Fake Covid Vaccination Cards Are on the Rise

[Shaul]

A COVID vaccine card is a misleading indicator. Most unvaccinated people don’t have COVID. Many vaccinated people still get breakthrough cases of COVID. So requiring one is no guarantee of anything.

 

[Revoltingest]

They're not dangerous (just saying)-that's just what vaccinated people believe cause they don't know who is asymptomatic so anyone can be in danger to them.

You just gave the reason they're dangerous.

For example, I can come near you and you can "think" you're in danger because I'm not vaccinated. Which is fine-just don't jump into the street as I see some do. Anyone can think others are in danger to them and segregate especially when you don't know if I'm asymptomatic.

Now if you got sick you may THINK it was me that got you sick since you have a strong correlation.... without proof of this too it's your perception.

But if the experts and media say you guys are in danger of unvaccinated people, I assume you are. To me that's silly. I get scared sometimes of things I don't know-that's human. Weirdly enough, this isn't one of them. Shrugs.

Just a thought not a sermon.

I reason using epidemiological data.
From it I conclude that unvaccinated people without
immunity pose an unacceptable danger. I make
many decisions about danger mitigation in my business,
eg, locksmithing (pick resistance), plumbing (vacuum
breakers, lead free solder), Megan's Law notices,
lighting levels, gate codes.
Discrimination against anti-vaxers is another.

 

[We Never Know]

A COVID vaccine card is a misleading indicator. Most unvaccinated people don’t have COVID. Many vaccinated people still get breakthrough cases of COVID. So requiring one is no guarantee of anything.

Not only that, if someone goes somewhere, say a restaurant and has to show a "I'm vaccinated card" to get in, how does the place know its really theirs? How do they know its real?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You just gave the reason they're dangerous.

They're dangerous because vaccinated people don't know whose asymptomatic or not.

The danger is perceived from vaccinated people (say fear is one cause). It only exists to those vaccinated who feel threatened by the unknown.

I reason using epidemiological data.
From it I conclude that unvaccinated people without
immunity pose an unacceptable danger. I make
many decisions about danger mitigation in my business,
eg, locksmithing (pick resistance), plumbing (vacuum
breakers, lead free solder), Megan's Law notices,
lighting levels, gate codes.
Discrimination against anti-vaxers is another.

Once unvaccinated people are segregated and made to stay home, who are we saving?

Unvaccinated people would just (quite seriously) kill each other off since they have more potential to carry the virus in relation to those who lowered it. I'd assume that would work better than herd immunity if all who is left are the vaccinated and they feel that catching the virus is so rare for them they are excluded from this. (Aka rarity=not going to happen).

Edit.
Like my example when I come to you, you Think you're in danger, same with businesses. They segregate because they Think their vaccinated costumers are in danger. It's the same line of thinking. How long the segregation would last, I don't know. Unless we unvaccinated are killed off by COVID (no pun) we would have to be forced to stay in our homes. Then we wouldn't have potential to spread the virus and vaccinated people won't catch COVID.

My thing is: this shouldn't be used as an incentive to get people vaccinated.

In other words, I think it would backfire.

 

[Revoltingest]

They're dangerous because vaccinated people don't know whose asymptomatic or not.

It's dangerous because of the danger they pose.
It's not because vaccinated (or even unvaccinated)
people don't know their status.

The danger is perceived from vaccinated people (say fear is one cause). It only exists to those vaccinated who feel threatened by the unknown.

No, they're dangerous because if they're infected,
then they could infect others.

Once unvaccinated people are segregated and made to stay home, who are we saving?

Mostly them. But this is a segregation that they've chosen,
ie, they prefer to not vaccinate, & they accept the consequences.
However the "made to stay home" claim" is inaccurate...they just
aren't able to enjoy the fruits of vaccination.

Unvaccinated people would just (quite seriously) kill each other off since they have more potential to carry the virus in relation to those who lowered it. I'd assume that would work better than herd immunity if all who is left are the vaccinated and they feel that catching the virus is so rare for them they are excluded from this. (Aka rarity=not going to happen).

Edit.
Like my example when I come to you, you Think you're in danger, same with businesses. They segregate because they Think their vaccinated costumers are in danger. It's the same line of thinking. How long the segregation would last, I don't know. Unless we unvaccinated are killed off by COVID (no pun) we would have to be forced to stay in our homes. Then we wouldn't have potential to spread the virus and vaccinated people (so read from a poster) won't catch COVID.

My thing is: this shouldn't be used as an incentive to get people vaccinated.

In other words, I think it would backfire.

I'm discriminating against anti-vaxers because of the
danger they pose....not to provide an incentive to them.
They may do as the please elsewhere, but when they
come to my business, they obey my rules or they go.

 

[Kenny]

Not for the millions who've died of it.

mRNA vaccines have been around for 20 years.

They do if thru their carelessness they infect others.

Anti-vaxers still affect others. Vaccines aren't 100% effective,
so there's still a risk...just greatly reduced. And anti-vaxers
pose a risk to the unvaccinated, some of whom aren't approved
for vaccination.

I'm dealing with principles.

I think it is more of selective principles. HIV+ go everywhere. People with influenza don't have cards. Millions have died from car accidents but you don't mind them going to have drinks at the bar.

There is a risk when you get up in the morning.

But, if you are vaccinated, and only a small part of those vaccinated will get infected, and only a portion of people actually have COVID will be walking around and not in their homes or hospitals and a smaller amount actually transmit it... you finally end up with negligible influence by those who haven't been vaccinated.

So... get your vaccination and live your life free from worry? Many people have health problems through anxiety and fear.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think it is more of selective principles. HIV+ go everywhere. People with influenza don't have cards. Millions have died from car accidents but you don't mind them going to have drinks at the bar.

There is a risk when you get up in the morning.

But, if you are vaccinated, and only a small part of those vaccinated will get infected, and only a portion of people actually have COVID will be walking around and not in their homes or hospitals and a smaller amount actually transmit it... you finally end up with negligible influence by those who haven't been vaccinated.

So... get your vaccination and live your life free from worry? Many people have health problems through anxiety and fear.

I've said this so many times....
- Not all risks are equally probable.
- Not all risks have equal consequences.
- Not all risk avoidance methods are unreasonable.
- You run your business as you want. I'll run mine the
way want....which is to refuse to lease to anti-vaxers.

 

[Shaul]

People of color and the poor are disproportionately less vaccinated. Also many migrants are unvaccinated. Therefore requiring proof of COVID vaccination for employment or services is racist!

 

[Polymath257]

Can we get voters ID? Last I heard, my medical history is personal.

There is an exception to HIPPA for epidemics.You can be denied services if you cannot show you are safe to receive them.

The medical history of Typhoid Mary would NOT be personal.

 

[Polymath257]

Smiley face was just for fun. I have had covid and don't need a vaccination.

Yes, actually, you still do. You are twice as likely to get a new COVID infection as those who are vaccinated.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's dangerous because of the danger they pose.
It's not because vaccinated (or even unvaccinated)
people don't know their status.

How I see it is:

1. If I am in danger of another person, they need to have a weapon of some sort, try to hurt me say by physical violence, or threat (say I'll kill you or I have a gun in my pocket). Those things I'm afraid of.

2. If I were vaccinated and someone unvaccinated came to me I wouldn't think anything of it because I don't know their vaccination status and I don't know their level of risk, so they MAY be in danger-I just don't know. Fear says Yes but facts say "I'm not sure."

That's one of the biggest cause from fear is to think you're in danger. You hear the experts say you are in danger as if people are walking time bombs. You can think you're in danger, nothing wrong with that, but unless they have a gun or point of attack (in analogy), it's just your perception.

Justified yes. Of course. It's a pandemic. Fear does make people turn against each other and not many people know they are afraid that or fight against it in denial.

No, they're dangerous because if they're infected, then they could infect others.

That's the fear of the unknown.

Mostly them. But this is a segregation that they've chosen,

ie, they prefer to not vaccinate, & they accept the consequences.
However the "made to stay home" claim" is inaccurate...they just
aren't able to enjoy the fruits of vaccination.

We have consequences from not washing our hands after we eat, having sex without a condom, and so forth. Having consequences in and of itself is a given. Using it as a guilt-trip or incentive to get people to vaccinate is a whole other animal.

The "fruits" of vaccination?????

You believe vaccination is 100% effective? Even CDC doesn't agree with that.

I'm discriminating against anti-vaxers because of the
danger they pose....not to provide an incentive to them.
They may do as the please elsewhere, but when they
come to my business, they obey my rules or they go

Media and experts say they pose a threat... many people follow that line of thinking.

Well, you believe you are at a higher danger that your life is in danger, that's your thing. Not everyone has that, though. Some people aren't as fearful (or appropriate word) than their peers. So that's understandable on a personal basis. You can segregate yourself from unvaccinated people to feel safe, that's fine (and not trying to be rude just direct). For a business, that, I don't agree with.

 

[Polymath257]

What we do know is that vaccinated people can still get COVID. So... what is the difference?

The probability. Is that really such a difficult thing to understand?

The likelihood that a vaccinated person will get COVID is *much* less than that an unvaccinated person will. That is the *whole point* of vaccination.

And this is the case for *every* vaccination ever. Smallpox vaccine was NOT an absolute guarantee you would not get smallpox. But it made it very unlikely.

 

[Revoltingest]

How I see it is:

1. If I am in danger of another person, they need to have a weapon of some sort, try to hurt me say by physical violence, or threat (say I'll kill you or I have a gun in my pocket). Those things I'm afraid of.

2. If I were vaccinated and someone unvaccinated came to me I wouldn't think anything of it because I don't know their vaccination status and I don't know their level of risk, so they MAY be in danger-I just don't know. Fear says Yes but facts say "I'm not sure."

That's one of the biggest cause from fear is to think you're in danger. You hear the experts say you are in danger as if people are walking time bombs. You can think you're in danger, nothing wrong with that, but unless they have a gun or point of attack (in analogy), it's just your perception.

Justified yes. Of course. It's a pandemic. Fear does make people turn against each other and not many people know they are afraid that or fight against it in denial.



That's the fear of the unknown.



We have consequences from not washing our hands after we eat, having sex without a condom, and so forth. Having consequences in and of itself is a given. Using it as a guilt-trip or incentive to get people to vaccinate is a whole other animal.

The "fruits" of vaccination?????

You believe vaccination is 100% effective? Even CDC doesn't agree with that.



Media and experts say they pose a threat... many people follow that line of thinking.

Well, you believe you are at a higher danger that your life is in danger, that's your thing. Not everyone has that, though. Some people aren't as fearful (or appropriate word) than their peers. So that's understandable on a personal basis. You can segregate yourself from unvaccinated people to feel safe, that's fine (and not trying to be rude just direct). For a business, that, I don't agree with.

I'm not turning against anyone.
But I have standards.
People who don't meet them will do business elsewhere.
This applies to things like credit history & income level.

 

[Polymath257]

I'm not sure that is applicable.

AIDS is incurable.

A proper analogy would to associate it with the Spanish Flu or any other cold. We never asked for a Spanish Flu vaccine report card or a pneumonia report card et al.

We would in the midst of a pandemic of either that was killing people at the rate COVID is and where an effective vaccine was available.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

A COVID vaccine card is a misleading indicator. Most unvaccinated people don’t have COVID. Many vaccinated people still get breakthrough cases of COVID. So requiring one is no guarantee of anything.

I wonder if there is a stat that says unvaccinated people are at an increased risk (not in relation to the vaccinated) that one would think the vaccinated are in more danger and need a vax card than they would before vaccines came to the public.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm not turning against anyone.
But I have standards.
People who don't meet them will do business elsewhere.
This applies to things like credit history & income level.

I can't compare this health-related crisis to just credit history and income level. If COVID was approved as disability (say symptoms cause disability) that can turn into a lawsuit. If you go to the judge and don't show how the potential danger is so high you segregate possible consumers they'd ask for proof that they ARE in danger to other customers--especially when your consumers are vaccinated.

In other words, does the potential risk outweigh the possible consequence.

Edit.
Without that "physical" proof, that decision isn't legally warranted. If you're a private business owner, of course you can do whatever you want. Though, I'm not sure how discrimination legalities would play in this if you can't show the risk is higher than the consequence.

It just depends on how much danger you feel you are in. Everyone's different.

 

[Polymath257]

And over 1,500,000 people die every year from pneumonia and influenza... should we have a pneumonia and influenza passport?

But you are sidestepping the point I was making -- not to mention that there are so many other variables - obesity being one of them as well as age.

If I am sick... I stay home. If you are sick, you shouldn't go to work. But to have a "vaccine passport"? No thank you. Invasion of my medical privacy.

You can be a carrier and not yet be sick. That puts others at risk and it is reasonable to refuse you service unless you can show that risk is minimized.

 

[Polymath257]

A COVID vaccine card is a misleading indicator. Most unvaccinated people don’t have COVID. Many vaccinated people still get breakthrough cases of COVID. So requiring one is no guarantee of anything.

There are few *guarantees* in life. No black and white available.

But there *is* reasonable risk assessment and mitigation.

Those that are allowed to get vaccines and that do not get them are a societal menace. Reasonable mitigation of that menace can and should be done. And that can involve refusal of services.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You can be a carrier and not yet be sick. That puts others at risk and it is reasonable to refuse you service unless you can show that risk is minimized.

Without "numbers" it's pretty much a guess.

 

[Polymath257]

Without "numbers" it's pretty much a guess.

And the numbers show that the delta variant is spreading quickly in the unvaccinated population.

It is now to the place that people with *other* problems are being denied hospital beds because the COVID patients are taking them all.

And *that* is a risk to *everyone*. If you get into a car accident in a region like that, you won't get a bed. If you have a heart attack, you won't get a bed. If you need emergency care, you won't get a bed.

Each and every one of the COVID patients that did not get vaccinated in spite of being eligible should have their insurance benefits for their COVID treatment cut: they should have to pay for what they are doing to others. If the risk of dying doesn't affect them, maybe, just maybe, the economic impact will.