Ex-Christian here.

[Copernicus]

Since the teleological argument is not "an argument in favor of an omnimax God," one wonders whether your drivel is willful distortion or woeful ignorance.

Jay, I realize it's futile to offer you advice, but try not to behave like a putz. Christians love those arguments precisely because they think it leads them to such a God. After all, contradictions can be used to arrive at any conclusion.

 

[Copernicus]

Well, as a storyteller, and a fan of fantasy and mythology, as well as a person who believes stories are meant to teach lessons, I will disagree.

Even fictional characters, no matter how silly, need to be taken seriously, either as role models, or as examples of what not to do. This is the purpose of most childrens' stories, and I don't see why adult-oriented stories have to be different.

You and I disagree on more than that. We disagree on what it means to "take them seriously."

 

[Riverwolf]

You and I disagree on more than that. We disagree on what it means to "take them seriously."

Well, I'm sure we also disagree on my belief that both of our attitudes towards fictional characters are equally right. ^_^

So, since there's a bit of miscommunication going on, what do you mean by "take them seriously?"

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Then the fictional Brendan Fraser character can reasonably infer that he has evidence in favor of the Jewish religion. The movie audience cannot make the same inference.

Well, it was just a movie, and such an in depth look is not needed. It was just the post that reminded me of that scene.

Actually, it wasn't really the prayer that worked...it was the Hebrew language that was recognized as the "language of the slaves" that spared Benny. If he would have said "Twinkle twinkle little bat how I wonder where you're at" in Hebrew he would have gotten the same response.

It's been awhile since I have watched those movies. At first I thought it was the second one, but I wasn't too sure, then I thought maybe the third one then I remembered I haven't seen the third one. Then I did remember it was from the first one, but not too many details.

 

[Copernicus]

So, since there's a bit of miscommunication going on, what do you mean by "take them seriously?"

"Take their existence seriously." That is what we were talking about, not whether one can draw moral or educational lessons from fiction.

 

[Riverwolf]

"Take their existence seriously." That is what we were talking about, not whether one can draw moral or educational lessons from fiction.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

"Literally" might have been a more accurate term, actually.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

Did you know that the bible says it's OK to beat your wife and children?

There's the passage if you don't believe me.

I have yet to actually read that scripture.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

Did you also know that it says if you make fun of someone who is bald you are to be mauled be a bear?


"As (Elisha) was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. 'Go on up, you baldhead!' they said. 'Go on up, you baldhead!' He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths" (2 Kings 2:23-24 NIV).

No, this is act of self defense by Elisha. There was some youths at least 42 of an unknown number, but they came out to make fun of Elisha. When you got a huge group stupid kids who like to pick on them and they out number someone that much it usually turns to violence so I see this as Elisha summoning the bears to protect himself from this threatening mob.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

Why would a God who cares for us and loves us SO much, allow his creations to suffer. When people are killed from earthquakes, diseases, famine, ect. People say "It's Gods will". Well I'm here to tell you I will never worship a God who claims to love his creations then torture them.

.

I'm sorry, but your wrong its is man's fault that death and suffering has come to this world.
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. but where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 5:19-21

Even if bad things happens it happens to everybody whether or not they deserve it or not.
"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Mathew 5:45

 

[enchanted_one1975]

I am a former Christian myself, and I can so relate to how good it feels to question the lifetime of lies and seek the truth. However, I chose a different path that deals with creation, Gods, and Goddesses. I believe that religions and science can co-exist. Oh, and welcome to RF.

 

[Ethos88]

No, this is act of self defense by Elisha. There was some youths at least 42 of an unknown number, but they came out to make fun of Elisha. When you got a huge group stupid kids who like to pick on them and they out number someone that much it usually turns to violence so I see this as Elisha summoning the bears to protect himself from this threatening mob.

So you are telling me that being made fun of for being bald is punishable by a bear mauling 42 children? Somewhat overboard don't you think?

 

[Ethos88]

I'm sorry, but your wrong its is man's fault that death and suffering has come to this world.
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. but where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 5:19-21

Even if bad things happens it happens to everybody whether or not they deserve it or not.
"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Mathew 5:45

How is quoting scripture a relevant and even valid argument? If I were to make quotes from a research paper that was proven to be completely wrong, would that then make sense?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jay, I realize it's futile to offer you advice, but try not to behave like a putz. Christians love those arguments precisely because they think it leads them to such a God.

Perhaps some do - I'm sure there is nothing about Christianity (or, for that matter, Judaism) the prevents some of its adherents from making childish generalizations and stupid arguments comparable to yours. Therefore?

 

[Copernicus]

Perhaps some do - I'm sure there is nothing about Christianity (or, for that matter, Judaism) the prevents some of its adherents from making childish generalizations and stupid arguments comparable to yours. Therefore?

Frankly, your gratuitous insults are a bit puzzling to me. If you can avoid terms like "childish" and "stupid" in the future, and you have something of interest to say, I'll be happy to respond in kind. Otherwise, not interested.

 

[tarasan]

After my entire life, I have finally had the courage to question my faith, and boy does it feel good. I feel a sense of enlightenment upon me, as if I am no longer being held back by some imaginative "force". That's becuase now I can allow myself to accept science as the fundamental explanation of our existence, not some book that claims the earth is flat and only 6000 years old, and somehow forgot to mention dinosaurs.

My argument is this, however.

Explain to me why you do not believe in the Olympian Gods and I will explain to you why any "God" postulated cannot and logically should not exist.

i dotn believe in the olympian gods because I already accepted a faith that is exclusive.

your turn.

 

[Copernicus]

i dotn believe in the olympian gods because I already accepted a faith that is exclusive.

Tarasan, it is begging the question to say that you have already settled on a single faith to believe in. This is not new information. The question is how you exclude all the others to arrive at that faith. One of the reasons to reject Christianity is that the alternatives no longer seem less reasonable. The question is, is any religious faith more reasonable than another? Most of the world now rejects the existence of the Olympian gods. That religion used to be taken seriously, but it is now dead. Why?

 

[*Anne*]

After my entire life, I have finally had the courage to question my faith, and boy does it feel good. I feel a sense of enlightenment upon me, as if I am no longer being held back by some imaginative "force".

Hi Ethos and welcome.

There's nothing wrong with questioning things, examining them. No matter what path you take, be sure to keep an open mind and heart.

 

[tarasan]

Tarasan, it is begging the question to say that you have already settled on a single faith to believe in. This is not new information. The question is how you exclude all the others to arrive at that faith. One of the reasons to reject Christianity is that the alternatives no longer seem less reasonable. The question is, is any religious faith more reasonable than another? Most of the world now rejects the existence of the Olympian gods. That religion used to be taken seriously, but it is now dead. Why?

begging the question is when I make a conclusion already assumed in the premise

the new guy said this

"Explain to me why you do not believe in the Olympian Gods and I will explain to you why any "God" postulated cannot and logically should not exist."

my premises are as follows

1.My God exists
2.For my God to exist there cannot be no other God
3. No other Gods exist

This is a deductive arguement btw the conclusion is a logical nessecity of the premise

there may be other logical fallacies mate but begging the question isnt one of them

 

[tarasan]

Tarasan, it is begging the question to say that you have already settled on a single faith to believe in. This is not new information. The question is how you exclude all the others to arrive at that faith. One of the reasons to reject Christianity is that the alternatives no longer seem less reasonable. The question is, is any religious faith more reasonable than another? Most of the world now rejects the existence of the Olympian gods. That religion used to be taken seriously, but it is now dead. Why?

too add to my point he did not say that I could not assume that my God existed, only how i came to that conclusion which i have done.

 

[Riverwolf]

So you are telling me that being made fun of for being bald is punishable by a bear mauling 42 children? Somewhat overboard don't you think?

Ever read Oedipus Rex?