Faith in permanent death

[PolyHedral]

You're right; but neither of us mentioned consciousness existing before computation. That's entirely your own viewpoint, and is invalid under the logic idav and I are using.

 

[idav]

As per the proposition: Consciousness of "I" does not exist but develops post computation. A thing which does not exist cannot do anything, including computation and its initiation.

Conception is what initiated everything for an individual. The instructions are already their to "build" this machine that will have awareness and eventually have conciousness in a way that allows memory of it. Were we not "aware" in the womb even though we don't remember it? Computations were already occuring even if we were not conscious yet.

 

[atanu]

You're right; but neither of us mentioned consciousness existing before computation.

I did not say that you said that consciousness existed prior to computation. I say that by your prposition computation is impossible.

Has any one seen any computation without consciousness?

In a computer the intelligence is of the programmer.

 

[atanu]

Conception is what initiated everything for an individual.

I can agree. Conception or at some point of time a particular mode of consciousness called 'individual consciousness' begins taking shape. And this is entirely due to localised sensual experiences such as "I smell", "I hear".

In every individual, the "I" is inbuilt and common.

The instructions are already their to "build" this machine that will have awareness and eventually have conciousness in a way that allows memory of it. Were we not "aware" in the womb even though we don't remember it? Computations were already occuring even if we were not conscious yet.

OK. This is the interesting part. There is nothing that I can disagree here.

 

[idav]

I can agree. Conception or at some point of time a particular mode of consciousness called 'individual consciousness' begins taking shape. And this is entirely due to localised sensual experiences such as "I smell", "I hear".

In every individual, the "I" is inbuilt and common.



OK. This is the interesting part. There is nothing that I can disagree here.

Yes the sensations are merely modes of percieving the outside world. We recieve the input and then it is translated into something our brain sees as an object.

The instructions that are already there are from our dna, as I pointed out in the other thread which is geared more towards this discussion. We are in way preprogrammed just as we have built in instincts and automatic functions going on in our body like breathing and the heart beating. The rest is programmed as we go along through the learning process.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

The may be nothing permanent in the universe, even all protons may eventually decay within a time frame of a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years. This is why we are observing this universe in this particular time frame 13.7 billion years post Big Bang rather than the distant future time because there is no material to build life and no protons of course there would be no materials to build the necessary instruments of observation. Telescopes and us are made of baryonic matter and therefore could not exist in a far distant timeframe where they don't exist. It is not that the universe is objectively 13.7 billion years old; it is only that that is the only window of opportunity for subjective observation.

 

[Otherright]

The may be nothing permanent in the universe, even all protons may eventually decay within a time frame of a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion years. This is why we are observing this universe in this particular time frame 13.7 billion years post Big Bang rather than the distant future time because there is no material to build life and no protons of course there would be no materials to build the necessary instruments of observation. Telescopes and us are made of baryonic matter and therefore could not exist in a far distant timeframe where they don't exist. It is not that the universe is objectively 13.7 billion years old; it is only that that is the only window of opportunity for subjective observation.

Ah... the power of entropy.

 

[atanu]

Yes the sensations are merely modes of percieving the outside world. We recieve the input and then it is translated into something our brain sees as an object.

The instructions that are already there are from our dna, as I pointed out in the other thread which is geared more towards this discussion. We are in way preprogrammed just as we have built in instincts and automatic functions going on in our body like breathing and the heart beating. The rest is programmed as we go along through the learning process.

Ya. This programming concept brings in the creator though.

The logic of materialistic scientists, however great they may be, that consciousness does not exist but arises due to computational process is about individual ego consciousness. With given consciousness they create a supposition that consciousness arises from matter, when the matter itself is a representation created by sense functions -- a supposition.

To say that there is a pre-programmed sequence for a living being is saying, in another fashion, that humans are puppets on string of an unknown power. Some call it God and some call it Nature. The point is that knowledge of the consciousness and the hidden motives can free one of the puppet dance.

 

[PolyHedral]

With given consciousness they create a supposition that consciousness arises from matter, when the matter itself is a representation created by sense functions -- a supposition.

A representation of what?

 

[atanu]

A representation of what?

A representation of nature of the person, who being the seer is not seen.

 

[Copernicus]

In a computer the intelligence is of the programmer.

This statement is false. A programmer can get a program to exhibit intelligent behavior, but the intelligence is in the computer after that, not the programmer. AI programmers create autonomous programs that make their own decisions and alter their own programming, based on the circumstances that they encounter. It is also possible to create programs that learn from experience. Hence, the original creator of the program may have no idea of how the program will behave over time.

 

[PolyHedral]

I did not say that you said that consciousness existed prior to computation. I say that by your prposition computation is impossible.

You are being dishonest. You are mixing arguments completely arbitrarily, and then pointing out the contradiction as though it's my fault. I do not accept the idea that consciousness is somehow anything other than software, and so attempting to argue that assuming it is, I'm wrong is a complete strawman. Of course computation is not possible if consciousness is computation and all computation requires consciousness. But the latter is false. Computation does not require consciousness is any way, shape or form.

A representation of nature of the person, who being the seer is not seen.

How can simple numbers be a representation of a person? That's what matter is in all the contexts that humans cannot perceive.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Just suppose you are dead for a googolplex years and you wake up. That may be an interval of time that is impossible to imagine because it is 1 followed by more zeros then there are atoms in the observable universe. But no sense of time existing that entire time it may subjectively like the blink of an eye to you. Now here is the paradox if you are dead for an infinite time then infinite time should also disappear in the blink of an eye. But that would be mathematically impossible because infinity shouldn’t have an end should it?

 

[839311]

Just suppose you are dead for a googolplex years and you wake up. That may be an interval of time that is impossible to imagine because it is 1 followed by more zeros then there are atoms in the observable universe. But no sense of time existing that entire time it may subjectively like the blink of an eye to you

Sure, your right.

Now here is the paradox if you are dead for an infinite time then infinite time should also disappear in the blink of an eye. But that would be mathematically impossible because infinity shouldn’t have an end should it?

That doesn't strike me as a paradox. It strikes me as nonsense. If you are dead for an infinite time, then you are as dead as dead can be - permanently dead.

 

[idea]

Even Atheists Go To (Insert Afterlife Here) | Wired Science | Wired.com

 

[otokage007]

Even Atheists Go To (Insert Afterlife Here) | Wired Science | Wired.com

Sensationalismic font. Kind of cool however.

 

[atanu]

You are being dishonest. You are mixing arguments completely arbitrarily, and then pointing out the contradiction as though it's my fault. I do not accept the idea that consciousness is somehow anything other than software, and so attempting to argue that assuming it is, I'm wrong is a complete strawman. Of course computation is not possible if consciousness is computation and all computation requires consciousness. But the latter is false. Computation does not require consciousness is any way, shape or form.

How can simple numbers be a representation of a person? That's what matter is in all the contexts that humans cannot perceive.

Whatever you think of me is OK.

I know that you are clinging to the weird notion that consciousness is nothing other than software.

And I have been pointing out, without success, that a software means a programmer, a software user, a software uograder, a hardware specialist etc. etc.

In every step, intelligence, life, and intention are required -- from the very beginning.
..............

Give me a break. I have had enough of irrational arguments with you.

 

[idav]

Ya. This programming concept brings in the creator though.

Not really we are a unique combination of our parents and possibly a few individual traits.

The logic of materialistic scientists, however great they may be, that consciousness does not exist but arises due to computational process is about individual ego consciousness. With given consciousness they create a supposition that consciousness arises from matter, when the matter itself is a representation created by sense functions -- a supposition.

It is essentially matter becoming aware of itself but when getting into the deeper level of the mind it is merely chemical reactions and matter reacting to stimuli. Can you prove otherwise or have other viable explanations than what neuroscience has shown?

To say that there is a pre-programmed sequence for a living being is saying, in another fashion, that humans are puppets on string of an unknown power. Some call it God and some call it Nature. The point is that knowledge of the consciousness and the hidden motives can free one of the puppet dance.

Yeah, most I've seen around here are convinced that everything is pretty deterministic. You can't really prove that the mind works outside of what it is influenced to do within the chain of cause and effect.

 

[Acim]

Once you understand that conciousness is just a neuronal process and not related to supernatural things like the soul, you can finally understand that death means you cease to exist.

I'm pretty sure that "you" never really existed.

Closer to imagination.

Surely doesn't exist objectively.

 

[Acim]

Conciousness is a result of neuronal activity in the cerebral cortex, specificly in the hypocampal cortex. This can be proven by extracting some areas of cortex using neuro-surgery, something that produces the conciousness of any mammal to cease to exist.

If you are intelligent consciousness, and you know that which correlates to spatial navigation and memory is removed (destroyed), would you desire to return to that (experience)? Perhaps you might, and just something to think about.

Another proof that conciousness is physical, is the fact that lots of medicines can alter it.

As you can see, it is not related to the soul.

Even your use of the word "see" tells me you don't buy what you're selling.

I would say consciousness attracts medicines for various reasons. Sometimes mind altering is precisely what (lower) consciousness deems necessary.