Experiencing God

[Sonofason]

It's really funny to me. Why is it that atheists always assume that everyone around them is a liar?

Could it be a result of some former abuse?

"The capacity to trust refers to our ability to trust, and it’s the thing most severely damaged by abuse. Kids trust easily, but when we’re abused, that trust is constantly thrown back in our faces. We find ourselves pulling back on our trust more and more, expecting to be hurt. We want to trust, but the hurt we so often feel when we do eventually overrides that desire, and we’ve lost something valuable in building healthy relationships."
Mistrust--Emotional Abuse Answers

I recommend that all atheists read this article.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I will tell you that you are either telling the truth, or you are a liar.

So you tell me which it is, and I will believe you.

There's no room in your worldview for someone who's honestly mistaken?

 

[Sonofason]

If I were a liar, I would lie now. Which means my answer would be the same regardless of whether I am a liar or speaking the truth.

So...
Of course it is the truth!

Unless I am deluded, obviously. But I would seriously take offense if you thought so.

Oh no, I do not believe you are deluded.

This is what I believe. I believe that you have trust issues, like all atheists, and maybe for good cause. I don't know. You might not know the cause of it either. But I know that this story is not true, and that it is a constructed hypothetical to test me. This I can tell you about me. If you will tell me the truth, I'll know it. And if you tell me a lie, I'll know it.

 

[Sonofason]

There's no room in your worldview for someone who's honestly mistaken?

No it doesn't matter to me if someone is honestly mistaken. If they believe what they claim, and if the claim is sufficiently compelling for me to search into it further, I will.

 

[Koldo]

Now a tooth brush can be considered to be quite tangible.

Here is a thought experiment:

Imagine a tooth brush that is not tangible. It does exist though.
I claim that I am brushing your teeth right now with it. ( You can assume we are standing next to each other )
How would you be able to tell whether I am indeed brushing your teeth with it?

 

[Koldo]

Oh no, I do not believe you are deluded.

This is what I believe. I believe that you have trust issues, like all atheists, and maybe for good cause. I don't know. You might not know the cause of it either. But I know that this story is not true, and that it is a constructed hypothetical to test me. This I can tell you about me. If you will tell me the truth, I'll know it. if you tell me a lie, I'll know it.

Trust issues? How so?
I wasn't trying to test you. I was explaining to you how these god experiences look like from a different perspective.

 

[Koldo]

No it doesn't matter to me if someone is honestly mistaken. If they believe what they claim, and if the claim is sufficiently compelling for me to search into it further, I will.

And...? Can't you eventually conclude that the person is honestly mistaken?

 

[Midnight Rain]

It's really funny to me. Why is it that atheists always assume that everyone around them is a liar?

Could it be a result of some former abuse?

"The capacity to trust refers to our ability to trust, and it’s the thing most severely damaged by abuse. Kids trust easily, but when we’re abused, that trust is constantly thrown back in our faces. We find ourselves pulling back on our trust more and more, expecting to be hurt. We want to trust, but the hurt we so often feel when we do eventually overrides that desire, and we’ve lost something valuable in building healthy relationships."
Mistrust--Emotional Abuse Answers

I recommend that all atheists read this article.

Skepticism is natural. Mistrust is just skepticism taken personally. The opposite would be gullibility. Finding the medium in between is hard to get to and it might be different for each individual and situation.

But we are surrounded by liars. That is why finding the truth is so hard.

 

[Cephus]

Well, I suppose that if a theist's beliefs can be based on faith, then an atheist's beliefs can also be based on faith. And, evidence in science and the experiencing of God are really not necessary for any belief that is based on faith.

Only if one's concept of "faith" is so wide and vague as to be meaningless. If everything is just faith then faith has no meaning. Unfortunately, there are a lot of theists who try to use the word "faith" in the broadest conceivable sense so they can pretend everyone has faith of some sort, therefore nobody can possibly criticize their own particular brand of blind faith.

 

[Sonofason]

Here is a thought experiment:

Imagine a tooth brush that is not tangible. It does exist though.
I claim that I am brushing your teeth right now with it. ( You can assume we are standing next to each other )
How would you be able to tell whether I am indeed brushing your teeth with it?

Apparently, you have a much greater imagination than I do. But I can say this. Does it really matter that I imagine a tooth brush that is not tangible? I did once have a toothbrush that is certainly no longer tangible, and I seriously doubt that you have the capability to brush my teeth with it. No one knows where that tooth brush is now.

Nevertheless, if you could have in your possession an intangible toothbrush, I doubt that I could tell whether or not you were brushing my teeth with it.

 

[Sonofason]

Skepticism is natural. Mistrust is just skepticism taken personally. The opposite would be gullibility. Finding the medium in between is hard to get to and it might be different for each individual and situation.

But we are surrounded by liars. That is why finding the truth is so hard.

Well, I personally am doing all I can do to not be an obstacle to the truth. If I say I have experienced God, then there are only two possibilities. Either I have experienced God, or I have been deceived by my own mind into believing that I have experienced God. While the second is a very real possibility, it is highly unlikely that my experiences of God have been delusions. My experience of what I perceive to be God is in full compliance with what Jesus promised to those who love and obey him.

Jesus said,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
(John 14:15-17)

And this is exactly what I see in the world.

I see believers who experience God in strikingly similar ways that I experience God, and I see non-believers not receiving anything similar to what I and other believers experience.

Jesus kept his promise to me, and that is my perception, however flawed it may be.

 

[Sonofason]

Only if one's concept of "faith" is so wide and vague as to be meaningless. If everything is just faith then faith has no meaning. Unfortunately, there are a lot of theists who try to use the word "faith" in the broadest conceivable sense so they can pretend everyone has faith of some sort, therefore nobody can possibly criticize their own particular brand of blind faith.

Do you believe that you exist?

And...? Can't you eventually conclude that the person is honestly mistaken?

I am 100% certain about this. You can never conclude with 100% certainty that I have not experienced God as I believe that I have. So the answer is, sometimes no.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Well, I personally am doing all I can do to not be an obstacle to the truth. If I say I have experienced God, then there are only two possibilities. Either I have experienced God, or I have been deceived by my own mind into believing that I have experienced God. While the second is a very real possibility, it is highly unlikely that my experiences of God have been delusions. My experience of what I perceive to be God is in full compliance with what Jesus promised to those who love and obey him.

Jesus said,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
(John 14:15-17)

And this is exactly what I see in the world.

I see believers who experience God in strikingly similar ways that I experience God, and I see non-believers not receiving anything similar to what I and other believers experience.

Jesus kept his promise to me, and that is my perception, however flawed it may be.

I have similarly experienced "god" before. However in my experiences it has not matched up to Christianity. However I have found it matches much of the nature oriented pagan religions. In my belief we can all experience god but it is a reflective experience that is different for each one of us. If you were looking for the Christian god then perhaps that is why you felt the Christian god. Many look for Allah and some may find Allah. That doesn't make their exclusive personal revelation the "truth".

I think the interpretations of these revelations get warped and many hold them to the standard of "truth" or "absolute" when they are subjective.

Even for an atheist I find it very hard to believe they have never experienced something akin to god. However they may not recognize it as god and that would be their subjective opinion. And if it is just a delusion then just as well but instinctively I feel that it is not.

 

[Cephus]

Do you believe that you exist?

Based on the best evidence we have available, yes. Is that a position of absolute certainty? No. It is a position I would reconsider as we learned more? Yes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, I personally am doing all I can do to not be an obstacle to the truth. If I say I have experienced God, then there are only two possibilities. Either I have experienced God, or I have been deceived by my own mind into believing that I have experienced God. While the second is a very real possibility, it is highly unlikely that my experiences of God have been delusions. My experience of what I perceive to be God is in full compliance with what Jesus promised to those who love and obey him.

Jesus said,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
(John 14:15-17)

And this is exactly what I see in the world.

I see believers who experience God in strikingly similar ways that I experience God, and I see non-believers not receiving anything similar to what I and other believers experience.

And how do you experience God, exactly? What is it that you see believers receiving but non-believers not receiving?

BTW: are you counting people who believe in a god other than yours as "believers" or "non-believers"?

 

[Sonofason]

I have similarly experienced "god" before. However in my experiences it has not matched up to Christianity. However I have found it matches much of the nature oriented pagan religions. In my belief we can all experience god but it is a reflective experience that is different for each one of us. If you were looking for the Christian god then perhaps that is why you felt the Christian god. Many look for Allah and some may find Allah. That doesn't make their exclusive personal revelation the "truth".

I think the interpretations of these revelations get warped and many hold them to the standard of "truth" or "absolute" when they are subjective.

Even for an atheist I find it very hard to believe they have never experienced something akin to god. However they may not recognize it as god and that would be their subjective opinion. And if it is just a delusion then just as well but instinctively I feel that it is not.

I tend to agree with you. I have some issues trying to draw boundaries between various religions, but boundaries apparently do exist. Religions are often shaded by culture and politics, and perhaps oftentimes overly so. I'm sure people of varying faiths and religions can and do experience God. There is not a Christian God, and another Islamic God, and yet another Hindu God. There is only One God. Of this I'm quite sure. And depending on where a particular culture is morally and socially will have an affect on how individuals experience God. Of course every experience of God is subjective. Every experience anyone has ever had is subjective.

You do know that Allah is not a proper name of some god, It is the Arabic word for God. Muslims and Christians worship the same God in a sense. In saying "in a sense", I mean to say, if a Muslim and a Christian both actually do experience a god, they are both actually experiencing the same God. Thus I would suggest that we should be more leery of the personal revelations that are contradictory between religions, and rely more heavily on shared revelations.

I have studied Eastern Religions and I see lots of truth in them. I have studied Islam to some extent, and I see lots of truth in it. I personally have most connected with Christianity. If Christianity turns out to not be the best representation of the nature and character of God, I'm quite confident that I'll be okay. You see, I don't need to read another word about God. I know that God exists, and I experience Him often. I am not religious. But I found God in Christianity, or He found me, however it was. Nevertheless, I am most comforted in my knowledge and experience of God.

 

[Sonofason]

And how do you experience God, exactly? What is it that you see believers receiving but non-believers not receiving?

BTW: are you counting people who believe in a god other than yours as "believers" or "non-believers"?

Sorry, this is where it gets personal. I won't tell you my experiences of God. But I will say this, because of my experiences of God, I know that God knows me, and that is most comforting to me.

Read what Jesus said. Go online, learn about the Holy Spirit. Read books that give glory to God as opposed to articles attempting to tear Him down. Love and obey God, and you will know the experience that you are missing.

BTW there is only one God. And everyone misperceives Him differently.

 

[Sonofason]

Based on the best evidence we have available, yes. Is that a position of absolute certainty? No. It is a position I would reconsider as we learned more? Yes.

And that's a fair answer.

 

[Koldo]

Apparently, you have a much greater imagination than I do. But I can say this. Does it really matter that I imagine a tooth brush that is not tangible? I did once have a toothbrush that is certainly no longer tangible, and I seriously doubt that you have the capability to brush my teeth with it. No one knows where that tooth brush is now.

Nevertheless, if you could have in your possession an intangible toothbrush, I doubt that I could tell whether or not you were brushing my teeth with it.

If you doubt you would be able to tell whether you were experiencing having your teeth brushed with the intangible toothbrush, how come you are able to tell that you have experienced something else that is also intangible?

 

[Midnight Rain]

I tend to agree with you. I have some issues trying to draw boundaries between various religions, but boundaries apparently do exist. Religions are often shaded by culture and politics, and perhaps oftentimes overly so. I'm sure people of varying faiths and religions can and do experience God. There is not a Christian God, and another Islamic God, and yet another Hindu God. There is only One God. Of this I'm quite sure. And depending on where a particular culture is morally and socially will have an affect on how individuals experience God. Of course every experience of God is subjective. Every experience anyone has ever had is subjective.

You do know that Allah is not a proper name of some god, It is the Arabic word for God. Muslims and Christians worship the same God in a sense. In saying "in a sense", I mean to say, if a Muslim and a Christian both actually do experience a god, they are both actually experiencing the same God. Thus I would suggest that we should be more leery of the personal revelations that are contradictory between religions, and rely more heavily on shared revelations.

I have studied Eastern Religions and I see lots of truth in them. I have studied Islam to some extent, and I see lots of truth in it. I personally have most connected with Christianity. If Christianity turns out to not be the best representation of the nature and character of God, I'm quite confident that I'll be okay. You see, I don't need to read another word about God. I know that God exists, and I experience Him often. I am not religious. But I found God in Christianity, or He found me, however it was. Nevertheless, I am most comforted in my knowledge and experience of God.

If we take what all religion's say and cut out all that is contradictory then I don't think that even atheists would object to having it.