Fear of God?

[waitasec]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16 NIV)

Not 'to those that believe in him'. Not 'because people believed in him'. Both would imply conditions. God's love existed before, during and after. That is unconditional.

here is where you need to step back...

that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

there is the condition. belief.
we are talking about faith right?
belief is the condition.
where in the bible does it say gods love is unconditional?

 

[spanjo]

how can you stand there and say i refuse to accept proof?

You are right, and I apologize. To me, the evidence is overwhelming, to you it may not be so. However, this debate is going to get us nowhere, because it appears that neither of us are coming from the point of seeking understanding, rather proving the other person wrong. So, I politely back out. We could each back up our claims until we are blue-in-the face and still be at square one.

 

[waitasec]

My point is what?
Those who fear God are morally deficient also...I don't know how else to put it.

ha ha...

i know. why then do the believers in god believe they have the right to infringe on the inalienable rights of others, not that they are they only ones that do so by any means, and use their moral superiority as justification?

This scripture is based on the premise that God is real, and is the source of all truth. Hypothetically in your case, lets say God is real, would you not be morally deficient if you despised wisdom and instruction from God? I don't see what your problem is here?

either you believe the bible is real or not. i don't. you do.
so who is morally deficient? by this standard no one can say, right?

Does it mean that you can't still do good? No. Does it mean that you are totally corrupt? No. Does it mean that God loves me more than you? No. It simply means that you are morally deficient in one are of your life, where I on the other hand, might be morally deficient in another. Get it?

but if we are both morally deficient you shouldn't be able to do moral acts that i cannot. i don't fear god, you do...we are both equally capable of doing moral acts.
this standard the bible holds for moral deficiency is for lack of a better word, lame.

 

[waitasec]

You are right, and I apologize. To me, the evidence is overwhelming, to you it may not be so. However, this debate is going to get us nowhere, because it appears that neither of us are coming from the point of seeking understanding, rather proving the other person wrong. So, I politely back out. We could each back up our claims until we are blue-in-the face and still be at square one.

no need to apologize...it was a good round

 

[spanjo]

ha ha...

i know. why then do the believers in god believe they have the right to infringe on the inalienable rights of others, not that they are they only ones that do so by any means, and use their moral superiority as justification?



either you believe the bible is real or not. i don't. you do.
so who is morally deficient? by this standard no one can say, right?



but if we are both morally deficient you shouldn't be able to do moral acts that i cannot. i don't fear god, you do...we are both equally capable of doing moral acts.
this standard the bible holds for moral deficiency is for lack of a better word, lame.

i know. why then do the believers in god believe they have the right to infringe on the inalienable rights of others, not that they are they only ones that do so by any means, and use their moral superiority as justification?

I already answered that, because we are morally deficient. Be careful not to over-generalize "believers" here.

We all have different strengths and weaknesses. I choose to do moral acts that you choose not to, and vise-versa. It's a matter of choice rather than CAN or CAN'T. You can do whatever good you choose.

It's lame, unless it's true!!! The end

 

[tumbleweed41]

A god who has such human things is in fact not a god at all, but a human. Why do you think god would have such human traits?

Because man has instilled himself into his concept of God.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

here is where you need to step back...

that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

there is the condition. belief.
we are talking about faith right?
belief is the condition.
where in the bible does it say gods love is unconditional?

Belief is the condition to have 'eternal life'. Not to be loved, but to have eternal life. Being loved is not the same as having eternal life. It takes more than just love to get you there, which is where your free will comes in.
You must chose life in order to have life. God gave us both life and death, the blessing and the affliction, so that we may chose life. Not to suffer, not to writhe for long enough so we get into heaven. So that we can chose life instead of death.
Believing is the choosing. Choosing is the believing. You cannot have one without the other.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

Because man has instilled himself into his concept of God.

Exactly. Such a god is one to be learned from, not worshiped.

 

[Penumbra]

To prevent the derailing of a thread on the merits of biological evolution, I am re-posting the following quote here...

It is my strong opinion that a God who demands fear from his followers is unworthy of worship, and in fact, reflects an anthropomorphic God that contains the very human destructive emotions of vengeance, hate, jealousy and low self esteem.

Yes, that sort of god embodies some of the worst aspects of mankind.

I, for one, like his sadist nature and find him no different than any other god that is worshiped.

You like his sadist nature?

Why?

 

[Blackheart]

It is my strong opinion that a God who demands fear from his followers is unworthy of worship, and in fact, reflects an anthropomorphic God that contains the very human destructive emotions of vengeance, hate, jealousy and low self esteem.

My God is a Jealous God. Vengance is mine sayeth the Lord.

This could be a whole new thread as it represents a big problem with peoples perception of God. Who told you God is fluffy? When some people read or percieve God being responsible for something that seems destructive they feel that there is something wrong. In their minds God couldnt allow something to happen to them that they dont like. Sometimes its used as evidence that there cant be a God. Certainly in these days man is so preoccupied with a notion that God should behave in a certain way that they approve of but let me tell you something....

The plan was always that we serve God not the other way around.

If there is only one true God then there is no appeal process so we better get used to the notion that he is in charge...he is the master...if you choose not to believe in him or not worship him it makes no difference to the status quo in his universe; he is still the boss of all bosses and you cant escape that by simply saying that you dont agree with his methods. You can like or dont like, either way you aint changing it and you will always be at his mercy regardless of how much you dont want to be included. The day that we get rid of this idea that he is our fluffy friend who is there to do what we tell him when we tell him to do it will be the day that we are truely humble.

 

[Penumbra]

My God is a Jealous God. Vengance is mine sayeth the Lord.

This could be a whole new thread as it represents a big problem with peoples perception of God. Who told you God is fluffy? When some people read or percieve God being responsible for something that seems destructive they feel that there is something wrong. In their minds God couldnt allow something to happen to them that they dont like. Sometimes its used as evidence that there cant be a God. Certainly in these days man is so preoccupied with a notion that God should behave in a certain way that they approve of but let me tell you something....

The plan was always that we serve God not the other way around.

If there is only one true God then there is no appeal process so we better get used to the notion that he is in charge...he is the master...if you choose not to believe in him or not worship him it makes no difference to the status quo in his universe; he is still the boss of all bosses and you cant escape that by simply saying that you dont agree with his methods. You can like or dont like, either way you aint changing it and you will always be at his mercy regardless of how much you dont want to be included. The day that we get rid of this idea that he is our fluffy friend who is there to do what we tell him when we tell him to do it will be the day that we are truely humble.

Are you aware that your conception of deity sounds rather like an imperfect, childish dictator? It's an anthropomorphized version of a human, and not a particularly self-actualized human either.

If reasonable, responsible, intelligent people can rise above such petty behavior, what leads you to believe that a god would be stuck in such ridiculous behavior?

 

[Christian Gnosis]

you lost me. isn't the wrathful vengeful god of the OT jesus?
jesus is god, right?

In Gnostic view- no. Jesus and Jehovah are not the same. Jehovah is an evil demon lord named Yaltabaoth, and Jesus comes forth from the wholeness, the true aeon, the Father of light, as the NT says- in whom there is no darkness at all.

 

[Christian Gnosis]

The Gospel of Judas (Gnostic)- One day he was with his disciples in Judea, and he found them gathered together and seated in pious observance. When he [approached] his disciples,

[34] gathered together and seated and offering a prayer of thanksgiving over the bread, [he] laughed.

The disciples said to [him], “Master, why are you laughing at [our] prayer of
thanksgiving? We have done what is right.”

He answered and said to them, &#8220;I am not laughing at you. <You> are not doing this
because of your own will but because it is through this that your god [will be] praised.&#8221;

They said, &#8220;Master, you are the son of our god.&#8221;

Jesus said to them, &#8220;How do you know me? Truly say to you, no generation of the
people that are among you will know me.&#8221;

When his disciples heard this, they started getting angry and infuriated and began
blaspheming against him in their hearts.

When Jesus observed their lack of [understanding, he said] to them, &#8220;Why has this
agitation led you to anger? Your god who is within you has provoked you to anger [within] your souls.

[Let] any one of you who is [strong enough] among human beings bring out the perfect human and stand before my face.&#8221;

 

[waitasec]

Belief is the condition to have 'eternal life'. Not to be loved, but to have eternal life. Being loved is not the same as having eternal life. It takes more than just love to get you there, which is where your free will comes in.
You must chose life in order to have life. God gave us both life and death, the blessing and the affliction, so that we may chose life. Not to suffer, not to writhe for long enough so we get into heaven. So that we can chose life instead of death.
Believing is the choosing. Choosing is the believing. You cannot have one without the other.

if you love someone would you set up a condition where they would be tormented as retaliation for lack of faith in you?
maybe you would, but i most certainly won't.
i didn't choose life, it chose me because i am alive.
it's the mystery of death that can feed fear of it, nonetheless we all die...

 

[strikeviperMKII]

if you love someone would you set up a condition where they would be tormented as retaliation for lack of faith in you?
maybe you would, but i most certainly won't.
i didn't choose life, it chose me because i am alive.
it's the mystery of death that can feed fear of it, nonetheless we all die...

Without death, we cannot know life. That being said, one can live their life, but die without having lived at all.

Tormented because they do not believe in you? Because they chose not to do something? You seem to be under the impression that God is the one causing the torment. This is not the case. We are far to good at tormenting ourselves for God to step foot in that arena.

 

[waitasec]

Without death, we cannot know life.

how is that exactly? if you are meaning one cannot measure happiness unless one experiences sadness, but once you're dead well ah, you're dead.

That being said, one can live their life, but die without having lived at all.

i would say, if you are living for the after life you're already dead
or fear has taken life away from the living.

Tormented because they do not believe in you? Because they chose not to do something? You seem to be under the impression that God is the one causing the torment. This is not the case. We are far to good at tormenting ourselves for God to step foot in that arena.

remember... whosoever believes in him shall have ever lasting life and will not perish. that is the condition or rather the ultimatum to avoid perishing.
god is causing the torment...didn't god create this consequence?

 

[waitasec]

In Gnostic view- no. Jesus and Jehovah are not the same. Jehovah is an evil demon lord named Yaltabaoth, and Jesus comes forth from the wholeness, the true aeon, the Father of light, as the NT says- in whom there is no darkness at all.

ahh, i see. i am not familiar with this religion. thank you for sharing.

 

[Blackheart]

Are you aware that your conception of deity sounds rather like an imperfect, childish dictator? It's an anthropomorphized version of a human, and not a particularly self-actualized human either.

If reasonable, responsible, intelligent people can rise above such petty behavior, what leads you to believe that a god would be stuck in such ridiculous behavior?

From a human perspective you could be right but if your God what is there to rise above? Imagine telling the Sun that it is wrong for shining too brightly on a sunny day. You can tell it what you like, complaining that its making the world too hot, explain that you cant sleep with all this heat and brightness but when youve finished you realise that the Sun is actually bigger than you. It is you that has to adapt to the Sun as it is the Sun that sets the rules and not the other way around.

 

[tumbleweed41]

From a human perspective you could be right but if your God what is there to rise above? Imagine telling the Sun that it is wrong for shining too brightly on a sunny day. You can tell it what you like, complaining that its making the world too hot, explain that you cant sleep with all this heat and brightness but when youve finished you realise that the Sun is actually bigger than you. It is you that has to adapt to the Sun as it is the Sun that sets the rules and not the other way around.

Yet the sun in an inorganic, non-living ball of gas that has no self-determination or will. It follows the natural path allowed by physics and is unable to affect its own behavior.
It does not willingly provide light and heat for our solar system, these are only byproducts of what it is. One of billions of stars in out universe.
Is this truly representative of your concept of God?

 

[tumbleweed41]

If there is only one true God then there is no appeal process so we better get used to the notion that he is in charge...he is the master...if you choose not to believe in him or not worship him it makes no difference to the status quo in his universe; he is still the boss of all bosses and you cant escape that by simply saying that you dont agree with his methods. You can like or dont like, either way you aint changing it and you will always be at his mercy regardless of how much you dont want to be included. The day that we get rid of this idea that he is our fluffy friend who is there to do what we tell him when we tell him to do it will be the day that we are truely humble.

It seems that a Fascist Dictator is closer to attaining godlike qualities than the most benevolent of governments.
At least according to this concept of God.