condition. The best advice imparted to Arjuna is to surrender unto the Supersoul seated within his heart. By right discrimination, one should agree to act according to the order of the Supersoul. That will help one become situated constantly in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the highest perfectional stage of human life. Arjuna is being directly ordered by the Personality of Godhead to fight. Surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead is in the best interest of the living entities. It is not for the interest of the Supreme. Before surrendering, one is free to deliberate on this subject as far as the intelligence goes; that is the best way to accept the instruction of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such instruction comes also through the spiritual master, the bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa.Bhagavad-gita As It Is Chapter 18 Verse 63

 

[zenzero]

Friend VD,

Thank you once again!

it is not that have chosen any path; it is the path that has chosen me; and so helpless in discrimination between two paths as all appear to be reeching the same state and there is no superior or inferior in the quality of Consciousness in any way. A drop of the ocean is an ocean unto itself!

Whatever you may state is because you are attached to a particular path which also is an attachment, personal have no such attachment and whatever are there slowly are rising to the conscious level to consciousness itself is guiding what needs to be done.

If Arjuna had consciousness in the form of Krishna to guide him, it is his past karma to deserve Krishna and if this individual here deserves any such guidance in human form; consciousness ITSELF will make the necessary arrangements; who am *I* to question THAT?

Once again thank you for your responses!

Love & rgds

 

[Shântoham]

Shrigurubhyo namaH

In VedAnta, the theory of creation is only a temporary acceptance; it does not have an absolute status. This is because, while Science accepts the observed universe and then embarks upon explaining the phenomena, VedAnta, instead of accepting the universe, questions its very existence. With this fundamental difference between the approaches of Science and VedAnta, all theories advanced in the field of science have either no or only a seeming acceptance in VedAnta.
The Upanishads and ShankarAchArya have made it amply clear that Creation is not an ontological reality in VedAnta. For example, in the MAndUkya Upanishad, after describing the three states of waking, dream, and sleep, the Upanishad in the 7th mantra ‘nAntaH prajnam…’ negates the three states (consisting of the micro and macrocosm) in one sweep by the word ‘prapanchopashamam’.
This word means that the Absolute Reality, the TurIya/Brahman, is free of the world. It is Advaitam, the realization of which ensures freedom from bondage.
GaudapAdAchArya makes it clear that the various scriptural passages on creation are only a means to enlighten the aspirant about the Truth, Brahman, and have no more purpose than this (KArikA 3.15). His ajAtivAda says it all.
ShankarAchArya too has clarified that the passages describing the creation of the universe are of only a vyAvahArika nature, aimed at impressing upon the aspirant the Infinitude of Brahman.
The purpose of VedAnta is not to explain the observed universe, although it does sometimes give a rather detailed explanation of the process, the products, etc. VedAnta is concerned primarily with the observer, the conscious entity, the jIva. It is this jIva that is the subject matter of VedAnta. This entity is the human being. On the other hand, science has for its purpose the study of the observed universe and consciousness is only a part of that study.
In VedAnta, the conscious jIva is a beginningless eternal entity. For the Darwinian Theory the human species comes at the end of evolution, preceded by a number of lower forms of life. VedAnta differs in this fundamental stage itself. For VedAnta there is no starting point at all for the human being. All forms of sub-human lives (which science accepts) and super-human lives (in which science does not believe) are a consequence of human behavior in some life. VedAnta holds that man’s adhering to the do’s and don’ts of the Vedic teaching decides what kind of life is in store for the jIva. The Bhagavad-GItA 3. 10 teaches that the Creator gave out the Vedic teaching along/simultaneous with the creation of the living beings. The onus of knowing the Vedic teaching and following it rests upon the intelligent human beings.
Thus what science holds as a very unevolved life species is only a once-upon-a-time ‘evolved’ (as per science) human being. With this fundamental difference between the Darwinian approach and VedAntic approach, there is hardly any place for adapting or accommodating the former into the latter system. Evolution as a concept has no doubt a place in VedAnta: it is the evolving of the caring human being from his latent animal tendencies, AsurI guNas, to the level of a human being and further evolving from this state to the predominantly sAttvic tendencies, daivI guNas. This concern with demoniac and divine qualities is all about VedAnta sAdhanA.

To sum up:

1. Creation is real in science while it is only a temporary acceptance in VedAnta.
2. The jIva, human species, is an eternal, uncreated entity. There is no time when the jIva, Consciousness, was not there and will not be there. Darwinian Theory has that the human species is the last arrival in the scheme of evolution of species.
3. In view of this specific fundamental difference between VedAnta and the Darwinian Theory, there cannot be a synthesis of the two.
4. VedAnta is in no way worse off without the Darwinian-type theory. Its evolution concept is only the improvement of the human mind to make it fit for the realization of its Atman/Brahman nature.
5. The very purpose of VedAnta is the human species; it is its very subject matter. But living beings, life, in general is the subject matter of Darwinian Theory.
6. There is a passage in the BrihadAranyaka Upanishad (4.3.37), and commented upon by ShankarAchArya, to the effect that the jIva creates his ‘next’ world by his karmic material. The next world stands created and is ‘ready’ to receive the new-born being into its fold.
7. His karmas decide what kind of world he will be in, in the subsequent birth. The entire world of matter and other beings is a creation of this one jIva. Every jIva thus creates its own world but what we have is one single world that is a jigsaw model of all the worlds of all the jIvas. This total creation is called Ishvara’s Srishti. The Mega Blueprint takes into account the micro karmic inputs of all the jIvas.
8. This kind of a model is not accepted by science. Matter is not a creation of consciousness for science. In VedAnta matter is a concoction, a creation, a projection of consciousness. This is what adhyAsa is all about. Ref. the 13th chapter of the Bhagavad-GItA.

Tat Sat BrahmArpaNamastu​

 

[ratikala]

dear shamtoham,

7. His karmas decide what kind of world he will be in, in the subsequent birth. The entire world of matter and other beings is a creation of this one jIva. Every jIva thus creates its own world but what we have is one single world that is a jigsaw model of all the worlds of all the jIvas. This total creation is called Ishvara’s Srishti. The Mega Blueprint takes into account the micro karmic inputs of all the jIvas.

jai jai :bow:

 

[zenzero]

Friend Shantoham,

Thank you for your beautiful post! Frubals.

However am not sure about the following points:

2. The jIva, human species, is an eternal, uncreated entity. There is no time when the jIva, Consciousness, was not there and will not be there. Darwinian Theory has that the human species is the last arrival in the scheme of evolution of species.
3. In view of this specific fundamental difference between VedAnta and the Darwinian Theory, there cannot be a synthesis of the two.
4. VedAnta is in no way worse off without the Darwinian-type theory. Its evolution concept is only the improvement of the human mind to make it fit for the realization of its Atman/Brahman nature.
5. The very purpose of VedAnta is the human species; it is its very subject matter. But living beings, life, in general is the subject matter of Darwinian Theory.

Though have not studied the scriptures so deeply but personal understanding is that humans evolved and humans are the latest creation through that evolution. Scriptures are written by humans for the humans and to the humans but still scriptures cannot neglect any kinds of jivas and also consciousness includes the mind faculties which goes into science.

 

[Marble]

@shamtoham
Could you please use a larger font?
I have difficulties reading your text.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

The wonder...the splendour...the grandeur...
...and its only ONE...of the COUNTLESS...

Personal or impersonal creator...!

[youtube]uhV4me_k8Y8[/youtube]
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[Shântoham]

Shrigurubhyo namaH

Zenzero

Mine was an exposition of the vision of VedAnta concerning evolution. It was not an attempt to debate evolution. In fact, to discuss samsAra from within samsAra is – although interesting for the samsAric mind – a complete waste of time.
Therefore I cannot give you a different answer than what I wrote before. In the Bhagavad-GItA 3rd chapter the verse 10 says:

sahayajñAH prajAH sRSTvA purovAca prajApatiH |
anena prasaviSyadhvam eSa vo 'stviSTakAmadhuk ||

//In the beginning, the Creator, having created mankind together with sacrifice (yajña), said: “By this (yajña, sacrifice) shall you multiply. May this (yajña, sacrifice) be a wish fulfilling cow for you.//

This means that coeval with creation the Vedic scripture was made available to mankind. Only humans in creation can use the Vedic teaching. And that requires the availability of humans even at the beginning of creation. This is not the way the Darwinian theory goes. There is an evolution from very less or no intelligent beings to the highly intelligent human. This position is not compatible with the VedAnta.
The view that there is and there is not creation is quite acceptable. But even from the standpoint of ‘there is creation’, the Darwinian method is unacceptable for the reason I stated above.

On a personal level, thank you for your welcoming words.

Tat Sat BrahmArpaNamastu​

 

[zenzero]

Friend Shantoham,

Personal understanding from what you mention is that: EXISTENCE is living HERE-NOW and since existence is eternal and limitless we find that to merge with THAT source is possible mostly for humans to end this bondage of form as after the human form the jiva will not appear in any form unless it wants to. So the pointers written in words is only good for the language of humans and so the Vedas are limited by, for & to humans.
[please correct, if there is anything against what have mentioned]

The Bible which similarly has limited itself to human existence and for this one life [in fact all the Abrahamic paths have] done so. So rebirth or reincarnation has been left out in scriptures of those paths as the enlightened ones do have realization of such matters too, but due to limitations of the understanding of the audiences due to their background limited the subject.

Love & rgds