Fear of God?

[waitasec]

I believe he is talking about spiritual death, or damnation, rather than physical death.

so what?
you don't see how the reality of death is the ultimate ultimatum as a tool for fear mongering...


The Bible makes many references to Hell throughout its pages:

Hell is a place of physical agony, mental suffering, loneliness and emotional sorrow. Yeshua described it as a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.(Jude 6; Matt 8:12; Matt 13:42, 50; Matt 25:30.

Hell is a place of insecurity and fear. The Bible describes it as a bottomless pit, an abyss. (Revelation 20:1).

Hell is a place of instability. It is described as a lake of fire. Hell is a place where every moment is lived in uncertainty (Matthew 5:21-23; Revelation 20:15).

Hell is a pit of darkness; totally devoid of light. It is pitch black in hell; there's nothing to distract people from their suffering, sorrow, fears, insecurities, and instability. (2 Peter 3-5).

Hell is a place of dissatisfaction. Yeshua described it as a fire; a fiery furnace. It may be a literal fire that creates a physical sensation of burning or just an overwhelming yearning for God, for love, for joy, for peace, for life that will never be. (Matthew 5:22; Matt 13:42 and 50; Matt 18:8-9; Matt 25:41; Mark 9:43, 47-48) .

Hell is a place of eternal separation from YHWH. Each person who goes to hell will be separated forever from the source of life, the heart of love, the very One for Whom they were created. Hell is a place where your soul will be destroyed (Matthew 7:23 and 10:27-29).

source
What and Where is Hell?

I don't disagree with you here, except for on one point. The bible does not say that man cannot DO good, it says that "there are none good but God". There is a difference. I also believe that there is no such thing as a bad person. Men can do much good or bad of their own free will. This life is a probationary state, we do not become good or bad until God deems us good or bad at final judgement. Hence, we are not to judge others.

genesis 8:21
Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood

mark 7:21
For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts...

can you tell me where in the bible it says god hopes in us and has faith in his creation?

You should check out Mormonism, it is the softer side of christianity. The non-believers don't have too much to worry about.

you lost me here, it seems you lack the understanding of what it means to have integrity...

 

[waitasec]

Are you asking because you want to know?

no. i just want to understand where pagan buddhist is coming from

 

[Christian Gnosis]

was jesus the messiah?

If by the messiah you mean the one the true God gave the people of Israel "good dreams" about- so to speak, then yes. Jesus was the one who would come, but they didn't know what sort of messiah he would be. They believed he'd be a warrior king because that was the type of mindset their god had put them into, a war-like mindset.

 

[waitasec]

If by the messiah you mean the one the true God gave the people of Israel "good dreams" about- so to speak, then yes. Jesus was the one who would come, but they didn't know what sort of messiah he would be. They believed he'd be a warrior king because that was the type of mindset their god had put them into, a war-like mindset.

you lost me. isn't the wrathful vengeful god of the OT jesus?
jesus is god, right?

 

[waitasec]

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools[a] despise wisdom and instruction.

Footnotes:
Proverbs 1:7 The Hebrew words rendered fool in Proverbs, and often elsewhere in the Old Testament, denote a person who is morally deficient.

again i ask, if the bible claims this as truth, what moral act can a believer in god do that a non-believer can't.

this line of thinking only perpetuates division...
i've witnessed how believers think they are morally superior and therefore impose their religious beliefs on the inalienable rights of others.
as i have always said; if your belief in god gets you through the day, good for you, just don't act as though you are morally superior, because you're not by any means. which causes me going through my day a lot harder than it has to be.

 

[spanjo]

so what?
you don't see how the reality of death is the ultimate ultimatum as a tool for fear mongering...

You are missing the point.
Do you believe in spiritual law? How about physical law?

genesis 8:21
Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood

mark 7:21
For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts...

can you tell me where in the bible it says god hopes in us and has faith in his creation?

It is really easy to twist scripture. I can show you thousands of passages of scripture that say otherwise. Yes, evil thoughts come from our hearts, so do good ones.

You want proof? You already have it but refuse to accept it. He gave His only begotten son, knowing that he would suffer greatly for the cause of man. Does that not show hope in mankind?! Would God have offered His son if he had no faith in us?!

 

[spanjo]

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools[a] despise wisdom and instruction.

Footnotes:
Proverbs 1:7 The Hebrew words rendered fool in Proverbs, and often elsewhere in the Old Testament, denote a person who is morally deficient.

again i ask, if the bible claims this as truth, what moral act can a believer in god do that a non-believer can't.

I don't understand what you are getting at here? Where does it say that a non-believer can do no good? It says that fools despise wisdom and instruction, morally deficient or not. Do you deny this?

 

[waitasec]

You are missing the point.
Do you believe in spiritual law? How about physical law?

please explain spiritual law...
physical law, as in how? that we die.

It is really easy to twist scripture. I can show you thousands of passages of scripture that say otherwise.

i already asked you to...so where does the say that god believes and hopes in his creation?

You want proof? You already have it but refuse to accept it. He gave His only begotten son, knowing that he would suffer greatly for the cause of man. Does that not show hope in mankind?! Would God have offered His son if he had no faith in us?!

there is no proof. i would expect, if there was a god, that it would be straightforward and not as ambiguous and contradictory as the bible portrays him to be.
and if there was a god we would all experience god objectionably rather than subjectionably (if that's a word). how many versions of christianity is there? how many different religions are there...too many because there is no way god has revealed himself to any one true religion...

You want proof? You already have it but refuse to accept it.

your understanding of what it means to live with integrity is lacking. do you know what i mean?

 

[waitasec]

I don't understand what you are getting at here? Where does it say that a non-believer can do no good? It says that fools despise wisdom and instruction, morally deficient or not. Do you deny this?

thats why i added the footnote...i'm sorry i didn't give you a reference
it's from the NIV...
should we get into translation too?
i'm game if you are.

Footnotes:
Proverbs 1:7 The Hebrew words rendered fool in Proverbs, and often elsewhere in the Old Testament, denote a person who is morally deficient.

if i don't fear the lord i am morally deficient.
if this were true, what moral act can i not do that you can?

 

[spanjo]

I am not going to play your games anymore. What good would it do to show you a passage of scripture that you don't believe in anyway? If you want proof outside of scripture, something tangible, that shows that he has faith in you, just open your eyes. Are you in hell? I didn't think so; he still has hope in you!

your understanding of what it means to live with integrity is lacking. do you know what i mean?

I understand integrity just fine, if by integrity you mean "adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty (dictionary.com). However, you are right, I am lacking integrity. Is there a man living who isn't lacking integrity? I don't claim to be better than you.

 

[waitasec]

You want proof? You already have it but refuse to accept it. He gave His only begotten son, knowing that he would suffer greatly for the cause of man. Does that not show hope in mankind?! Would God have offered His son if he had no faith in us?!

the gospels are highly suspect, irreconcilable and vague.
jesus claims he came to fulfill the law, does that mean he can break it?
looks like he couldn't even though he his god for pete's sake, he had to commit suicide to atone for our sins...
he did disrespect his own mother, however, then the entire idea of fulfilling the law is debunked...

 

[waitasec]

I am not going to play your games anymore. What good would it do to show you a passage of scripture that you don't believe in anyway? If you want proof outside of scripture, something tangible, that shows that he has faith in you, just open your eyes. Are you in hell? I didn't think so; he still has hope in you!


I understand integrity just fine, if by integrity you mean "adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty (dictionary.com). However, you are right, I am lacking integrity. Is there a man living who isn't lacking integrity? I don't claim to be better than you.

i'm not playing games. i am here to debate. can you back up your claims?

integrity as in...
honesty; freedom from corrupting influence or motive

 

[spanjo]

thats why i added the footnote...i'm sorry i didn't give you a reference
it's from the NIV...
should we get into translation too?
i'm game if you are.

Footnotes:
Proverbs 1:7 The Hebrew words rendered fool in Proverbs, and often elsewhere in the Old Testament, denote a person who is morally deficient.

if i don't fear the lord i am morally deficient.
if this were true, what moral act can i not do that you can?

We are all morally deficient!
Once again, where does it say that a non-believer can do no good?
You are inferring that all non-believers despise wisdom and instruction?

 

[waitasec]

We are all morally deficient!
Once again, where does it say that a non-believer can do no good?
You are inferring that all non-believers despise wisdom and instruction?

the thread is what?
the fear of god...the morally deficient does not fear god...i don't know how else to put it...

You are inferring that all non-believers despise wisdom and instruction?

from god...

 

[spanjo]

integrity as in...
honesty; freedom from corrupting influence or motive

Either way, I don't claim to have perfect integrity. Do you?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

because of john 3:16
that is what i am refuting.
i'm only pointing out the contradictions...
conditional vs. unconditional and the fear mongering of god..

don't understand what you're getting at?

If anything, John 3:16 proves unconditional love. It starts: "For God so loved the world, he gave..." He gave because of love, not as a condition of it.

 

[waitasec]

Either way, I don't claim to have perfect integrity. Do you?

of course not. when you make a statement like this one

You want proof? You already have it but refuse to accept it.

how can you stand there and say i refuse to accept proof?

 

[waitasec]

If anything, John 3:16 proves unconditional love. It starts: "For God so loved the world, he gave..." He gave because of love, not as a condition of it.

'for god so loved the world that he gave his son to those that believe in him'
is how i see it...
can you see how?

 

[spanjo]

the thread is what?
the fear of god...the morally deficient does not fear god...i don't know how else to put it...


from god...

My point is what?
Those who fear God are morally deficient also...I don't know how else to put it.

This scripture is based on the premise that God is real, and is the source of all truth. Hypothetically in your case, lets say God is real, would you not be morally deficient if you despised wisdom and instruction from God? I don't see what your problem is here?
Does it mean that you can't still do good? No. Does it mean that you are totally corrupt? No. Does it mean that God loves me more than you? No. It simply means that you are morally deficient in one area of your life, where I on the other hand, might be morally deficient in another. Get it?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

'for god so loved the world that he gave his son to those that believe in him'
is how i see it...
can you see how?

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16 NIV)

Not 'to those that believe in him'. Not 'because people believed in him'. Both would imply conditions. God's love existed before, during and after. That is unconditional.