We may cease to exist, but even then that doesn't mean we won't become conscious at some point in the future in another being. Your faith in permanent death unrightly discounts all the possibilities in the OP.
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Faith in permanent death
- Thread starter 839311
- Start date
We may cease to exist, but even then that doesn't mean we won't become conscious at some point in the future in another being. Your faith in permanent death unrightly discounts all the possibilities in the OP.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Consciousness and memory are two different things.
waitasec
Veteran Member
i see. so if there were an after life we wouldn't be aware of it being one.
Perhaps not, depending on what kind of afterlife. If the matter and energy of which our consciousness is made of is 'recycled' into another being under an eternal return scenario, then I don't think memories could survive. So we could potentially have lived an infinite number of lives, but the memories would never be saved from life to life.
Ofcourse, if God exists or we are in a simulation that is being run by an advanced civilization, then our memories may be transferred if the technology exists to do this.
waitasec
Veteran Member
maybe this life is an afterlife...
but i'm not so concerned about the hereafter...the here and now has all of my attention.
That is a pretty good question. I know that there are instincts that survive but not sure how much of that would survive to give you a certain personality. It seems to me that instinct is similar to memory of some kind to act a certain way programmed from out dna. Humans do have instincts too and as a baby are already geared to do math, rationalize (hard to test for obvious reasons but I've seen tests that seem to indicate it) and even as a newborn we step as if ready to walk. Some think this stepping instinct goes away but it isn't true when testing a baby in water after 6 months, it is just that our anatomy doesn't allow walking until we have the strength. I'd love to know if likes and dislikes are passed on but it is hard to say how much of an impact the environment has for most everything.
otokage007
Well-Known Member
Your faith in reincarnation makes you believe in magic. Are you happy with that?
If I may preempt 839311's response with an explanation of my own, please:
Reincarnation isn't based on magic. It may appear that way if it is not understood.
It is because the Soul (Consciousness) cannot be destroyed or changed, so the body-mind, which is material continues to be born and die, until one realises God and is liberated from the material realm.
otokage007
Well-Known Member
Conciousness is a result of neuronal activity in the cerebral cortex, specificly in the hypocampal cortex. This can be proven by extracting some areas of cortex using neuro-surgery, something that produces the conciousness of any mammal to cease to exist.
Another proof that conciousness is physical, is the fact that lots of medicines can alter it.
As you can see, it is not related to the soul.
maybe this life is an afterlife...
but i'm not so concerned about the hereafter...the here and now has all of my attention.
Same understanding here. Do we understand the now?
There is no way to separate consciousness from the material. This is the key mistake, understand this mistake and you have understood the key.
If we remove consciousness then the body dies (i.e. natural death), likewise if we remove the hypocampal cortex then the Consciousness is seen to cease.
The consciousness is always the consciousness. Matter changes.
Medicines do not alter consciousness, they alter awareness of the body-thoughts. This is why someone knows when they are (or have been) under the effect of medicine.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
No it isn't. They know they've been knocked out because their memory comes back and says, "Oi, there's a bit missing!"
"memory comes back" back from where?
Something knows that there is a gap, it isn't memory. Memory is static in this sense like a milestone between two places in time.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
I'm anthropomorphizing a subsystem for the purposes of the example. I don't know what finds the gap, but it is probably whatever is responsible for recording memory in the first place.
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otokage007
Well-Known Member
The only one who knows there is a gap is the hot lady that stands with you next morning saying: oh so you don't remember!?
And who knows the hot lady? -- a ghost?
I actually don't believe in an afterlife, I just think its likely.
I give you credit for reading 10 pages, thats a lot of reading. If you had read all the posts you would have seen that I agree with you that the perspective you mention is a good one. I didn't include it in the OP because I wanted to stir the pot a bit
But Im not sure that anyone actually embraces this perspective fully. I think for some (most? maybe all?) of these people the weight of impending and permanent doom can and does cause some degree of stress, at one time or another, or quite frequently. I do pity these people, because I think their faith in permanent death makes their life bleak in a way, even if they do try to look at it from the perspective you mentioned.
The idea of permanent death certainly is hopeless. Theres no question about that. To conclude that this life is all we have leaves no room for hope.
Well like I said I do apologize for not reading the full 50 pages and any inaccuracies in my assumptions. First off I'd like to note that I don't think that the idea of "some degree of stress" related to a finite life is exclusive to those who don't believe in an afterlife. I think that this concept can and does haunt those that believe just as much as the "non-believers". The reasoning is that we simply don't know. The fact that there are an incredible amount of theories going around spurs this even more I believe. If we all accepted that this is all we get and didn't bother hypothesizing about alternate scenarios (not that I'm condoning this, just positing a theory) we would be much more comfortable with the idea overall. Now I don't think that this attitude means that someone with a view of no afterlife somehow stresses over this concept more than someone who believes in an afterlife simply because the thoughts are floating around. I feel just as one accepts that when they die there's more, we believe when we die there is no more. Does this have to cause suffering? Do you think most vegetarians have stress over the idea of never having meat again? The one's I have met don't, and I'd suggest that the ones who do probably are influenced heavily over the culture and acceptance of eating meat. So I think there's sort of a need for acceptance on both sides. If you believe in an afterlife then you have to accept that for the idea of "noafterlife" to not cause you stress, and I feel the same rings true for the opposite.
I am one who was raised in a Christian family and thus was taught very young that if I was a good little boy I'd get into heaven and otherwise...I'd go to H-E-Double Hockey Sticks (we were so afraid of this place we weren't allowed to even say the word "Hell"). Now looking back on my "previous life," I see that not only did the view of an afterlife (at least through these terms) cause me a great deal of stress, but my difficulty with the comprehension of this view and the conflicting thought that, "There may be NO HEAVEN AT ALL!" always popping up in my head, caused a great deal more stress in my life than after I accepted that "This is all we get, so enjoy it."
As for the absence of hope, I must ask, "Why do we need hope in an afterlife?" I'm content with the thought that this is all I have. Is it bad for some stuff to be hopeless? I don't hope that there are unicorns out there...do you pity me for that (extreme example I know, but bare with me)? I think we choose where we want to place our hope. I hope that I can make the world, however minutely, a better place than it would be had I not been born. I hope that some day I will experience the joy of being a father. However, I don't hope that there's an afterlife, but if there is, I'll do my best to enjoy that, in whatever form it is.
I apologize for my assumptions. I was thinking more strictly the judeo-christian view of the afterlife. One where you leave here and go somewhere else for eternity. I acknowledge that other views of an afterlife, like the infinite lives view, may be more conducive to living in the now. However, from the judeo-christian view the afterlife seems more like an escape from this world. From the majority of the people that I've seen "saved" have been "saved" because they've hit a low in their life, have realized that they want to be in heaven, etc. These views seem more defeatist to me than the acceptance of no after-life. Like I said, I apologize for wrapping all views of an after-life in that, and I do know some Christians and Jews who are able to appreciate now. I just feel they're far and few between.
I feel we've found some common ground here :yes:. This is what I believe whole-heartedly. And while I'll note that I've personally experienced more selfish after-life..ers (there's gotta be a word for that) than those that believe in no afterlife, I think that it is entirely based on how you come to terms with your view. Obviously in both concepts one has room to feel that this world is temporal so why bother, just as in both concepts there is good reason to want to do good for others and leave this world better than one found it. I just kind of wanted to explain that the view of no life after death doesn't have to be defeatist or worthy of your pity :no:
You talked about "the weight of impending and permanent doom can and does cause some degree of stress." While I'll agree that it has caused stress in my life, it has caused EXPONENTIALLY less stress since I've come to accept that there is no afterlife. It allowed me to stop focusing on what's next and enjoy now. And yes when these thoughts arise, my viewpoint I discussed earlier comforts me. Honestly, I don't see the point in constantly thinking about whether there is an afterlife or not. Once you've gotten a solid feeling on what you think makes most sense...does it change anything? If it does then you've missed the point. I choose to live my life, enjoy it while I can, do what I can to make the lives of those around me better, and at the end of the day, if my time is here, I'll either enjoy the next life, or I won't
-Benhamine
Edit:
Ok that turned into a book very quickly...I apologize for the length
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Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
I think that this is where you and I have the greatest disagreement. It is not a disagreement over whether consciousness and memory are identical things. They are not. But the disagreement is over whether consciousness and memory can exist independently of each other. Consciousness is very much a part of the stream of memory--the comparison of past experiences with present and expected future experiences. It is impossible to have consciousness without memory, because consciousness is situated in time and place. Memory is the central mechanism that makes us our individual selves. When you lose your memories, you literally become a very different person, as anyone knows who has experienced a loved one suffering from dementia or Alzheimer's syndrome.
Reincarnation is the belief that something passes from one body at death to a subsequent body at birth. If there are no memories being transferred, then there is no connection between the two bodies and no reincarnation in any meaningful sense of the word.