Experiencing God

[Sonofason]

How does that work when it comes down to god though?
Butterflies can be described in ways that would relate to our ( five ) senses.

As I just explained to you in my previous response to you, it is my belief that we have more than 5 senses. Don't ask me what they are. Apparently, we haven't discovered them yet. But we employ them all the time. You don't need to know that you have the ability to sense something in order to sense it. You don't need to know that you have eyes in order to see with your eyes.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Perhaps, I don't know. I personally am not willing to remove one word from the Bible, but I will always welcome additional knowledge that helps me to understand the scriptures better.

Why?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

If God is everywhere at all times then He is both on the outside and on the inside of each and every one of us.

OK, but if God is "inside", how do you it's not just another part of your own mind or personality, or unconscious, or whatever?

 

[Midnight Rain]

OK, but if God is "inside", how do you it's not just another part of your own mind or personality, or unconscious, or whatever?

The easiest answer is that god is the "whole" and we are the "part". The idea that there is some "god" out there and then we have "us" as separate beings would be an illusion. Just as it is an illusion that we are separate beings as well.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The easiest answer is that god is the "whole" and we are the "part".

So this means we are experiencing part of ourselves, and assume the presence of God from that experience?

 

[Midnight Rain]

So this means we are experiencing part of ourselves, and assume the presence of God from that experience?

Experiencing is a revelation. Nothing more. What you take from it is reflective to the individual. Learning and more accurate, feeling that you are part of a larger picture is part of the process.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Experiencing is a revelation

A revelation of what though? Another aspect of ourselves?

 

[Koldo]

I'm not sure I understand the question. If something is completely intangible, I do not see how someone could know it existed at all. We perceive, as far as I know, through our five senses. What is extra-sensory perception? Do human beings have it? We do not fully understand the human body. We do not understand fully the human mind. If there is such a thing as spiritual knowledge, which I believe there is, I have no idea how one perceives it. I don't believe that anyone does know, yet there are people perceiving things all the time that they ought not be capable of perceiving.

I am going to put it on different terms. Let's assume, for the time being and for the sake of the argument, that god does exist. People claim that they have experiences with/about god. However, as you can see, even if god does exist ( something intangible ), how does one determine that it was actually an experience that had anything to do with god? How does one know it is not just them calling it so, being mistaken about the nature of their experience?

The intangible toothbrush is the intangible god. The tangible toothbrush is the tangible god.
You said you would be unable to tell whether you had an experience with an intangible toothbrush. Yet you say you are able to tell you had an experience with god.
You further explained that perhaps god can make himself tangible. Which would explain why you would be able to determine you had experience with god. Still, that doesn't explain how you would be able to determine that the tangible experience belongs to the realm of experiences that would be proper to the intangible god.

I am going to return to my Michael Jordan example now. I know how Michael Jordan looks like, but I have never ever heard his voice. So I have no idea what it is like to talk with Michael Jordan. Since I have no away to know that much ( on this case I can check some videos, but the same can't apply to god so this is not important ), couldn't I completely mistaken if someone told me he is Michael Jordan and I believed in that? Couldn't I be mistaken to say that I had an experience of sorts with Michael Jordan through the phone? On the case of Michael Jordan, I can check information about him. Even meet in him person to verify whether I actually talked to him on the phone, and then compare the new information I have acquired with my previous experience. How would someone proceed to do just that when it comes down to god experiences?

I use to play in a band. We had a show to put on in Philadelphia, about an hour from my home. I was presently living with my grandfather. Our drummer was going to have a BBQ the following day, and I had decided to stay at his place for the night so that I could help him set up for the party the following day, and save myself some driving time. The following morning something felt very wrong to me. I became very anxious and got the "feeling" that I needed to get home right away. I left immediately. When I arrived home, there were cops and ambulances in my driveway. I ran inside to find my grandfather had suffered a major heart attack. Paramedics were beginning to work with him. He was conscious, and I was able to speak with him and to try to comfort him for about five minutes, until he lost consciousness. He died an hour later in the hospital.

How could I have possibly known that getting home was so urgent?

The best answer I can give you is: I don't know.
But there are many possibilities. It could be a mere coincidence, or there could be some connection between you and your grandfather that we don't comprehend, or it could be even some other god that has nothing to do with the god you believe in.[/QUOTE]

 

[Koldo]

As I just explained to you in my previous response to you, it is my belief that we have more than 5 senses. Don't ask me what they are. Apparently, we haven't discovered them yet. But we employ them all the time. You don't need to know that you have the ability to sense something in order to sense it. You don't need to know that you have eyes in order to see with your eyes.

Even if there is some other sense through which we can perceive god, how do you know it is god that you are perceiving and not something else entirely?

I can perceive a butterfly without knowing what is a butterfly, but to call it a butterfly requires me to recognize it as such through comparison. What are you comparing your god experience to?

 

[Sonofason]

]

So... you learned what a God is, compared this to what you experienced, and realized that the experience was from God?

It's not that easy to discern. I had known about God. I knew the concept of what a god was. But it wasn't until I started to seek God that I found myself experiencing something that I now strongly believe was some form of presence of God. It was and is far more than the physical experience of the hairs raising on my arms, and goosebumps, but a deep sense of love directed towards me. Now I love my wife, and I know she loves me. And I've never experienced that sense of love ever before in my life. It was as though my entire soul or mind, or heart, or what ever you want to call it, was in the right place with regard to where God desires me (us) to be.

This suggests a question: what's God? How can we tell the difference between God and other things?

I can not tell you what God is exactly based simply on my own personal experience of God. My personal experience of God has not in any way suggested that God is the creator of the universe for example. What I perceived in my experience of God is love. So to me, God is love. However, when I have contemplated the qualities of God that others have ascribed to God, I experience God. Most of what I know of God I have learned from others. Surely, there are those who know God far better than I do. I'm still struggling with sin. But when I am in prayer and I am addressing my heavenly Father using terms and attributes of God that I have learned to use from other people who apparently know God far better than I experience God. Jesus speaks of us being capable of experiencing the Holy Spirit if we love and obey Him. The Holy Spirit is often called the Spirit of Truth. Jesus had referred to this Holy Spirit "as another Comforter" in John 14, verse 16. He also refers to this being as the Spirit of Truth. I find that very interesting, because when I experience that which I believe is from God, my experience of God, I also feel as though I am somehow experiencing Truth, and this makes perfect sense to me, because when I am in the right state of mind, the state of mind that God desires for us to be in, it is most logical that God would send you comfort in the form of truth. Sometimes I'll be listening to a song, often times secular music that touches on these fundamental values of God, like love for others, and I get the goosebumps and that strong sensation of love and truth, and I know that what I just heard is absolute truth. So, God is also Truth. So from my own personal experience of God, I perceive that God is love and God is truth. And as a result of my learned knowledge of God, and how God is affected by that which I have learned, and in accordance I suppose to how I have processed those learned attributes of God, and considering the response I receive from the Holy Spirit, I gather that God is much much more. There is no doubt in my mind that what I have learned about God, such as Him being the creator of the universe is also true. But I could be wrong, and I'm okay with that. I'm confident that God will set straight every imperfect perception I have of Him before all is finished.

A person who knows what a butterfly is would be able to describe a butterfly. You claim to know what God is, so please describe God.

Can I blind person know what a butterfly is? Can a blind person describe a butterfly? I suppose that a person could indeed describe a butterfly if he were blind, but he surely could not do that simply based upon his own personal experience of butterflies, could he?

God is a being perfect in all of His attributes.
God is knowable.
God is approachable.
God is creative.
God is forgiving.
God is honest.
God is capable.
God is loving.
God is wise.
God is fatherly.
God is just
God is eternal
God is the creator and savior for all mankind.

Goosebumps are associated with strong emotions like fear and sexual arousal. It's an autonomic response.

I have to tell you, I've gotten the goose bumps before, prior to ever believing that it might also be associated with experiencing some form of presence of God. I remember occasions when I was a kid sitting outside in the dark with some friends telling ghost stories, and I'd get the goosebumps; and so clearly, your right. Goosebumps can be and often are associated with fear. While I personally don't ever recall getting goosebumps from being sexually aroused, I don't doubt that sexual arousal can prompt such a sensation. After all, sex is supposed to be about love, and we can experience love.

That fact that the goosebumps are an autonomic response makes a lot of sense to me. If God wants us to "feel" Him, because we are carnal beings, it only makes sense to me that He's got to do that via our nervous system. We just don't feel anything without our nervous system. Why wouldn't I expect that to be necessary as well to experience God?

But let's set that aside for a moment.
Pretend we don't know what causes goosebumps.

No, we can't do that. You are suggesting that you know what causes goosebumps, but all you have said is that goosebumps are "an autonomic response." That says absolutely nothing at all as to what causes goosebumps. The autonomic system is the vehicle whereby chemical response reactions take place relaying sensory information to and from the brain. The autonomic system doesn't cause goosebumps. We have an autonomic system at all times, and we do not have goosebumps at all times. There has to be stimuli first. The stimuli are the causes of goosebumps, which causes a chemical chain reaction within the nervous system (autonomic system), either to or from the brain.

Please fill in the blank:

- I get goosebumps (when it's not cold).
- therefore, ____________.
- therefore, God must have done it.

What goes in that space to make it make sense?

Sorry, I can not complete the form with the information given. I need more information. Perhaps you need to provide an additional line or two of premise, and I see no need for two lines for conclusion.

 

[Sonofason]

You didn't know.

This is called counting the hits and ignoring the misses. When our intuition tells us something, if it's wrong, we don't pay much attention; if it's right, we assume that this is significant.

ha ha, that's no different an assumption than me saying it was God that did it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

ha ha, that's no different an assumption than me saying it was God that did it.

It's based on the assumption that you're a normal-enough person that sometime your intuition tells you things that don't turn out to be true. Is my assumption correct?

When your intuition is wrong, do you assume that it's God messing with you? If not, why assume that when it's right, it's God?

One correct prediction is unremarkable. As they say, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. What matters is the success RATE: how many times was your intuition wrong before it happened to be right?

 

[Sonofason]

You didn't know.

This is called counting the hits and ignoring the misses. When our intuition tells us something, if it's wrong, we don't pay much attention; if it's right, we assume that this is significant.

I've only had a feeling like that one other time in my life, many years back, when I was absorbed in pornography. I remember I had cut out a collection of naked pictures from a few magazines and had them in my truck. One afternoon, I went to my truck and those pictures were not where I had left them. I was very concerned and quite embarrassed. I knew someone found them. That night while asleep, I saw in a dream one of my fellow co-workers rummaging through papers in my truck. I had been working on a job site which had many workers, perhaps 20 people or so. And several of them had access to my vehicle, as it was a company work truck filled with company tools. No one but myself would I have thought required access to the front cab of my truck. I was the only one who dealt with the paperwork I was carrying.

So I confronted him the next day, out of curiosity for the dream I had had the previous night. And guess what?

This was the 1st of only two occasions that I recall ever having a premonition of any kind. And both were validated.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This was the 1st of only two occasions that I recall ever having a premonition of any kind. And both were validated.

... "that you recall." This is my point. Intuition and premonition aren't remarkable or memorable when they fail. We also tend to assign extra significance to our earlier feelings after the fact.

 

[Sonofason]

Why?

Because I believe the Bible is entirely true. I believe all of the authors said what they said in all honesty. I believe that they perceived what they claim to have perceived. I believe they recorded historical facts as they truly perceived them. I see no cause to discount any of it. And I like knowledge.

 

[Sonofason]

... "that you recall." This is my point. Intuition and premonition aren't remarkable or memorable when they fail. We also tend to assign extra significance to our earlier feelings after the fact.

Of course that's often true and could possibly be true for me. Nonetheless, those two experiences were remarkable to me.

 

[Sonofason]

It's based on the assumption that you're a normal-enough person that sometime your intuition tells you things that don't turn out to be true. Is my assumption correct?

When your intuition is wrong, do you assume that it's God messing with you? If not, why assume that when it's right, it's God?

One correct prediction is unremarkable. As they say, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. What matters is the success RATE: how many times was your intuition wrong before it happened to be right?

I don't recall ever having any premonitions other than the two I've mentioned. So I don't recall ever having a premonition that hasn't come true. All of the premonitions that I recall having have come true. And to me, that is remarkable. I don't assume that premonitions come only from God. But I certainly can't exclude that possibility.

 

[Cephus]

Of course that's often true and could possibly be true for me. Nonetheless, those two experiences were remarkable to me.

Which is why confirmation bias is so insidious, it makes things that are really insignificant more important. There have been studies done on psychics who make tons and tons and tons of predictions, the overwhelming majority of them false, but people who believe in the psychics entirely ignore the misses and only pay attention to the hits when the number of hits, if taken as a percentage of the whole, perform no better than random chance.

 

[Sonofason]

Which is why confirmation bias is so insidious, it makes things that are really insignificant more important. There have been studies done on psychics who make tons and tons and tons of predictions, the overwhelming majority of them false, but people who believe in the psychics entirely ignore the misses and only pay attention to the hits when the number of hits, if taken as a percentage of the whole, perform no better than random chance.

mysticism and fortune telling, according to the Bible is evil.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Which is why confirmation bias is so insidious, it makes things that are really insignificant more important.

That's true. And wishful thinking can distort perception in a significant way.