Ex Christians

[Vadergirl123]

So...

No one but Christians are moral? Really?

Nope that's not what I said. We have laws that are based off the commandments in the Bible. Like you can't murder, steal, etc

 

[Falvlun]

I'm not trying to sound rude, but the Iraelites weren't perfect human beings. You'll always have people who will judge others regardless if God tells them not to. I bet most of the people wouldn't have been too compassionate or loving.

I am not criticizing the Israelites for being imperfect. I'm criticizing God for being imperfect.

 

[Vadergirl123]

it was formed from the imagination of people you do not know and cannot know.

That's your opinion that hell is there imagination, and you don't believe th apostle John was a real person?

 

[Vadergirl123]

I am not criticizing the Israelites for being imperfect. I'm criticizing God for being imperfect.

How was God imperfect by giving them laws and not forcing them to obey them. If you were God would you have forced the Israelites to obey the laws?

 

[tumbleweed41]

I totally see where you're comming form. I've sometimes found myself reading passages and then saying why didn't God do it this way instead. It would have been better and it would have made him look like a more fair God. The problem when we do that though is that we're trying to "be God" we're saying we know what's best and we know how it should be done. There's things about God we can't understand and we just have to accept that he knows best even if it doesn't make sense to us. I know it's hard to do though.

I'm sorry, but that seems to be simply an excuse for the behavior exhibited by that tribe at that time.

I can accept that the rules and laws of the Bible reflect the perceived needs and desires of that particular society.

However, I see nothing Divine in the majority of the rules and laws commanded in Genesis through Deuteronomy.

Have you read the entirety of the Levitical Laws?

 

[tumbleweed41]

How was God imperfect by giving them laws and not forcing them to obey them. If you were God would you have forced the Israelites to obey the laws?

I would have protected the innocent.

 

[Falvlun]

Nope that's not what I said. We have laws that are based off the commandments in the Bible. Like you can't murder, steal, etc

Nope, you claimed that "without the Bible we'd have no reason to even be moral."

So, if you didn't have the Bible you'd be immoral? You'd feel just fine going around murdering people?

How do you reconcile this belief with the fact that people who don't believe in the Bible (like atheists) or people who are not familiar with the Bible (like people born in Asian countries where Christianity is not a predominant thing) don't go around murdering people?

 

[Vadergirl123]

My morals are based on what I value.
I value what I value for whatever reasons. Evolution, culture, experience. These things developed my values.

From these values I determine what is right and what is wrong. You have values don't you? Isn't what you value determining what actions are right and wrong for you?

Even if you accept the authority of the Bible this shouldn't negate the fact that you have your own values that influence the decisions you make.

You can argue maybe my morals are not objective but it's silly to argue I have no reason for the ones I do have.

Everyone has different values. Do you want to live in a society that tells people to do what's right based on what each individual values or doesn't value?

 

[waitasec]

Without the Bible you'd have no reason to even have morals.

how do you account for thriving tribes that never knew about the bible?
or china for example...

 

[tumbleweed41]

Nope that's not what I said. We have laws that are based off the commandments in the Bible. Like you can't murder, steal, etc

Those laws have been in societies long before the Bible. And long before the Bible was introduced to non-Christian societies.

 

[waitasec]

Everyone has different values. Do you want to live in a society that tells people to do what's right based on what each individual values or doesn't value?

i do.

 

[waitasec]

That's your opinion that hell is there imagination, and you don't believe th apostle John was a real person?

sure he may have well been real, so what?
that still doesn't determine what he said is true.

 

[Falvlun]

How was God imperfect by giving them laws and not forcing them to obey them. If you were God would you have forced the Israelites to obey the laws?

We have two laws here:
1. Don't rape.
2. If you do rape, then you must pay the father some money and then marry the girl.

I'm not protesting the first rule. I am criticizing the second. You have defended the second by saying that this was due to the Israelite culture. Just like God prohibited rape (and eating shellfish) in the Israelite culture, he could have also prohibited treating raped women as impure and unwanted and chattel to be sold. In his omniscience, he could have realized that having a woman marry her rapist is exceedingly repulsive, terrifying, traumatizing, and sadistic. He could have told the Israelites that rape was not the fault of the woman, and that these women should be treated well, and should be given all the opportunities afforded to non-raped women, and that men should not look down upon them because of this horrific crime which was perpetrated on them.

But he didn't.

 

[Vadergirl123]

Nope, you claimed that "without the Bible we'd have no reason to even be moral."

If you take away the Bible you'll take away how God tells us to live, so then why shoudln't I live how I want to and for myself?

So, if you didn't have the Bible you'd be immoral? You'd feel just fine going around murdering people?

No I personally woldn't, but if someone did something wrong to me(let's say they ruined my car on purpose) why shouldn't I kill them? (please realize this is just an example. I'm not some insane killer)

How do you reconcile this belief with the fact that people who don't believe in the Bible (like atheists) or people who are not familiar with the Bible (like people born in Asian countries where Christianity is not a predominant thing) don't go around murdering people?

Well I can't say for sure(since I'm not one) but they live in countries, which have laws, and those laws are based on the Bible. Like don't steal, murder, etc and those societies have punishmnets.

 

[waitasec]

That's your opinion that hell is there imagination

just as it is your opinion there is a hell with out any verifiable evidence to back up there is one...

but lets take this a little further.
lets say there is a hell.

you are in heaven now and you find out your best friend or your child didn't make it, how is heaven going to be heaven knowing your loved one is in hell?

 

[Falvlun]

If you take away the Bible you'll take away how God tells us to live, so then why shoudln't I live how I want to and for myself?

That is precisely what atheists, and other non-Christians, find frightening about this form of morality.

Morality-- treating other people well-- is not a good thing in and of itself, according to this viewpoint. It is only good because God told you to do it.

I, for one, have compassion for my fellow humans and creatures on Earth. I do not want to cause unnecessary suffering. In addition to my own innate sense of morality, I also appreciate morality's benefit to society, in order for it to run smoothly and productively.

No I personally woldn't, but if someone did something wrong to me(let's say they ruined my car on purpose) why shouldn't I kill them? (please realize this is just an example. I'm not some insane killer)

Apparently I, and nearly every other atheist/non-Christian, are able to control ourselves.

A rather unemotional appeal would be "Well, I wouldn't want to be murdered, so therefore, I shouldn't murder other people. If everyone just went around murdering people, life would be much more frightening and unpredictable, and therefore, that course of action is undesirable."

In addition, as others have noted, humans have been conditioned, both through evolution and cultural teaching, so that murdering other people feels like a repulsive thing to do.

Well I can't say for sure(since I'm not one) but they live in countries, which have laws, and those laws are based on the Bible. Like don't steal, murder, etc and those societies have punishmnets.

I'm sorry, but this is completely incorrect.

 

[Reverend Richard]

So I've read a couple of posts about people claiming to be "ex christians" and I'm curious as to what they mean exactly. If you are an ex-christain were you in a relationship with Jesus Christ and decided you wanted the relationship to end? Was it that the belief of christiantity stopped making sense or something else entirely? Please let me know.

so...going back to the original question...

I do sometimes describe myself as an ex-Christian, or a former Christian. However, at times that's a label of convenience. It gives one a sense of where I once was spiritually, but reveals very little of what I currently believe.

I have not literally "thrown out the baby (Jesus) with the bath water." I believe Jesus had (has) much to teach us in terms of demonstrating love and compassion to our fellow human beings. What I do not trust about most "religious" teachings regarding Jesus is all of the denominational dogma that has been added/interpreted/literalized over the centuries. Starting with Judaism (and perhaps even Zoroastrianism), the Abrahamic religions of Christianity, Islam, and even Mormonism, have each sequentially hijacked the others' previous teachings, in an attempt to legitimize their own spin on what is considered to be the "true" religion.

If I am forced to describe my current theological views, I now describe my beliefs as primarily "New Thought". But if you ask me for specifics, I might reveal a hybrid mix of Christian, Hindu and even Buddhist beliefs.

 

[Sunstone]

Nope, you claimed that "without the Bible we'd have no reason to even be moral."

So, if you didn't have the Bible you'd be immoral? You'd feel just fine going around murdering people?

How do you reconcile this belief with the fact that people who don't believe in the Bible (like atheists) or people who are not familiar with the Bible (like people born in Asian countries where Christianity is not a predominant thing) don't go around murdering people?

Short, to the point, and incisive! But it's just not fair that a girl should write a post that's better than most of my own.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Hmm it is terrible don't get me wrong.(I'm not trying to say I approve people getting raped) but wouldn't it have been worse for the girl if she'd been raped and then stayed single. Wouldn't everyone have treated her as an outcast?

Apologetics don't go very far with me.

Rape is a crime, and should be treated as such. We don't hear how a burglar is forced to work as an accountant for the man he robbed from, do we?

Others have answered your question, too, and perhaps better than I could at this point. To be honest, I'm rather shocked right now.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Regarding the former reason, whatever "pastor" is teaching flock that God is going to make all people's problems go away needs to be taken out to the back of his church and shot between the eyes. I can't count all the troubles I've had as a follower of Jesus. The promise that we believe is that God SUSTAINS us through the bad times, not makes them disappear

Oh, I'm not comparing and contrasting life trials. We all have our mountains to climb.

If I were to continue relying on a doctrine that condemned me for my orientation and my thoughts and feelings toward other women, as I'd stated, I wouldn't be where I am now. I'm much happier knowing that I'm not sick and twisted, but that my orientation is just fine, thank you.

Talk about a huge monkey off my back.