False Prophets

[Muslim-UK]

There is no monotheism, Islam worships Helios , It includes Phoenician characters such as Adam, Abraham, Jacob, Isaac and Moses, it also as an entire chapter dedicated to Alexander the Great.

There is also evidence that parts of the Quran were already in existence before Muhammad and that he stole and redacted existing literature for his own political militaristic goals and sexual fetishes.

I knew there was a good reason why I ignored most of your posts.

 

[Muslim-UK]

But what I don't get is why include them? Maybe Noah and Abraham, but what did the others do to deserve the title?

The Qur'an says they were believers and called their people to do the same. Beyond that I would just be speculating.

 

[Muslim-UK]

A fair part of the Quran is rhetorical commentary on Judaeo-Christian religious traditions. I'm sure we can agree on that.

The Quran assumes its audience is so familiar with the Biblical narratives that it rarely makes any attempt to explain stories and characters before offering this commentary though.

These would make no sense to a Pagan audience completely ignorant of even the most basic aspects of the previous religions.

Other than the unreliable later traditions say so, why would anyone believe that the Quran emerged in an isolated Pagan backwater that magically managed to avoid coming into contact with what had been the dominant Abrahamic religious traditions of the Arabian peninsular for centuries?

If you go to any airport, you'll see plenty of people from across the Globe passing through. No one need know how their Country came into being or who key rulers were etc. For the most part they are just passing through, visiting family or conducting business. Similarly we are told Ishmael's descendants settled in Arabia and initially worshipped Allah swt alone at the sacred Mosque in Mecca. Over the generations fewer and fewer people stayed with Monotheism and as people traded with distant places of commerce, so too they began bringing back other cultures, ideas and gods. Paganism soon took over and as you know, Pilgrims from many different faiths, beliefs and cultures would come to the Mosque and offer prayers and sacrificial offerings to their gods. No doubt some people would have known the basics behind the various faiths, but certainly not the finer details.

Muhammad pbuh would invite Jews and Christians for discussion and to reach common ground, hence the revelation of past stories from Allah swt. We know too his wife Khadijah, may God be pleased with her had a Christian Cousin Waraqa, who was a Monk of sorts, so would have been on hand to explain some details, though he passed away shortly after Muhammad pbuh started receiving revelation.

Aside from knowing there were Jewish tribes in Medina, awaiting the Prophet mentioned in Isaiah 42, there is no real evidence showing thriving Christian and Jewish communities elsewhere, perhaps some small settlements, but nothing like Yemen, which was under Christian rule.

That part of the World was much like a backwater, and we know this from the lack of mention in most Historical records, except from a mention here and there, and even then it was second an information passed on by traders.

You may recall from another discussion we had:

Historian Theodor_Mommsen in his book The Provinces of the Roman Empire: From Caesar to Diocletian mentions mentions that Aelius Gallus sailed with 10,000 legionaries from Egypt and landed at Leuce Kome, a trading port of the Nabateans in the northwestern Arabian coast. He then conquered without difficulty Iathrib (Yathrib/Medina). From there the plan was to crush any resistance and march down to Yemen, but was forced to abandon those conquests -according to Mommsen- not only because of diseases and epidemies, but even because he had overextended his line of supplies from Egypt in a land full of deserts.

It would seem the desert pagans, getting by with trade and caravan raiding never had rulers from the West or East presiding over them. It's almost as if GOD had a special plan for them.

 

[Tmac]

Because we typically don't believe in ourselves. We need someone to get us to re-think our assumptions and show us a new way of doing things.

If I may, we typically believe what we were told when it come to believing in ourselves and what we need is to break the self imposed limitations we place on ourselves. And teachers can be found whenever a student is present.

 

[Rival]

You seem unable to understand the culture of this ancient nation. In this culture, if a child was born *******, that child was not permitted to live in Israel, nor would its children be permitted. If the woman became pregnant because of the rape, this was the only way for the child to be raised with a father and mother and not be a *******.

Children of unmarried parents aren't considered b*stards in Jewish law.

 

[YmirGF]

It would seem the desert pagans, getting by with trade and caravan raiding never had rulers from the West or East presiding over them. It's almost as if GOD had a special plan for them.

Or the Bedouins simply lived in an incredibly inhospitable land, so inhospitable that those who unwittingly entered it had no idea what they were getting into.

 

[columbus]

Or the Bedouins simply lived in an incredibly inhospitable land, so inhospitable that those who unwittingly entered it had no idea what they were getting into.

Ummmm
That wasn't me who wrote that. Muslim-UK.
Tom

 

[Rival]

Or the Bedouins simply lived in an incredibly inhospitable land, so inhospitable that those who unwittingly entered it had no idea what they were getting into.

Or 'desert pagans' is a myth and most were actually very familiar with Abrahamic thought and also many were drafted into Roman and Persian armies.

You decide!

 

[Grandliseur]

Children of unmarried parents aren't considered b*stards in Jewish law.

Deuteronomy 23: 2 A ba-star-d shall not enter into the assembly of Jehovah; even to the tenth generation shall none of his enter into the assembly of Jehovah. (ASV)
ESV: 2 “No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the LORD. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD.​

You are welcome to elaborate on the scripture. Present day customs are not accepted.

 

[YmirGF]

Or 'desert pagans' is a myth and most were actually very familiar with Abrahamic thought and also many were drafted into Roman and Persian armies.

You decide!

That rings a bell, actually.

 

[YmirGF]

Ummmm
That wasn't me who wrote that. Muslim-UK.
Tom

I guess I was responding to something else, and decided not to. The snip remained and I simply deleted to the 2nd brace. Apologies.

Fixed!

 

[Rival]

Deuteronomy 23: 2 A ******* shall not enter into the assembly of Jehovah; even to the tenth generation shall none of his enter into the assembly of Jehovah. (ASV)
ESV: 2 “No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the LORD. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD.​

You are welcome to elaborate on the scripture. Present day customs are not accepted.

Two unmarried people having a child isn't a forbidden union. Only those children born out of forbidden marriages are, such as incest.

The offspring of forbidden marriages are mamzerim (********, illegitimate), and subject to a variety of restrictions; however it is important to note that only the offspring of these incestuous or forbidden marriages are mamzerim. Children born out of wedlock are not mamzerim in Jewish law and bear no stigma, unless the marriage would have been prohibited for the reasons above. Children of a married man and a woman who is not his wife are not mamzerim (because the marriage between the parents would not have been prohibited), although children of a married woman and a man who is not her husband are mamzerim (because she could not have married him).

Judaism 101: Marriage

 

[Grandliseur]

Two unmarried people having a child isn't a forbidden union. Only those children born out of forbidden marriages are, such as incest.

The offspring of forbidden marriages are mamzerim (********, illegitimate), and subject to a variety of restrictions; however it is important to note that only the offspring of these incestuous or forbidden marriages are mamzerim. Children born out of wedlock are not mamzerim in Jewish law and bear no stigma, unless the marriage would have been prohibited for the reasons above. Children of a married man and a woman who is not his wife are not mamzerim (because the marriage between the parents would not have been prohibited), although children of a married woman and a man who is not her husband are mamzerim (because she could not have married him).

Judaism 101: Marriage

You quote judaism. I quote scripture, the law:

If a man marries a girl who is claimed to be a virgin, and then finds that she is not, “they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her father’s house and there her townsmen shall stone her to death” (Deut. 22:20)

If a man has relations within the walls of a city with a maiden who is betrothed, “you shall bring them both out to the gate of the city and there stone them to death.” (Deut. 22:23) but if they were in the open fields, “the man alone shall die”, because if it was in the open fields, “though the betrothed maiden may have cried out for help, there was no one to come to her aid.” (Deut. 22:25-27)

If the maiden in question is not betrothed, the punishment is different. “The man who had relations with her shall pay the girl’s father fifty silver shekels and take her as his wife, because he has deflowered her. Moreover, he may not divorce her as long as he lives.” (Deut. 22:29)​

A woman simply couldn't hide in Israel of the past. Either she was married and had children, or she was stoned if found not virgin when marrying. This should tell you what the meaning was with the word b a s t a r d. (the program doesn't like the work, thus double spaced.)

 

[Rival]

You quote judaism. I quote scripture, the law:

If a man marries a girl who is claimed to be a virgin, and then finds that she is not, “they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her father’s house and there her townsmen shall stone her to death” (Deut. 22:20)

If a man has relations within the walls of a city with a maiden who is betrothed, “you shall bring them both out to the gate of the city and there stone them to death.” (Deut. 22:23) but if they were in the open fields, “the man alone shall die”, because if it was in the open fields, “though the betrothed maiden may have cried out for help, there was no one to come to her aid.” (Deut. 22:25-27)

If the maiden in question is not betrothed, the punishment is different. “The man who had relations with her shall pay the girl’s father fifty silver shekels and take her as his wife, because he has deflowered her. Moreover, he may not divorce her as long as he lives.” (Deut. 22:29)​

A woman simply couldn't hide in Israel of the past. Either she was married and had children, or she was stoned if found not virgin when marrying. This should tell you what the meaning was with the word b a s t a r d. (the program doesn't like the work, thus double spaced.)

Why would any of this make her child a mamzer? The union isn't forbidden.

 

[Grandliseur]

Why would any of this make her child a mamzer? The union isn't forbidden.

If the woman when found not to be virgin when marrying has to be stoned, that kind of makes unmarried children impossible - don't you think?

It would therefore be reasonable to conclude that anyone caught having pre--marital sex would extremely quickly get married.
Today's customs are not those of the past.
I just go by the logic of scripture.

 

[Grandliseur]

Children born out of wedlock are not mamzerim in Jewish law and bear no stigma,

A lot of water has gone under the bridge since the Mosaic Law was written. I am sure adjustments were made as needed. Some adjustments were also bringing the wrath of God.
I just try to say what scripture says.

Here is the dictionary on the word:
bas·tard
ˈb a s t ə r d/
noun

1. 1.
   archaicderogatory
   a person born of parents not married to each other.
   synonyms: illegitimate child, child born out of wedlock; More
   
   

 

[Rival]

If the woman when found not to be virgin when marrying has to be stoned, that kind of makes unmarried children impossible - don't you think?

It would therefore be reasonable to conclude that anyone caught having pre--marital sex would extremely quickly get married.
Today's customs are not those of the past.
I just go by the logic of scripture.

Premarital sex is an ambiguous topic in Jewish philosophy. It is not considered a forbidden union by the Torah. A girl who is betrothed and has sex during this period is considered an adulterer, which is what the verse is talking about.

A lot of water has gone under the bridge since the Mosaic Law was written. I am sure adjustments were made as needed. Some adjustments were also bringing the wrath of God.
I just try to say what scripture says.

Here is the dictionary on the word:
bas·tard
ˈb a s t ə r d/
noun

1. 1.
   archaicderogatory
   a person born of parents not married to each other.
   synonyms: illegitimate child, child born out of wedlock; More

This is not the Jewish definition. It never has been. I've already given you the Jewish definition. This is the Western Christian definition.

 

[Grandliseur]

Premarital sex is an ambiguous topic in Jewish philosophy. It is not considered a forbidden union by the Torah. A girl who is betrothed and has sex during this period is considered an adulterer, which is what the verse is talking about.

This is not the Jewish definition. It never has been. I've already given you the Jewish definition. This is the Western Christian definition.

In which case, this question must be given over to a scholar of antiquities to see if perhaps such may know exactly what was what.

The scriptures on stoning made it clear that a non virgin would be stoned when marrying. This makes having children outside marriage fairly impossible.
If your logic works differently, I cannot help that. Naturally, you have the right to disagree.

 

[Rival]

In which case, this question must be given over to a scholar of antiquities to see if perhaps such may know exactly what was what.

The scriptures on stoning made it clear that a non virgin would be stoned when marrying. This makes having children outside marriage fairly impossible.
If your logic works differently, I cannot help that. Naturally, you have the right to disagree.

@Tumah @Akivah @RabbiO

Will ask resident Jews of different stripes.

(Some will still be on Shabbos)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You quote judaism. I quote scripture, the law: ...

... while maintaining the pretense that your understanding of Jewish law is superior to that of Jewish experts in Jewish law. It is a position that reeks of an almost comical arrogance. Meanwhile, your appeal to an English dictionary is a joke at best. The relevant word in question is "mamzer".