faith is a useful tool

[emiliano]

Does Pascal's Wager convey sincere belief? I doubt a god who required belief would think so.

The main thing here is that nobody can believe unaided by faith and that faith is a gift of God, simply because God is a spirit, this demands that.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the ages were framed by a word of God, so that the things being seen not to have come into being out of the things that appear.
No Godless person can be expected to understand spiritual matters, unless God has Mercy and give them faith the walk by sight, the believer walks by faith.

 

[darkendless]

Darkenless ,

Well when I read your posts I form an opinion that is similar to yours about the other folks contributions, I have told you enough that you don’t have what spirituality requires to ascent to this knowledge and that this tool is given to some in the most sovereignly way, God has Mercy on who He wants, without faith you cannot be anything but what you are.

Ascent to knowledge seems like your way of defending your faith. I don't know why you keep pushing this stuff that i don't have what it takes spiritually, i was raised Christian emiliano so i've been there, done that.

Great mathematician are theist as well, if you live a virtuous life, if you abstain from giving in to your flesh’s lusts, you can have more than enough time to pursuit theology and several other interest.

Granted yes, but then at least more than a slither of a percent of theists would be more than blind fools with nothing but a book in their hands.
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Nothing helps humanity more than interceding prayers.

Lol..... thats all i can say there. You really are consumed by this garbage.

We draw great benefits from meeting with like minded people, we encourage One another, we help one another, we counsel one another, we love one another with agape love, it produces plenty, a united family a stable marriage etc.

Prayer does not help humanity.

In the area of my work TOE is pretty useless/unproductive whatever TOE means.

Theory of evolution. Don't worry i already knew you had no idea about that anyway, its easier to ignore contrary evidence to your beliefs isnt it :yes:

What I have stated here several times is that without faith you cannot ascent to spiritual knowledge and I or anybody cannot help you, you will stay in the state that you are in till God in His Mercy gives you the gift, I even ignored your trolls, I know that you will not come to faith till God has Mercy on you and, if He does not, it would be because you are not of His family.

So without faith you cannot trick your mind into believing fairy tales, gotcha. Im not a troll im just questioning everything you post here because i seriously disagree with what you call fact.

 

[emiliano]

Ascent to knowledge seems like your way of defending your faith. I don't know why you keep pushing this stuff that i don't have what it takes spiritually, i was raised Christian emiliano so i've been there, done that.

And there it is “you were raised Christian” you weren’t converted to Christianity, thus you could not stand in the course, you are a backslider, are you willing to share your reasons for this? If you don’t it is OK, I am sure that you have them. Backsliders are the product of lack of correct religious training, and sound doctrines.

Granted yes, but then at least more than a slither of a percent of theists would be more than blind fools with nothing but a book in their hands.

I am glad that you do, but I don’t get this, on the one hand you say that that you grant me that many mathematicians are theist, which means that on top of studding math and geometry they study God and the book that He inspired, so what is it? I read a good book authored by a Christian scientist Francis S. Collins, head of the Human Genome project, the scientists that constructed the first complete map of the human gene, the book is titled The Language Of God, in it the author claims that many scientist are theist but keep it a secret because peer pressure so it is hard to ascertain how many are there. Christianity is a faith that teaches self control, abstinence from lust that occupy most of the time of our youth, it seems that this days young people want to be entertained 24/7 fifty two weeks a year, they have no time for anything else but be entertained, because we don’t we have more than enough time in our hand to do more reading of the scriptures and work and study.

 

[Magic Man]

It is that you said that there could other gods and that they would have other heavens, imagine the pagans that have a multitude of god, they have a god for every occasion (I tried to find a word for it, and meant to type Polichotomy), that does not interest me at all, I believe in one almighty God that revealed Himself to me and inspired a manual for righteous living and that is Merciful to me when I fall short of His directives and repent, that is all a need, I rather recognise my fault and ask forgiveness, rather than seek a god that tolerate my error, I don’t want to justify my short falls I rather seek strength from God to stay on course.

I'm sure it doesn't interest you, but that's not the point. It's not about what interests you. In talking about truth, what's interesting is not the only thing needed to be considered. The fact is, whether or not you're interested in hearing about it, there are options other than your God or no God at all.

 

[Magic Man]

No Godless person can be expected to understand spiritual matters, unless God has Mercy and give them faith the walk by sight, the believer walks by faith.

And apparently, some "Godified" people can't be expected to understand matters of reason and logic.

 

[Magic Man]

Backsliders are the product of lack of correct religious training, and sound doctrines.

No, "backsliders", or atheists as I like to call them, are a product of looking at the world differently than you. They are the product of looking at that religious training and using logic and reason to come to conclusions rather than simply using faith. It's not backsliding. The backsliding would be the child who is taught Christianity becoming not an atheist.

 

[emiliano]

Theory of evolution. Don't worry i already knew you had no idea about that anyway, its easier to ignore contrary evidence to your beliefs isnt it :yes:quote]
Ah! A Theory: speculation: abstract thought or contemplation,
Theory, idea formed by speculation: an idea of or belief about something arrived at through speculation or conjecture, hypothetical circumstances: a set of circumstances or principles that is hypothetical . That’s the theory, but it may not work out in practice. I know about it but have not real interest in tadpole evolving into all sort of creatures. I don’t expect frogs ever turning into princes. I am so glad that you aren't worrying.

So without faith you cannot trick your mind into believing fairy tales, gotcha. Im not a troll im just questioning everything you post here because i seriously disagree with what you call fact.

Like I told you faith is a great powerful tool that allows me to obtain what is the principal pursuit of every rational being, rest, peace, hope and happiness, and all that has been given to me as Grace (unmerited favour) I also believe that every believer is the product of an intercession prayer.

 

[emiliano]

I'm sure it doesn't interest you, but that's not the point. It's not about what interests you. In talking about truth, what's interesting is not the only thing needed to be considered. The fact is, whether or not you're interested in hearing about it, there are options other than your God or no God at all.

Not to me. They are no other options, by the way we a discussing faith and I have said that without faith it is impossible to find spiritual knowledge, I posted a piece that says that logic in not a tool to find truth, you are adding to Pascal's wager and that is because distorting the argument you can claim to have rebuked it, but what you’ve done is to formulate a new one, one that does not interest me at all, I don't expect you to understand cause I know that you can't. you have no faith.

 

[Autodidact]

I have faith, I walk by faith, I know what it is, what it does for me, and who gave it to me, and I even why He gave it to me, I know plenty.

So let me follow what you're saying here, emiliano. You know what you know because you know it, and you know it because it's what you know? You know what faith is because you have faith that you know?

Let me ask you this. Do you see any problem with this? Any at all?

 

[Autodidact]

Years ago when I first started realizing that there is no God, I started discussing these questions with theists, just to test my tentative belief. Very soon I found that, like emiliano, all theists engage in circular reasoning and special pleading. This has done more than any other single thing to confirm my atheism. Keep it up, emiliano-good work.

 

[challupa]

So let me follow what you're saying here, emiliano. You know what you know because you know it, and you know it because it's what you know? You know what faith is because you have faith that you know?

Let me ask you this. Do you see any problem with this? Any at all?

:no::cover::help::slap::thud:Faith blinds people from seeing the truth. It prevents them from questioning anything that might make their faith waver. I don't think anyone who prides themselves with strong faith will ever be able to see what you just pointed out Auto.

 

[emiliano]

You have to be pretty stupid or pretty ignorant to dismiss the theory of evolution. No matter what your faith cannot make excuses for your idiocy in ignoring evolution.

You're like arguing with a brick wall. You spew BS Emiliano and cannot accept anything but your own twisted view of reality.

Warning don't go there mate, I am not slouch when it comes to personal attacks and insults, but it very unfair what you doing as I have a monkey on my back already , some one that wants me to leave the forum and is watching every thing I post, so here is where you get off.
The mods in here have a funny way of judging what is inflammatory, offensive or a troll, so long………………..

 

[emiliano]

:no::cover::help::slap::thud:Faith blinds people from seeing the truth. It prevents them from questioning anything that might make their faith waver. I don't think anyone who prides themselves with strong faith will ever be able to see what you just pointed out Auto.

I don't know why atheist like to call it blind when the fact is that with this gift we see more than they do, we have evidences of what is unseen by those that lack faith, I know in whom I trust, a spirit that you cannot see cause is a spirit, I don't understand why is it that the godless like to engage us in spiritual discussion either.

 

[UnityNow101]

Instead of having faith in a God, why don't we see for ourselves whether any of this is true? Can we see God without the theories, ideas, opinions and speculative reasoning which have been expressed through multiple books and seminars? Can God be seen here, in this moment? Or is it, as it seems to be to me, just another silly game holding us back from seeing the reality of this existence? If God is there, then he is there. He doesn't need to be hidden behind opinions and theories, but is there for all to behold. Sadly, I see nothing there other then the speculation and mere theories holding this paper mache-god together like Elmer's glue...

 

[emiliano]

Years ago when I first started realizing that there is no God, I started discussing these questions with theists, just to test my tentative belief. Very soon I found that, like emiliano, all theists engage in circular reasoning and special pleading. This has done more than any other single thing to confirm my atheism. Keep it up, emiliano-good work.

The reasons for that is the Christians believe in a personal God, that God reveals Himself to the elect in an awesome personal way, that is the way it goes God has mercy and gives us faith then we know. It does not come by study or experimentation but by faith, there are some people that will never come to God because they are not of the elect, it isn’t nice either, you must be convicted of your past sins and as from the beginning one tries to justify one’s error, and using free will one decides that it is better to deny and reject God, the light that shows us all our error, some cannot give up their lust and submit to the discipline of God’s commands, so we have believer and non-believer.

 

[darkendless]

Warning don't go there mate, I am not slouch when it comes to personal attacks and insults, but it very unfair what you doing as I have a monkey on my back already , some one that wants me to leave the forum and is watching every thing I post, so here is where you get off.
The mods in here have a funny way of judging what is inflammatory, offensive or a troll, so long………………..

I apologise but its hard to debate politely with you when you fail to understand anything i post, and then post scripture in return and accuse me of being spiritually bankrupt.

I dont want you to leave the forum, we don't see eye to eye but i'm not trying to attack you. I'd say the same thing to a mod if they shared your opinion on evolution.

Also, youve been preaching the same stuff for 20 pages, it's tiresome.

 

[Magic Man]

Not to me. They are no other options, by the way we a discussing faith and I have said that without faith it is impossible to find spiritual knowledge, I posted a piece that says that logic in not a tool to find truth, you are adding to Pascal's wager and that is because distorting the argument you can claim to have rebuked it, but what you’ve done is to formulate a new one, one that does not interest me at all, I don't expect you to understand cause I know that you can't. you have no faith.

I'm not sure how else to say this. I understand that the only choice to you is God. However, in reality (which is where we're discussing this), there are many more options. You can choose not to acknowledge them, if you want, but they're still there.

I'm "adding to Pascal's Wager" because as it is, the argument is false and doesn't work. It's like saying "Obviously it's better to be a lawyer because the only other option is being a trash collector". Clearly, there are hundreds or thousands of other possibilities for jobs in between those two. Again I understand that you're not interested in any but the false Pascal's Wager because using a correct one wouldn't get you to the same conclusion, and all you care about is supporting your side, you don't care about the truth.

So that's what that piece about logic was supposed to be saying? Yes, logic in and of itself doesn't necessarily get you the truth. You also have to have the correct premises. For instance, Pascals' Wager is actually logical, but only because it's built on a false premise. When you include the real premise, it becomes illogical. That's why I said "reason and logic" and not just "logic".

Then again, I wouldn't expect you to understand because I know you can't. You have no reason or logic. (See how two can play that game? )

I don't know why atheist like to call it blind when the fact is that with this gift we see more than they do, we have evidences of what is unseen by those that lack faith, I know in whom I trust, a spirit that you cannot see cause is a spirit, I don't understand why is it that the godless like to engage us in spiritual discussion either.

We like to call it blind, at least in cases like yours, because it blinds you to anything other than your belief. Another term for it is willful ignorance, which is exactly what you display. You don't see more than we do. You see things differently, and you purposely close your mind off to certain things so that your belief is not endangered. Faith lets you see things that aren't really there, and most of us find that useless. We'd rather see things that are really here and that do affect us. Unfortunately, many of those things you can't see due to your faith.

We like to engage you in spiritual discussion because it's sometimes funny, like in your case, and sometimes fascinating as in the cases of so many other RFers.

The reasons for that is the Christians believe in a personal God, that God reveals Himself to the elect in an awesome personal way, that is the way it goes God has mercy and gives us faith then we know. It does not come by study or experimentation but by faith, there are some people that will never come to God because they are not of the elect, it isn’t nice either, you must be convicted of your past sins and as from the beginning one tries to justify one’s error, and using free will one decides that it is better to deny and reject God, the light that shows us all our error, some cannot give up their lust and submit to the discipline of God’s commands, so we have believer and non-believer.

We get it. You have to believe before you can believe. If you don't believe, then you'll never believe. The difference is that doesn't make sense to reasonable people.

Also, it's not "rejecting God". It's realizing that there's no such thing as your personal God.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't know why atheist like to call it blind when the fact is that with this gift we see more than they do, we have evidences of what is unseen by those that lack faith, I know in whom I trust, a spirit that you cannot see cause is a spirit, I don't understand why is it that the godless like to engage us in spiritual discussion either.

I'm sure you see things that I don't, emiliano, but then, so do schizophrenics.

 

[Autodidact]

The reasons for that is the Christians believe in a personal God, that God reveals Himself to the elect in an awesome personal way, that is the way it goes God has mercy and gives us faith then we know. It does not come by study or experimentation but by faith, there are some people that will never come to God because they are not of the elect, it isn’t nice either, you must be convicted of your past sins and as from the beginning one tries to justify one’s error, and using free will one decides that it is better to deny and reject God, the light that shows us all our error, some cannot give up their lust and submit to the discipline of God’s commands, so we have believer and non-believer.

Right, got you. You believe because you have faith, and you have faith because you believe. Further, to you this makes perfect sense--because you have faith, of course!

Are you trying to insinuate that the reason I'm an atheist is because I don't want to follow God's commandments? How'd you figure that out--faith?

 

[challupa]

I don't know why atheist like to call it blind when the fact is that with this gift we see more than they do, we have evidences of what is unseen by those that lack faith, I know in whom I trust, a spirit that you cannot see cause is a spirit, I don't understand why is it that the godless like to engage us in spiritual discussion either.

I don't expect you to understand Emiliano. You cannot see what cannot be seen and that's okay. We have a very different view from you. We cannot understand you either because faith does not work for us. If you trust in who you trust and it gives you comfort and a reason for doing things right in this world, then it's good for you. I engage you in conversation mostly to try and understand this foreign concept of faith and why it has the ramifications it does with some people. I don't have a problem with beliefs that are inclusive about God, but I don't understand people who say that some people are never able to come to God because they have not been chosen. I don't think you know that so it seems irresponsible for you to say that. You cannot know another's heart or their relationship with God and it is disrespectful for you to tell other's they are spiritually dead when you really have no way of knowing what is between them and their God. Do you understand?