Faith in Christ is Completely Logical

[Serenity7855]

If The Spirit is able to guide us the Bible need not be perfect. Why do you need both? Obviously The Spirit is perfect. If the written word is also perfect then it is The Spirit's equal. Or why not?

If the Holy Spirit and the written word conflict what then?

One witnesses the other. If one had errors and the other did not then they could not stand as witnesses for each other. They need to be equal for them to both testify of Christ.

Why do you insist that Holy writ has errors. To say that Jesus "made" disciples instead of calling them as foreordained ministers is not really an error, is it, as it is an irrelevance in the great scheme of things. It is a trivial insignificance.

As for the one conflicting with the other, that is a non sequitur. One could never follow the other.

 

[Serenity7855]

That's like me asking you to disprove that invisible blue fairies make it rain. You must admit that that is an impossible task, right?

No it is not. One is a complex and intricate plan without faults and the other is a ridiculous assertion. We all know that blue fairies cannot make it rain.

 

[Ingledsva]

No I don't think so. A disciple and an apostle are not the same. An apostle is a disciple but a disciple isn't an apostle.

They mention 120 Disciples, from which they chose one to be among the 12 apostles. After narrowing the choices to two, they used Magic Lots to chose the one to be an apostle.

Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Act 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Act 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

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[Ingledsva]

If you think that I would intentionally ignore a genuine question then you would be wrong. Perhaps you did not make what you wanted to know clear enough.



Because God influenced the list of books that was given to Constantine by the Bishops of various churches. Those are the books that God wanted, although the Nicene Creed is itself false doctrinal.

No it wasn't from God. For cripes-sake they later dumped books they originally chose. So obviously NO, God wasn't choosing.

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[Serenity7855]

No it wasn't from God. For cripes-sake they later dumped books they originally chose. So obviously NO, God wasn't choosing.

*

So you are saying that it was not the error of the founding forefathers who included them and then God excluded them later when their stubbornness to listen subsided. Yes, God was choosing. You just never found him to know it was him. If you had, then you would know, by your faith, that they would have never been compiled, as they are, if not for the promptings of the spirit of God. Sometimes man needs more then one prompting to get it right. I know I do. We don't always get it the first time.

 

[Madtown]

Yes, God was choosing.

Not sure how you could ever hope to "know" this for certain. I always find declarative, conlusive statements curious.

 

[Serenity7855]

Not sure how you could ever hope to "know" this for certain. I always find declarative, conlusive statements curious.

I believe in the theory of evolution. It is the best possible explanation for life as we know it. I will continue to believe it until something better comes along. Until a better explanation for how God chose the books which were to be included in the Holy Bible is revealed, I believe that the best explanation at the present time is that he influenced the founding forefathers into selecting what we have. Like evolution, there is no doubt that we definitely got here by one means or another, so, God definitely arranged it so this method is as good as any to insure what he wanted in the Bible.

 

[Madtown]

Until a better explanation for how God chose the books which were to be included in the Holy Bible is revealed
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Except, humans chose the books that were included in the bible! Humans also wrote the books included in the bible. What makes you think God had anything to do with it? Why would that be your default position, when we know the names of the authors(allegedly) of many of the books? The "best explanation", is to simply say "we don't know". Because.......we don't know. If you believe in God(whichever version), then to believe he needed human help in crafting his word, means you doubt God's power to write his own word. Why do you doubt God's power?

 

[Sapiens]

And what you are missing is that Thief and I can simultaneously experience the same God. As for you photographing the same tree as others, that is not necessarily true. I just photographed a tree in my back yard. I would like you to verify that the tree is there by taking a photograph of that tree yourself. You can post that photo promptly please, as I don't have a whole lot of time to prove my point.

No, you can only make the unsubstantiated claim that you do so, photo analysis of the two pictures can prove that they are the same or falsify the claim, when it comes to you two "experiencing" the same anything you're just flapping your gums.

 

[savagewind]

One witnesses the other. If one had errors and the other did not then they could not stand as witnesses for each other. They need to be equal for them to both testify of Christ.

Why do you insist that Holy writ has errors. To say that Jesus "made" disciples instead of calling them as foreordained ministers is not really an error, is it, as it is an irrelevance in the great scheme of things. It is a trivial insignificance.

As for the one conflicting with the other, that is a non sequitur. One could never follow the other.

You say the written word DOESN'T have errors then you say "if it had errors". You are not making sense.

Why do you insist that Holy writ has errors.

I've seen them.

To say that Jesus "made" disciples instead of calling them as foreordained ministers is not really an error, is it, as it is an irrelevance in the great scheme of things. It is a trivial insignificance.

It is not insignificant. When a person hears and obeys "MAKE" and spends his whole life complying with the command "Make them follow me" he has perhaps wasted his life for something only God can do. Only The Holy Spirit can make disciples. So maybe God had a real occupation for the person to complete but he can't because his mind and his heart is on Jesus' command "make". Your saying it is insignificant reveals to me your love has grown cold.

As for the one conflicting with the other, that is a non sequitur. One could never follow the other

I do not know what this means.

 

[savagewind]

They mention 120 Disciples, from which they chose one to be among the 12 apostles. After narrowing the choices to two, they used Magic Lots to chose the one to be an apostle.

Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Act 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Act 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

*

I don't know what you are talking about. Are you equating the command "go therefore and make disicples" with the one instance in history where an apostle had to be chosen to make 12 again?

 

[Ingledsva]

So you are saying that it was not the error of the founding forefathers who included them and then God excluded them later when their stubbornness to listen subsided. Yes, God was choosing. You just never found him to know it was him. If you had, then you would know, by your faith, that they would have never been compiled, as they are, if not for the promptings of the spirit of God. Sometimes man needs more then one prompting to get it right. I know I do. We don't always get it the first time.

It is amazing how you keep saying one thing, and then changing it after someone rebuts your info!

This is what you said - In reply to posts saying there were many conflicting books out there and people decide which to keep and toss.

"Because God influenced the list of books that was given to Constantine by the Bishops of various churches. Those are the books that God wanted, although the Nicene Creed is itself false doctrinal."

And above in blue is what you are NOW saying since I pointed out that CHOSEN books - were later dumped - so OBVIOUSLY GOD was NOT doing the choosing!


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[Ingledsva]

I don't know what you are talking about. Are you equating the command "go therefore and make disicples" with the one instance in history where an apostle had to be chosen to make 12 again?

Go back to page 85 and read our conversation through.

You said Disciples can't be made. That makes no sense. Are you saying they just walked up to people in other countries, and zap, they were, or were not, disciples? They made them through discussion, teaching, and acceptance. That verse I quoted said there were already 120 Disciples, from which one was chosen to be the replacement Apostle.

*

 

[Desert Snake]

Go back to page 85 and read our conversation through.

You said Disciples can't be made. That makes no sense. Are you saying they just walked up to people in other countries, and zap, they were, or were not, disciples? They made them through discussion, teaching, and acceptance. That verse I quoted said there were already 120 Disciples, from which one was chosen to be the replacement Apostle.

*

Right, I'm just trying to figure out your point.

 

[savagewind]

Go back to page 85 and read our conversation through.

You said Disciples can't be made. That makes no sense. Are you saying they just walked up to people in other countries, and zap, they were, or were not, disciples? They made them through discussion, teaching, and acceptance. That verse I quoted said there were already 120 Disciples, from which one was chosen to be the replacement Apostle.

*

Change your verb and I'll agree. OK? The Holy Spirit ONLY can make disciples. A person can't make another person a disciple.
A disciple demonstrates his or her discipleship. Other people are drawn to follow Christ also. WHO made them to follow Christ? YOU say the person demonstrating discipleship makes them follow Christ too. Shouldn't you reconsider?

 

[savagewind]

Matthew 10:37
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

Can you make someone hate their family to be worthy of Christ? But that is what they must do to be a disciple. You shouldn't make them hate their family. It is wrong. Isn't it?

 

[Serenity7855]

Until a better explanation for how God chose the books which were to be included in the Holy Bible is revealed
-------------------------
Except, humans chose the books that were included in the bible! Humans also wrote the books included in the bible. What makes you think God had anything to do with it? Why would that be your default position, when we know the names of the authors(allegedly) of many of the books?

Because I am a Christian.

The "best explanation", is to simply say "we don't know". Because.......we don't know.

We, as in us Christians, who are privileged to be blessed with a greater knowledge then non believers, know that it was God who compiled it from the writings of man, we just do not know how. It is not necessary for us to know how. So the best explanation is the one that I have given.

If you believe in God(whichever version), then to believe he needed human help in crafting his word, means you doubt God's power to write his own word. Why do you doubt God's power?

What do you mean when using the term "God (whichever version)" in a provocative and argumentive taunt. 19 posts and you are already being offensive.

Not overly apt at the deductive reasoning are we. He did not solicit human help, he merely took what they had previously written and used it to compile a book of commandments. Simple, when you are open minded and free to think laterally. If He were to have written it then we would all know that He exists and the Plan of Redemption would be destroyed.

I do not doubt God's power. Why do you talk of God when you know he does not exist in your world. None of this deity stuff concerns you.

 

[savagewind]

Someone said to make people of the nations disciples means that to be a disciple a person must not hinder anyone else from joining the ecclesia (the assembling for Jesus Christ). I think that is right and true. THE VERB IS WRONG. Welcome is good. Draw good too. Accept is perfect.......
Therefore welcome people of the nations
Therefore draw people of the nations to me
Therefore accept all people of the nations
Therefore honor people of all nations
Therefore invite people of the nations
Therefore attract people of the nations
Therefore encourage people of the nations

Matthew 28:19

See?

But what did it become? They think make means to change them into what they think Christ loves.

 

[Serenity7855]

You say the written word DOESN'T have errors then you say "if it had errors". You are not making sense.

There is nothing wrong in making a statement then offering a hypothetical proposition. It should make perfect sense when reading it in context.

I've seen them.

I haven't and I have read them many time. I think you are being a tad finicky.

It is not insignificant. When a person hears and obeys "MAKE" and spends his whole life complying with the command "Make them follow me" he has perhaps wasted his life for something only God can do. Only The Holy Spirit can make disciples. So maybe God had a real occupation for the person to complete but he can't because his mind and his heart is on Jesus' command "make". Your saying it is insignificant reveals to me your love has grown cold. I do not know what this means.

Then that person is an excessive literalist. It is not necessary to dissect every single word to extract what is being said. How do you know that only the Holy Ghost can make disciples. Where is that written, and if true, so what. What are you trying to say. Is it not sufficient that we know that Jesus had twelve disciple without having to know if they were foreordained, ordained by the Holy Ghost, or by the most likely candidate, the son of God, who held the Holy Priesthood after the order of the son of God. Should we also be aware of hair colour and eye colour. Is any of these trivialities going to secure exaltation for us. Come on, you are being to literal. What is important is that Jesus knew what he was doing in and so did his disciples.

I take accept ion to my love for Jesus Christ being questioned because of my belief in scripture.

 

[savagewind]

I take accept ion to my love for Jesus Christ being questioned because of my belief in scripture.

Interesting you heard me say I see your love has grown cold for Jesus Christ when I htink it was very clear in the post it means for the one who you say should be making disciples for Jesus Christ.