Exodus Archeology Evidence

[oldbadger]

I'm in a discussion with you @oldbadger in a middle of it too.

Do you know there's 13 months (not every year)

OK...... But questions about the Exodus could best be asked after reading Exodus in the bible, and Jews can explain why they celebrate the Passover at a spring full moon.

13 months? Of course I know, I'm paid 13 times a year, and have two moon/tide clocks in my home. A tidal clock sits beside my standard clock on the kitchen wall. I used to do certain jobs around the tide.....the lunar cycle.

 

[oldbadger]

@oldbadger what is reed in areas close to sea that you claim reedsea

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala shown reed means grass, do you @oldbadger have reed as grass too

Have you ever seen that some marshes look like a sea of reeds, tall reeds?
Papyrus was very common in marshes around the Red Sea and I have read that some translators think that the word Red in the bible should really be Reed.

 

[oldbadger]

@oldbadger where are you, I want to write to the @oldbadger that we were already in the middle of discussion

had you forgotten already what you thank me for when I shown you that map, we were already in a middle of discussion

I look up your area of reedsea did I get that right?

This is the thread we are already in the middle of discussion

I'll show again is this yellow area you were writing about (we're in a middle of discussion)

Yellow that what your writing about @oldbadger am I correct?

View attachment 97020

This is what your talking about @oldbadger because we are in a middle of discussion

What is a bitter lake, what does this lake taste is it bitter taste?

I'm looking this area that you @oldbadger explained

View attachment 97021

I asked in a middle of discusion does the water taste bitter or not?

It is middle of a discussion that was already taking place, and you even thank me for taking the time to show map

This is the @oldbadger I was writing to, the @oldbadger and I in a middle of discussion

we were in the middle, an actual middle of an already discussion

I don't know what the water there tastes like, I'm guessing that it may possibly be brine, between fresh and salt water.
Thousands of years ago (ice age) sea levels were lower than today, so maybe the northern Red Sea was a marshes back then.

 

[oldbadger]

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala your praise was shut down quickly which I'm extremely sad now

I was in a middle of a discussion with @oldbadger and @oldbadger acts as if it never happened the discussion and I'm so angry and sad and yet I was looking so forward to this discussion

I was in the middle of exploring reeds, as reeds is grass and how much reeds are in what different types of water, but not no more, because @oldbadger acts as if this discussion never happened when it was happening here and in the middle of it too

Example: @oldbadger claims bitter lakes where these reeds were and claims called reedsea (that looks like in a middle of a discussion)

I was thinking reeds are grass and how much reeds, example to compare that river yet there's a drought, that you @Bharat Jhunjhunwala explained, remember there's a drought though, compared to bitter lake that @oldbadger claims and there's water happening due to full moon (in a middle of a discussion that's happening in the middle of it, I'm in action in a middle of a discussion)

exploring reed that's also that word suph is it spelled, Yam suph, or Yam suf

oh in a middle of a discussion @oldbadger have you ever heard of word Yam suph or Yam suf

suf or suph is reed

I'm in a middle of discussion with you @oldbadger extremely so that you even thank me for showing map

This is called in a middle of a discussion that is in action

Now you are hounding me with questions. At the point where I came to believe that you really do need to read Exodus for yourself before further research you start flooding me with questions.

 

[oldbadger]

@oldbadger

(1) It felt like I was in a middle of conversation with you. @oldbadger

(2) It felt like you @oldbadger wanted me to go to a Judaism thread to discuss.

(3) It felt like you @oldbadger had forgotten that I was in the middle of discussion.

(4) it felt like I lost something as if I did something wrong with in a discussion and I couldn't understand what I did wrong?

River Sea, you didn't do anything wrong, but you showed that you don't know what the basics of Exodus story is, so to read Exodus and ask basic questions with Jews should help you very much ...before you seek answers from other faiths, religions, agnostics and atheists....I'm a Deist who has been interested in the Exodus and I think it really did happen but my explanation is strictly 'temporal'.

Best to start with Judaism.

Because of that I don't think this is a middle, but a definite long pause.

 

[River Sea]

What does Moses’ emotion have anything to do with archaeological evidence?

Archaeology only deal with physical evidence, objects of some kinds (eg tools, weapons, pottery, minted coins, as well as inscribed mediums, like manuscripts, tablets, scrolls, etc, or physical structures like buildings or groups of structures, like those in villages, towns or cities.

Archaeology doesn’t deal with psychology, so these questions are irrelevant.

@gnostic you are so correct. To show all the archeology. This is an Exodus Archeology evidence thread.

Showing two areas of a map further down my post. I'll show again.

The yellow from @oldbadger
The blue from @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

both sides from @oldbadger and @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Yellow from @oldbadger showing bitter lakes and me asking is this correct area from @oldbadger view: while also showing in blue how @Bharat Jhunjhunwala researching never reached the yellow area.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala blue from east to west. Never reaches that yellow area that @oldbadger was explaining about. I taken the time to show this and see if I understood correctly.

@Bharat Jhunjhunwala blue from east to west. Never reaches that yellow area that @oldbadger was explaining about. I taken the time to show this and see if I understood correctly.

How would @oldbadger and @Bharat Jhunjhunwala comprehend each other and show their archeology in this thread, how?

 

[oldbadger]

@gnostic you are so correct. To show all the archeology. This is an Exodus Archeology evidence thread.

As far as the Israelite's Exodus, I don't think that there is much if any archeological evidence.

Showing two areas of a map further down my post. I'll show again.

The yellow from @oldbadger
The blue from @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

both sides from @oldbadger and @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Yellow from @oldbadger showing bitter lakes and me asking is this correct area from @oldbadger view: while also showing in blue how @Bharat Jhunjhunwala researching never reached the yellow area.

The Israelites were slaves in Egypt, so any route of their journey to freedom has to start in Egypt. Bharat's route must be about another people, possibly Aryans???

 

[River Sea]

OK...... But questions about the Exodus could best be asked after reading Exodus in the bible, and Jews can explain why they celebrate the Passover at a spring full moon.

13 months? Of course I know, I'm paid 13 times a year, and have two moon/tide clocks in my home. A tidal clock sits beside my standard clock on the kitchen wall. I used to do certain jobs around the tide.....the lunar cycle.

@oldbadger about 13 months

the Hebrews need to adjust their calendar with a leap year Add a 13th month (2nd Adar) 7 times in 19 years

13 month (2nd Adar) 7 times in 19 years

Hebrews combine solar and lunar calendars to create the Lunisolar calendar (this allows them to observe Passover in the spring and Sukkot in the autumn).

Passover spring. Sukkot autumn.

Sukkot in autumn is a harvest festival in the fall season, as a reminder of a harvest Hebrews brought with them when Exodus. So would it be fall season when the Exodus happened?

 

[oldbadger]

@oldbadger about 13 months


13 month (2nd Adar) 7 times in 19 years



Passover spring. Sukkot autumn.

Sukkot in autumn is a harvest festival in the fall season, as a reminder of a harvest Hebrews brought with them when Exodus. So would it be fall season when the Exodus happened?

As far as I know the priests knew the spring time from autumn time.

They knew the solstices, and so the spring full moon was always the same numb er of weeks from winter or summer solstice.

And the Israelites would have known exactly what time the tide would fall, be at low tide, flood and high tide on the full moon, with adjustment if there had been any storm to cause a surge and or tidal bore.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

River Sea, you didn't do anything wrong, but you showed that you don't know what the basics of Exodus story is, so to read Exodus and ask basic questions with Jews should help you very much ...before you seek answers from other faiths, religions, agnostics and atheists....I'm a Deist who has been interested in the Exodus and I think it really did happen but my explanation is strictly 'temporal'.

Best to start with Judaism.

Because of that I don't think this is a middle, but a definite long pause.

There are four events of the Exodus that cannot be explained in the West Asian context – 1. The river becoming blood.

2. The river parting.

3. A volcanic eruption.

4. Second Yam Suph.

These four items get explained in the exodus from the Indus Valley. The river becoming blood is due to the shift of the Hakra river from the west to east. As a result, the western arm of the river became a series of stagnant pools and this is what is meant by blood. Number two, the parting of the river could be due to eruption of a mud volcano upstream of the point of crossing of the Indus River. Number three the volcano would be the Taftan volcano in southeast Iran. Number four the second Yam Suph would be the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. So, the basic narrative of the Exodus makes sense in the Indus Valley and not from and not from Egypt.

 

[oldbadger]

There are four events of the Exodus that cannot be explained in the West Asian context –

Hello Bharat.
All these incidents probably did happen exactly as you say, and where you have indicated, but maybe they happened quite separately to the Exodus account.

1. The river becoming blood.

I watched a television documentary some years ago that explained this exact condition (a natural event) happening in the Nile in present times.

2. The river parting.

The sea-channels everywhere part every day and sometimes extremely so. When I was a kid I knew places where I could wade across wide sea channels at very low spring tides, and where these same channels flooded to twenty-feet higher and a mile wide only six hours later.
The channels of the reed sea would do exactly the same thing and in a storm wind could rise massively higher.

On 28th January 1978 the sea rose up so high that it flooded my street and local neighbourhood and the plough pub (higher up still) became an island. All in six hours! .

3. A volcanic eruption.

I don't know much about tectonics around the Red Sea .....that's worth looking in to. A tsunami racing up that narrow sea would be truly terrifying and murderous event.

4. Second Yam Suph.

I don't know what that is.

These four items get explained in the exodus from the Indus Valley. The river becoming blood is due to the shift of the Hakra river from the west to east. As a result, the western arm of the river became a series of stagnant pools and this is what is meant by blood. Number two, the parting of the river could be due to eruption of a mud volcano upstream of the point of crossing of the Indus River. Number three the volcano would be the Taftan volcano in southeast Iran. Number four the second Yam Suph would be the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.

I have no doubt that the above could have occured, but not connected to Exodus which happened far away.

So, the basic narrative of the Exodus makes sense in the Indus Valley and not from and not from Egypt.

History has a method of repeating itself.
You might consider telling us all about the Indus valley incident in a separate thread, as something that happened quite separately, maybe?

 

[GoodAttention]

@GoodAttention what is reed in Tamil?

Reed I believe has two words, the first one the comes up on the dictionary.

நாணல்​

nāṇal n. 1. Kaus, a large and coarse grass. 1. sh., Saccharum spontaneum புல் வகை 2. Penreed-grass, Saccharum arundinaceum; எழுத உதவும் நாணற்புல் வகை 3.Bulrush. See கோரை 4. Lalong-grass, s. sh.,Imperata arundinacea; தருப்பைவகை. (L.)


The pronounciation is naannil, which is interesting because where does the name Nile come from??

What did the Ancient Egyptians call the Nile? Here is one of the Tamil words for river, which also has other meanings.

ஆறு​

āṟu s.a river நதி; 2. a way, road வழி; 3. morality, virtue அறம்; 4. the manner of doing a thing, விதம். 5. result, பயன்

ஆறுகடக்க, to cross a river.
ஆறுகாட்டி, a guide.
ஆற்றங்கரை, the bank of a river.
ஆற்றுக்கால், a streamlet, a small channel, for conveying water to the fields.

இந்த​

inta demonstr. adj. இ³. This. இந்தநாடு (நன். 267, உரை).

Inta aru, or intaru if combined could be translated to "this river", or loosely to "the river".

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Hello Bharat.
All these incidents probably did happen exactly as you say, and where you have indicated, but maybe they happened quite separately to the Exodus account.

I watched a television documentary some years ago that explained this exact condition (a natural event) happening in the Nile in present times.

The sea-channels everywhere part every day and sometimes extremely so. When I was a kid I knew places where I could wade across wide sea channels at very low spring tides, and where these same channels flooded to twenty-feet higher and a mile wide only six hours later.
The channels of the reed sea would do exactly the same thing and in a storm wind could rise massively higher.

On 28th January 1978 the sea rose up so high that it flooded my street and local neighbourhood and the plough pub (higher up still) became an island. All in six hours! .

I don't know much about tectonics around the Red Sea .....that's worth looking in to. A tsunami racing up that narrow sea would be truly terrifying and murderous event.

I don't know what that is.

I have no doubt that the above could have occured, but not connected to Exodus which happened far away.

History has a method of repeating itself.
You might consider telling us all about the Indus valley incident in a separate thread, as something that happened quite separately, maybe?

Whether these were separate incidents or the biblical Exodus can be assessed by looking at the time, genealogy, and geography. If the time is the same as 1500 BCE. If the genealogy is the same that is descended from Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses, the similar descent from Swayambhu Manu to Vaivasvata Manu to Ram to Krishna, then we must assume that this was the same event.

 

[oldbadger]

Whether these were separate incidents or the biblical Exodus can be assessed by looking at the time, genealogy, and geography. If the time is the same as 1500 BCE. If the genealogy is the same that is descended from Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses, the similar descent from Swayambhu Manu to Vaivasvata Manu to Ram to Krishna, then we must assume that this was the same event.

Hello Bharat.
Some theological researchers do indeed think that a date of circa 1500 BCE is possible for the Exodus, but others place that date much later.
Will we ever know?

 

[River Sea]

Reed I believe has two words, the first one the comes up on the dictionary.

நாணல்​

nāṇal n. 1. Kaus, a large and coarse grass. 1. sh., Saccharum spontaneum புல் வகை 2. Penreed-grass, Saccharum arundinaceum; எழுத உதவும் நாணற்புல் வகை 3.Bulrush. See கோரை 4. Lalong-grass, s. sh.,Imperata arundinacea; தருப்பைவகை. (L.)


The pronounciation is naannil, which is interesting because where does the name Nile come from??

What did the Ancient Egyptians call the Nile? Here is one of the Tamil words for river, which also has other meanings.

ஆறு​

āṟu s.a river நதி; 2. a way, road வழி; 3. morality, virtue அறம்; 4. the manner of doing a thing, விதம். 5. result, பயன்

ஆறுகடக்க, to cross a river.
ஆறுகாட்டி, a guide.
ஆற்றங்கரை, the bank of a river.
ஆற்றுக்கால், a streamlet, a small channel, for conveying water to the fields.

இந்த​

inta demonstr. adj. இ³. This. இந்தநாடு (நன். 267, உரை).

Inta aru, or intaru if combined could be translated to "this river", or loosely to "the river".

My journey in my post. That led to a question: What are the reasons for meaning direction in written language from either right to left or left to right?

@GoodAttention
You wrote: Inta aru, or intaru if combined could be translated to "this river", or loosely to "the river".

Let me see if I comprehend you @GoodAttention

You @GoodAttention are researching the trading Ancient Egypt and Ancient India and researching the languages of Tamil and Proto-Dravidian

My question: How did they trade when the river changed directions? How did they trade with different languages?

Exploring words online shows how people comprehend Proto-Dravidian and also ask what the meaning is about directions in written language.

I looked online: I don't know the direction with Egyptian:

What language did ancient Egypt speak?

Egyptian

Ancient Egyptians spoke Egyptian – a dead language, just like Latin (modern Egyptians speak Arabic). The Egyptian language had a lifespan of more than four thousand years – the longest continuously attested language in the world!

My thoughts: Look at that photo above: how that's in a row. Look how there's a system.

Then look at quote below showing not in a row without system.
What happens if find Epigraphy not in a row? This caused me to question because where is the system? No left to right or right to left, how come?

Please see quote and expand to see photo that shows random Epigraphy that has no system. Then see blow quote.

What would that mean if Epigraphy isn't in a row?

"You are Cursed by the God YHW:" an early Hebrew inscription from Mt. Ebal

PS Please note that during the publication process (post-proofreading) the orientation of the Hebrew letters – integrated in English sentences – on p. 17, shifted to L > R. We shall try to get this solved asap. Thank you for your kind

www.academia.edu

Fig. 5 Object structure. Drawings by Gershon Galil
Screenshot

Look at this below about Proto-Dravidian

There are thus eight types of roots in Proto-Dravidian that can be described in terms of V (vowel) and C (consonant) combinations: V1, C1V1, V1C2, C1V1C2, V:1, C1V:1, V:1C2, C1V:1C2 (subscript numbers indicate the position in a root; V represents a short vowel, while V: is a long vowel).

Dravidian languages - Phonology, Grammar, Scripts | Britannica

Dravidian languages - Phonology, Grammar, Scripts: The Dravidian languages belong to a single family—including the distant relative Brahui. Examples that are prefixed with asterisks have been reconstructed following the time-tested procedures of comparative linguistics. Proto-Dravidian...

www.britannica.com

Also this I saw online.

Are dravidians of African origin?

Genetic evidence suggests that Dravidian peoples originally migrated to India from the Horn of Africa. Genetic evidence also suggests that around 5000 years ago, farmers from the Fertile Crescent, in what is now Iran, migrated to India and likely mixed with existing Dravidian communities.

Dravidian People | History, Language & Ethnic Groups - Study.com​

To summarize this post

I notice a direction system. Example Hebrews from right to left. What would I do if I saw modern Hebrew not in a row and randomly all over the place? Would I ask about this? (I understand I didn't show any Hebrew in this post.) Sanskrit and Tamil I think is opposite direction then Hebrew, how come?

So question: in what direction is the Tamil language written, and how did the Hebrew language become from right to left? If the Tamil direction system is from left to right, how come? What does that mean left to right or right to left? Is there a meaning with these directions?

If written language is random, where's the system?

Who was prefect to caused what direction, and how did this affect trading?

 

[River Sea]

@GoodAttention I'm not claiming what I find online is correct. Just sharing from looking online.

This is from Kawin-Stark

I read somewhere that ancient Egyptians spoke Tamil. Is it true?

Kawin Stark's answer: Just a comparison between few Egyptian words and Dravidian words: 1. Nile River - Neelu (Telugu) : Water 2. Nile River - Nilam (Tamil) : Land 3. Nile River - Neelam (Tamil) : Water 4. Aten : Sun Disk - Aathan (Tamil) : Sun 5. Pyramid - Perum (Tamil) : Big + Idu (Tamil) : Bu...

www.quora.com

Just a comparison between few Egyptian words and Dravidian words:

1. Nile River - Neelu (Telugu) : Water
2. Nile River - Nilam (Tamil) : Land
3. Nile River - Neelam (Tamil) : Water
4. Aten : Sun Disk - Aathan (Tamil) : Sun
5. Pyramid - Perum (Tamil) : Big + Idu (Tamil) : Burial Site

Comparison between few names:

1. Paramesu, Ramesses - Parameshwaran, Ramesh (Still these names are used in Tamil)
2. Aten, Akenaten - Aathan, Uthirathan (Tamil names which were used during Sangam period)

My question is: is there any perum in Ancient India that was used to help water the land? Perum (Tamil) means Pyramid; however, it explains Burial Site, but why Burial? What about the Pyramids used to help water the land?

I'll write my question on Exodus:

I understand Exodus means leaving, so I question why 1500 BCE Exodus was more knowing than others eras when about leaving or Exodus then.

1500 BCE seems to be more of an importance of Exodus compared to other times. Why do you think this is? Is it due to the (of what abilities) that took place of communication that caused this?

If it's Abraham and the countries that pay some of their taxes to Abraham's religions, did this cause the importance of knowing of the Exodus during 1500 BCE?

Because there's other times of Exodus too (meaning leaving), and yet no country is paying some of their taxes to that, how come?

Or are there taxes being paid for other Exodus (meaning leaving) in another era, yet how important then is that Exodus compared to the Exodus in 1500 BCE?

Another thought, and this is to @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

What would happen to the countries that paid some of their taxes to the Abrahamic religions if they realized the Exodus happened in the Indus Valley, Ancient India? Would this affect future taxes from these countries? Would the Abrahamic religions get less money?

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Hello Bharat.
Some theological researchers do indeed think that a date of circa 1500 BCE is possible for the Exodus, but others place that date much later.
Will we ever know?

I have seen the book ‘Five Views of the Exodus’. It tells of one view as 15th century BCE and others between 12th and 13th century BCE. However, the 15th century BCE is challenged only because there is a lack of archaeological evidence in Egypt. Once we consider the exodus to have taken place from the Indus Valley, the archaeological evidence at 1500 BCE is lying all around. Let us remember that the Indus Valley collapsed around 1500 BCE, and that led to the people migrating to various directions, among which were the Jews who left India for Israel.

 

[oldbadger]

I have seen the book ‘Five Views of the Exodus’. It tells of one view as 15th century BCE and others between 12th and 13th century BCE. However, the 15th century BCE is challenged only because there is a lack of archaeological evidence in Egypt. Once we consider the exodus to have taken place from the Indus Valley, the archaeological evidence at 1500 BCE is lying all around. Let us remember that the Indus Valley collapsed around 1500 BCE, and that led to the people migrating to various directions, among which were the Jews who left India for Israel.

Is this what I have heard of as the 'Aryan' migrations, Bharat?
You mention the migration of the Jews, do you in fact mean the migration of the Israelites? I understand that there were 12 tribes within the Israelite nation but I'm not sure which tribes (apart from the Levites and Benjaminites) which eventually became 'the Jews' ??

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Is this what I have heard of as the 'Aryan' migrations, Bharat?
You mention the migration of the Jews, do you in fact mean the migration of the Israelites? I understand that there were 12 tribes within the Israelite nation but I'm not sure which tribes (apart from the Levites and Benjaminites) which eventually became 'the Jews' ??

This is not an Aryan invasion. On the contrary, it is the 'Out of India' theory. Aryan invasion holds that some Aryans from Central Asia came to India. In contrast, I am suggesting that some people from India migrated westward. So, this is the 'Out of India' theory.
Yes, I am mentioning the migration of the Israelites. I think that 12 tribes are metaphors. In the Hindu astrological chart, there are 12 houses. So, I am saying that 12 tribes means all the tribes and all the people.

 

[oldbadger]

This is not an Aryan invasion. On the contrary, it is the 'Out of India' theory. Aryan invasion holds that some Aryans from Central Asia came to India. In contrast, I am suggesting that some people from India migrated westward. So, this is the 'Out of India' theory.
Yes, I am mentioning the migration of the Israelites. I think that 12 tribes are metaphors. In the Hindu astrological chart, there are 12 houses. So, I am saying that 12 tribes means all the tribes and all the people.

OK....Bharat, I cannot be against your theory or for it. It's beyond my ken, Bharat..
But I have heard and read about the 'out of Egypt' exodus all my life and that's probably why I tend to feel ok with it.

Does your ancient story tell about being chased by masters, and their deaths? Does it mention food from heaven such as manna? And how about the laws given to the new nation just after the escape?